scoobyp1

iTrader: (4)

anybody know whats the best route to take to lower a P1 ?

Daz34

Coilovers, as it is already pretty low.

scoobyp1

iTrader: (4)

prices ? decent makes ?

Daz34

Scoobysport

Leda

DMS Gold

All of these are in the £1200-£1500 range.
Prodrive also do a Pro suspension set up which I think is around £2000

I would personally take a good look at the new scoobysport one.

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Scoobysport does look interesting and a good price too. Not sure where you got it's in the £1200-£1500 region tho.... it's only £893 .

Tony.

scoobyp1

iTrader: (4)

does look a very good set up doesnt it and for a very good price. I think the price of £1200+ includes the little extra's you need(bushes & so) plus fitting and set up

Daz34

You get a good warranty with it as well which is appealing. Be interesting to hear off someone who has had it fitted.

scoobyp1

iTrader: (4)

its a toss up between this or a nice brake set up for me

Daz34

I found the standard brakes on a P1 unacceptable. Some AP Racing 4/6 pots would definately be my first chosen upgrade.
IMHO the P1 looks low enough. I would just take it to Powerstation for bumpsteer removal/geometry/solid links.

scoobyp1

iTrader: (4)

i have had the car since new and have said for the past 2 yrs i would go to powerstation for this mod and to this day i still havent found time. Whats the going rate for this ?
Ive got 18's OZ Super Legs in gold and a nice HKS Super Drager.
I want to do the hoses aswell under bonnet.
Brakes do sound the more sensible choice though. I was offered 330mm AP 4pots with pads and braided hoses for under a grand. Should i snap his hand off ?

Fat Boy

Brakes first.Standard ones are crap - I killed mine in 800 miles on the road. If AP kit is new or in good condition then its not a bad price.

Suspension is surprisingly good as standard - Mike Wood does know his stuff so don't mess it up by overlowering it. I've just had the front spoiler resprayed on mine and refitted loosely while waiting for a new kit of fittings. It must be hanging less than half an inch lower than normal and I now can't get over any speed bumps, so be warned. Also the higher rear end (or Rake) is there for a purpose, don't disturb that unless you're an all show and no go/ M*x P*wer merchant.

Have a look at this thread :

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=283594

[Edited by Fat Boy - 1/1/2004 2:52:35 PM]

911

Fat Boy, I have an STi V3 with every Whiteline mod on it and set to their spec for suspension angles etc. Is the nose down rake that critical to a Scooby as mine has non. My race set 911 MUST have 1 deg nose down, critical to the 911!
Any further thoughts?
Graham.

Fat Boy

Graham
I'm hardly an expert and your car is probably fairly modified, but I believe that it's purpose is to create some roll oversteer to (to some extent) balance out the inherent understeer, and can be used in conjunction with a stiffer rear anti roll bar to get the back moving. I would guess in the porker it might be for a slightly different reason; to get the weight shifting onto the wheel with most traction,ie the outside rear one?

Simon de Banke/Webmaster is your man. Email him, or post a thread up such as "Rake. Is it really necessary?" Knowing Simon, he won't be able to help himself

Best of luck

john

Just found this using search,
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?ThreadID=198864 ,

which basically contradicts everything that I've said and Damian certainly knows his stuff! Doesn't explain why the P1 is setup with such pronounced rake from the start though. Don Palmer drove/spanked my P1 at Bruntingthorpe when it was almost new - it was the first one he had driven at that point and he said he was very impressed with the set up and handling out of the box, given that it's basically a uk transmission. One of the things he attributed the good handling to was the rake. Me , i just nodded knowingly and then went away to find out what the hell rake was....

[Edited by Fat Boy - 1/2/2004 10:50:25 PM]

johnfelstead

If you read what Damien says carefully, he is actually saying negative rake increases understeer by forcing the front to washout earlier than the rear, but it makes corner transition easier to control because its slow and stable.

This isnt what you want in a performant car IMHO. What you are looking for is crisp turn in and a more responsive chassis, this of course means you have to work harder at the limits, but the response is vastly improved. Like everything car related, you have to compromise to get the best for your particular needs.

You have to remember the Prodrive Live cars are setup to be easy to drive for Mr Average who will jump into an STi, maybe for the first time. What they need is slow transition response, not a lively pointy car.

I personaly find running a small amount of positive rake helps sharpen the chassis charicteristics, it definately understeers more with negative rake or a level chasis.


[Edited by johnfelstead - 1/5/2004 2:52:28 PM]

911

John, been working so no quality time to study the thread yet.
Is positive rake nose up or down compared to the rear?
Graham.

scoobyp1

iTrader: (4)

so much for lowering my P1

johnfelstead

positive rake is rear end higher than the front.

Fat Boy

I'd have thought it's pretty clear. Lower away if you don't care how it handles....

scoobyp1

iTrader: (4)

fair comment, staying as it is then

JIM THEO

Just for the record the old Prodrive Sport suspension kit for the MY00 Impreza lowers the car almost the same (if my memory serves me right) front-rear while the Professional Prodrive suspension kit that is much better (believe me I had it in my car) lowers more than 2,5 cm front and about 1,5-1,8 cm rear keeping the nose down probably for killing understeer while it includes a smaller (yes smaller!) rear anti roll bar as rear Prodrive springs are much harder than fronts (proportional to front-rear factory springs).
So it's obvious if you want a more tail happy car keep nose down without lowering more than 2,5-3 cm the front (personal opinion) although the use of your car is different from ours!
Hope this helps you.
JIM

911

Jim, accepting my STiV3 is for hill climb use where understeer is a real time consuming way to corner the car, the nose down attitude sounds good to me. I am surprised about the Prodrive spring rate. I have always run the rear rate 80% of the front and thicker rear bar set stiffest rate. Seems you say the opposite!
Graham.

johnfelstead

I think you are misunderstanding what Jim wrote, either that or i am.

I think he means the rears have gone up more than the front as a percentage, but are still softer than the front.

My own car runs 325Lb front, 225Lb rear with 22mm F/R ARB's, rear set to its stiffest setting. Adjusting the dampers makes a big diference to the handling, on a very tight course i have run the rear with higher damping than the front to get the back to slide more, i normally keep a higher front to rear damper rate though.

JIM THEO

Exactly, as I understand it it's better to work with harder springs rather with bigger ARBars thus you keep each wheel "independent".
My old MY00 had ridicilus understeer from the factory compared with my new WRX03 but Prodrive Prof. suspension kit made remarkable difference along with my own alignment settings (see Whiteline = max camber front/zero toe, factory camber rear/1mm toe out) to the car's behaviour, bear in mind that I prefer oversteer in the end so my opinion is a bit subjective.
It was completely predictable compared to what I thought before I installed the suspension, and NO, there was some understeer but just to keep thinks under control as sharp oversteer is dangerous for every day driving, wet roads etc
When I changed the Prodrive smaller rear anti roll bar (actually if I remember right it was a Forester rear ARB or at least it had a Subaru code on it) the change in behaviour wasn't big and mainly noticable on wet road/lift off throttle conditions and I could say it was better for my likings but as I said before I prefer an oversteering car. Worth to mention here ALK made minimal if not difference at all in my car!
In my new car I already changed the rear ARB for a Whiteline 24mm adjustable one (Whiteline alignment settings also) but what I end up is that if you want a easier to drive car it's better to have harder springs rather bigger bars and Prodrive knows his job much better from us...
JIM

johnfelstead

That depends on the roads you are driving too really Jim. My car is much better on bumpy B roads with the stock ARB's installed, but on smooth surfaces or track its much better with the 22mm bars attached.

I also find you have to fine tune the balance of the bars front rear, with the rear bar on its soft or medium setting it handles best with a stock STi front bar, but if i set the rear to its stiffest setting you want the thicker 22mm front bar to balance the chasis.

Suspension is one of those very subjective areas of car setup where no answer is right or wrong, it always depends on the use and driving style required.

911

John, you been copying my car?
That commentry is exactly as my hill climber using Whiteline settings the technician at Ralliart said were 'mad'.
The ALK seemed to do nothing, i used to race round bends on full lock....
This is why I fitted the MRT top mounts.
This is all tempered by how you like a car to behave, especially when pushing hard with the trees just 2 metres away!
Good thread.
Regards to all, Graham.

johnfelstead

which bit Graham? I have played about a fair bit with the suspension setup and have a pretty good understanding of what works for me now. It usually impresses people at the nurburgring anyway.

I have never read the whiteline setup info so not sure what you are refering to in terms of setup?

911

On the Whiteline site they have their Project cars. One of their own 'rally' cars is rather extreme(their term) and they give the geometry 'set-up' of that car. After some email discussion with their tech guys I adoped the settings except for the spring rates which realy were exteme, 500/450 lbs Fr'Rr.
I have the same rates as you which is a great blend for the 3000 miles I do on the road and 11 hill climbs each year.

I live with the 22 mm bars. You have the luxury of DMS struts which I have driven in a friends RA on a sprint track. They are so much better than the AVO's.

Whiteline say they cannot help/sell me anymore for the STi, it has it all! This is why I went for the MRT top mounts to try to go further, and they realy help.
Graham.

johnfelstead

My own car runs on Leda's, which on the whole is very good. The main reason i changed from the stock inverted strut STi setup was due to them overheating at the nurburgring, i was pretty impressed with them as an out of the box setup. The good thing about the Leda is they are consistent and when you adjust them, you feel the diference, some dampers i have tried just dont react to changes. I do around 25K miles on the road with maybe 5K on track each year.

I have driven a couple of rally Impreza's on DMS 50mm, on everything from snow, gravel and mud to driving non stop 1200 miles each way from Seattle to southern California. It's pretty good stuff, if a little bouncy on the road with forest rally settings.

The best i have tried to date has been 3 way adjustable Proflex, but thats very expensive and really out of the league of the average road car, both in terms of cost and setup complexity.

superstring

Attn: JIM THEO

JIM, from the above quote, it would seem you've had the opportunity to try both Prodrive kits on a "Classic". Is that true?

Thanks!

John

JIM THEO

Yes but not in my car...!
I had the Professional kit and drove on a track day a friend's MY99 with the standard kit. Standard kit is only for road use IMO.
It's strange though that as the standard Prodrive kit Eibach Pro kit lowers the same rear.
JIM