Another Clifford question
24 February 2002, 12:40 PM
#1
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Max, or anyone - can I manually adjust the 'outside the car zone' of the dual zone proxy sensor on a Concept 500? Im concerned that the alarm will be going off a lot at work.
Following my previous long post, I have as good as decided to go for the Clifford.
Thanks to everyone for your advise.
Following my previous long post, I have as good as decided to go for the Clifford.
Thanks to everyone for your advise.
24 February 2002, 02:50 PM
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Yes 
The alarm engineer will have to do it though.
My Concept 500 prox sensor has never gone off at work even though people walk past the car quite often.
It does work a treat when people stand next to it for too long though
Nathan..
The alarm engineer will have to do it though.
My Concept 500 prox sensor has never gone off at work even though people walk past the car quite often.
It does work a treat when people stand next to it for too long though
Nathan..
24 February 2002, 06:26 PM
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TDC, I've got the 600 and there is an option to disable both the exterior and interior parts of the proximity sensor, I assume it's the same on the 500??
First press disables the exterior, the second the interior.
[Edited by boultsy - 2/24/2002 6:29:39 PM]
First press disables the exterior, the second the interior.
[Edited by boultsy - 2/24/2002 6:29:39 PM]
25 February 2002, 01:20 AM
#5
dont know on a 500 but on a 50x u go into valet mode via switch and 5 latched and 5 momentary turn off ign activate alarm two side and one 3rd and ive forgot oh yes then button 2 and 3 - up and down and when done press button 1, this is probably total bo!!ocks to you so take it to a dealer or you could mess it up like i have with this post.
[Edited by LeeMac - 2/25/2002 1:22:08 AM]
[Edited by LeeMac - 2/25/2002 1:22:08 AM]
26 February 2002, 12:14 PM
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As mentioned above, on the C500 and above you are able to remotely turn off the exterior only or the exterior and interior zones of the dual zone proximity sensor should the need arise. Adjustments are best left to the dealer which is done through the master remote. For Thatcham reasons, the procedure has been omitted from the user manual as with a Thatcham system, the user is not allowed access to any sensor adjustments. To ensure the best and most stable coverage by the proximity sensor, it needs to be sited in the optimum place, and for pretty much every passenger car, imprezas included, this is smack bang in the centre of the car on the transmission hump just in front of the rear seat.
On the old C50X it was a similar remote operation to disable one or both of the sensor zones, but a slightly more tedious procedure for the dealer (or customer whose friendly dealer had shown them how (-: ) to adjust the sensitivity of them.
On the old C50X it was a similar remote operation to disable one or both of the sensor zones, but a slightly more tedious procedure for the dealer (or customer whose friendly dealer had shown them how (-: ) to adjust the sensitivity of them.
26 February 2002, 09:28 PM
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Max,
You've prompted me into action again ! (God, I can be a pain in the ****!) Your recommendations for the siting of the microwave in the Impreza is incorrect. The microwave emits a field that is deflected by metallic objects, but can radiate through non-metallic material. This is one of the reasons that the "up and over door phenomenon" occurs, with poorly sited/adjusted microwaves. Installing a microwave dead centre in the car would lead to the microwave having blind spots because of the seat frames. Experienced and exhaustive testing has proved that the best place is up in the headlining facing down. This results in the microwave being able to be setup far less sensitive. Gentlemen, if you can picture the the microwave installed in the area that Max suggests, you can appreciate that you would have to adjust the field to come several inches up before entering the "danger zone" - (the area that the nasty little scum bags will come through to gain entry through, this being of course the window,if he can't be bothered to force your locks) If, however the microwave is in the headlining, you are starting right there in the "danger zone". I was discussing this issue only this week with a former colleague who designs installations for OE manufacturers, and he was flabbergasted by the extent to which they would test the chosen microwave siting on their application. I do not have either the time or an oscilloscope to test these products as far as they can, but let's be sure that they have the resources to get it right. There are installations on large/long vehicles that may require two microwaves to ensure adequate protection without the risk of false alarms. There are of of course times when it may not be feasible put a microwave in the headling, put the Subaru would be easy, it would require a little bit more time to route and probably extend the cable, but it most definately is worth going the extra mile for a better nights sleep.
Long live the microwave.
You've prompted me into action again ! (God, I can be a pain in the ****!) Your recommendations for the siting of the microwave in the Impreza is incorrect. The microwave emits a field that is deflected by metallic objects, but can radiate through non-metallic material. This is one of the reasons that the "up and over door phenomenon" occurs, with poorly sited/adjusted microwaves. Installing a microwave dead centre in the car would lead to the microwave having blind spots because of the seat frames. Experienced and exhaustive testing has proved that the best place is up in the headlining facing down. This results in the microwave being able to be setup far less sensitive. Gentlemen, if you can picture the the microwave installed in the area that Max suggests, you can appreciate that you would have to adjust the field to come several inches up before entering the "danger zone" - (the area that the nasty little scum bags will come through to gain entry through, this being of course the window,if he can't be bothered to force your locks) If, however the microwave is in the headlining, you are starting right there in the "danger zone". I was discussing this issue only this week with a former colleague who designs installations for OE manufacturers, and he was flabbergasted by the extent to which they would test the chosen microwave siting on their application. I do not have either the time or an oscilloscope to test these products as far as they can, but let's be sure that they have the resources to get it right. There are installations on large/long vehicles that may require two microwaves to ensure adequate protection without the risk of false alarms. There are of of course times when it may not be feasible put a microwave in the headling, put the Subaru would be easy, it would require a little bit more time to route and probably extend the cable, but it most definately is worth going the extra mile for a better nights sleep.
Long live the microwave.
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27 February 2002, 10:16 AM
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Nick,
Aha, I wondered whether such a topic as microwave sensors may elicit a response from you! Although I haven't probably the experience you have with other brands of such sensor, over the last eight years I've used the Clifford product I've come to understand the dispersion of the fields both of the analogue single zone device and the digitally controlled multiplexed dual-zone item of theirs. There are many instances where I site the single zone sensor in the rooflining as it gives a nigh on perfect coverage of the bulk of the interior while being kept turned relatively low which aids stability, and it is often more of a straightforward job to install here than below. However, with the dual zone item, it's field is more of a 'cone' style dispersion, and having to have the exterior zone turned somewhat higher so it is able to detect beyond the glass, this means it's dispersion will be coming out of the vehicle slanting downwards through the windows toward the ground if it has been mounted in the roof. In this instance, when the external zone is adjusted to detect radar reflective objects immediately outside the window glass for warn-away purposes, it will also be able to detect further along and below a diagonal line from the sensor's position towards the ground which means undesired detections of objects in it's field of vision low down and some way away, say from passing cars, will cause it to have the alarm emit its warn-away noise which would be a constant irritation. Hence, with the dual zone sensor which is by far the most popular sensor I use as it is part of the Concept 500 and 600's specification, I mount this in the position I've mentioned in my earlier posting so that the external zone's area of detection extends outwards and diagonally upwards through the windows so that radar reflective objects moving lower down, for instance passing cars, are not continually triggering the warn away sound. I've also found that this position allows the most even distribution of the field through the metal mesh-like construction of the two front seats to maintain as even as possible front-to-rear spread of the interior zone when the sensor needs to be mounted facing upward. When I have been using the dual zone sensor in vehicles such as Transits and Vitos and many off road vehicles and such like, I've found that having the dual zone sensor up in the roof lining is the favourable site due to the roof being so tall relative to where a person needs to be standing for reliable warn away zone detection, as having the sensor on the floor and having the bottom of the windows so high, the external field would simply be passing straight over their heads leaving them in a 'dead' zone. Also, it goes without saying that this is the favoured position for the single zone sensor.
I realise that OE equipped vehicles have their single zone (as that's all I'm aware they ever are) sensor in the roof as this is the favoured position, because as you say, their is no impedence to the field from surrounding metal objects, and the flat steel roof provides an excellent ground plane external to the sensor's casing, but you may also find (though please don't go quoting me as I'm probably going to be wrong in some cases) that an OE proximity sensor, such as used in many executive cars has also had it's dispersion characteristics somewhat tailored by the particular design of the ground plane on the sensor's pcb and other tracks or metal objects can be used inside it's case to help shape its field of detection, possibly so that it's field is narrower across the width of the vehicle's interior, and broader along the length of the interior to maximise it's coverage. Obviously, with an aftermarket sensor from Clifford, Cobra or whoever, it cannot be designed like this and so it's characteristics will be more general for universal applications, greater ranges of sensitivity adjustment etc.
Anyhow Nick, when I mentioned in my earlier post that "on the impreza the optimum place for the sensor is smack bang in the centre of the car just in front of the rear seat" or words to that effect, I was referring to TCD's situation where he was concerned about possible sensor instability with the dual zone item, and as over the years of using this particular sensor I've come to understand it's dispersion characteristics and other qualities, I've found that this position on road cars is the most suitable, whereas for the single zone sensor I, like you, favour the downward facing roof position, which in tall vehicles such as vans and off roaders, is also more favourable for the dual zone Clifford sensor. If I felt that Clifford's dual zone sensor performed better in the roof position, believe me I'd put it there as I find it easier installing sensors in the roof rather than having to remove centre consoles, seats etc to get a dual zone sensor infront of the rear seat.
Aha, I wondered whether such a topic as microwave sensors may elicit a response from you! Although I haven't probably the experience you have with other brands of such sensor, over the last eight years I've used the Clifford product I've come to understand the dispersion of the fields both of the analogue single zone device and the digitally controlled multiplexed dual-zone item of theirs. There are many instances where I site the single zone sensor in the rooflining as it gives a nigh on perfect coverage of the bulk of the interior while being kept turned relatively low which aids stability, and it is often more of a straightforward job to install here than below. However, with the dual zone item, it's field is more of a 'cone' style dispersion, and having to have the exterior zone turned somewhat higher so it is able to detect beyond the glass, this means it's dispersion will be coming out of the vehicle slanting downwards through the windows toward the ground if it has been mounted in the roof. In this instance, when the external zone is adjusted to detect radar reflective objects immediately outside the window glass for warn-away purposes, it will also be able to detect further along and below a diagonal line from the sensor's position towards the ground which means undesired detections of objects in it's field of vision low down and some way away, say from passing cars, will cause it to have the alarm emit its warn-away noise which would be a constant irritation. Hence, with the dual zone sensor which is by far the most popular sensor I use as it is part of the Concept 500 and 600's specification, I mount this in the position I've mentioned in my earlier posting so that the external zone's area of detection extends outwards and diagonally upwards through the windows so that radar reflective objects moving lower down, for instance passing cars, are not continually triggering the warn away sound. I've also found that this position allows the most even distribution of the field through the metal mesh-like construction of the two front seats to maintain as even as possible front-to-rear spread of the interior zone when the sensor needs to be mounted facing upward. When I have been using the dual zone sensor in vehicles such as Transits and Vitos and many off road vehicles and such like, I've found that having the dual zone sensor up in the roof lining is the favourable site due to the roof being so tall relative to where a person needs to be standing for reliable warn away zone detection, as having the sensor on the floor and having the bottom of the windows so high, the external field would simply be passing straight over their heads leaving them in a 'dead' zone. Also, it goes without saying that this is the favoured position for the single zone sensor.
I realise that OE equipped vehicles have their single zone (as that's all I'm aware they ever are) sensor in the roof as this is the favoured position, because as you say, their is no impedence to the field from surrounding metal objects, and the flat steel roof provides an excellent ground plane external to the sensor's casing, but you may also find (though please don't go quoting me as I'm probably going to be wrong in some cases) that an OE proximity sensor, such as used in many executive cars has also had it's dispersion characteristics somewhat tailored by the particular design of the ground plane on the sensor's pcb and other tracks or metal objects can be used inside it's case to help shape its field of detection, possibly so that it's field is narrower across the width of the vehicle's interior, and broader along the length of the interior to maximise it's coverage. Obviously, with an aftermarket sensor from Clifford, Cobra or whoever, it cannot be designed like this and so it's characteristics will be more general for universal applications, greater ranges of sensitivity adjustment etc.
Anyhow Nick, when I mentioned in my earlier post that "on the impreza the optimum place for the sensor is smack bang in the centre of the car just in front of the rear seat" or words to that effect, I was referring to TCD's situation where he was concerned about possible sensor instability with the dual zone item, and as over the years of using this particular sensor I've come to understand it's dispersion characteristics and other qualities, I've found that this position on road cars is the most suitable, whereas for the single zone sensor I, like you, favour the downward facing roof position, which in tall vehicles such as vans and off roaders, is also more favourable for the dual zone Clifford sensor. If I felt that Clifford's dual zone sensor performed better in the roof position, believe me I'd put it there as I find it easier installing sensors in the roof rather than having to remove centre consoles, seats etc to get a dual zone sensor infront of the rear seat.
27 February 2002, 11:57 AM
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Max,
You've eloquently explained things I didn't know about Cliffords dual zone microwave and for that I am grateful. There are often best case scenarios for different products and it seems that your device does not lend itself to the "normal" installation. It's certainly started a debate though!
You've eloquently explained things I didn't know about Cliffords dual zone microwave and for that I am grateful. There are often best case scenarios for different products and it seems that your device does not lend itself to the "normal" installation. It's certainly started a debate though!
27 February 2002, 02:56 PM
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Yes Nick, I can get a bit long winded (another term for eloquent eh?), especially when I have a quiet afternoon like today doing admin. There's nothing wrong whatsoever with questioning others practices, methods or products as long as it remains civil and there is a purpose, as there may be something to learn from the responses you get as a result of doing so. You never know, now we've had The Proximity Sensor Debate (part 2), one of these days we may get into The Immobilisation Debate or The LED Position Debate. Who knows!
27 February 2002, 07:00 PM
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Nick,
Have you seen my van by chance ? It just so happens that it has a blue LED on the top of the dash! Is this supposed to be cool? If so I'm cool all of a sudden without even realising it. Now, if I can manage to sell that 8 track out the Cortina at the car boot this weekend.......................
And to diversify slightly Max, I'm always up for a healthy debate.
Have you seen my van by chance ? It just so happens that it has a blue LED on the top of the dash! Is this supposed to be cool? If so I'm cool all of a sudden without even realising it. Now, if I can manage to sell that 8 track out the Cortina at the car boot this weekend.......................
And to diversify slightly Max, I'm always up for a healthy debate.
28 February 2002, 04:51 PM
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Ah, a good old extreme brightness blue led with a fresnel ringed cover usually does the trick. Makes it look like a CID raid going on outside your house on a dark night.
I'm looking forward to the next debating session. I guess it'll depend on what I next post which makes sweeping generalisations or includes somewhat blinkered observations on the vehicle security industry (-:
I'm looking forward to the next debating session. I guess it'll depend on what I next post which makes sweeping generalisations or includes somewhat blinkered observations on the vehicle security industry (-:
28 February 2002, 05:40 PM
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Hi Max, not spoke before but read a lot of your posts with interest, especially the one above with regards to positioning of the proximity sensor. Can you comment on the effect of storing CDs in the storage box, or coins in the drinks holder, will this or rather can this, to the best of your knowledge effect the proximity sensor and result in spurious "churping" resulting in false alarms.
Cheers,
boultsy.
Harry, yeh dead pleased with my 600, got to run now, try and post a bit more detail later.
Cheers,
boultsy.
Harry, yeh dead pleased with my 600, got to run now, try and post a bit more detail later.
28 February 2002, 07:14 PM
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Harry,
I know you were addressing Max, but I think he's p$%**d off down the pub for now. As explained in my post further up, metallic objects like money, for sure will effect microwave performance. My advice would be to give all the loose change in the centre console to a poor alarm installer! As for a the CD's, most of mine have a foil surface which could also cause a problem.
I know you were addressing Max, but I think he's p$%**d off down the pub for now. As explained in my post further up, metallic objects like money, for sure will effect microwave performance. My advice would be to give all the loose change in the centre console to a poor alarm installer! As for a the CD's, most of mine have a foil surface which could also cause a problem.
28 February 2002, 07:21 PM
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Interesting comments Nick (actually, I think it was our good ole' Boultsy that was asking - but it's certainly made me think!).
Boultsy - thanks for the tip (yet again!!). I think I'm following in your footsteps in just about every respect!
Cheers, Harry.
PS. Max - Thanks for the input and debate. it's good fo Nick and you to clarify these things for the great unwashed (including me!)....
Boultsy - thanks for the tip (yet again!!). I think I'm following in your footsteps in just about every respect!
Cheers, Harry.
PS. Max - Thanks for the input and debate. it's good fo Nick and you to clarify these things for the great unwashed (including me!)....
01 March 2002, 08:43 AM
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Harry, were you thinking of going for the 600 over the 500 or another bit of kit.
If so, I can't remember what the differences are between the 500 and 600. From an operational point of view don't think you'll really notice any difference, once installed you just turn it ON or OFF (simplistic view). It's obviously got benefits but I guess once installed it just peace of mind in that you've got that little bit extra.
The 600 has got the extra point of immobilisation over the 500 and tilt motion sensor. Does the 500 have the anti-hijack, umm I th ink it does. You also get the auto window rollup, which is quite handy, more of a posey thing though, (I tend to shut my windows out of habit) so there's not a lot of difference between them.
Depends on what price you can get 600 for. Can't remember how much I paid, I think it was around 600/650 with the turbo timer which I think is a must. A bit weird walking away from your car when the engine still turing over and for the first month or so I only ended up walking away and watching it from a distance until it timed out but you get used to it. It's more of a benefit when I park back home at night. Leave your lights on and it gives you more than enough time to get out the car, arm it, shut the gate/garage door (no outdoor light) and get in the house before it all shutsdown, oh and it's supposed to be good for cooling the turbo aswell
If I got a quid for the number of times that I've been told, "You've left lights on mate", I'am like, "yeh and the engine, it's the turbo timer", not complaining though it's good to know people care.
I have had a few problems with false alarms on the proximity sensors, but I put this down to either installation or a faulty unit, hence my knowledge of how to disable, and my questions to max (thanks for the reply Nick). This is due to be sorted by the installer, just got to pull my finger out and get it booked in.
[Edited by boultsy - 3/1/2002 8:53:10 AM]
If so, I can't remember what the differences are between the 500 and 600. From an operational point of view don't think you'll really notice any difference, once installed you just turn it ON or OFF (simplistic view). It's obviously got benefits but I guess once installed it just peace of mind in that you've got that little bit extra.
The 600 has got the extra point of immobilisation over the 500 and tilt motion sensor. Does the 500 have the anti-hijack, umm I th ink it does. You also get the auto window rollup, which is quite handy, more of a posey thing though, (I tend to shut my windows out of habit) so there's not a lot of difference between them.
Depends on what price you can get 600 for. Can't remember how much I paid, I think it was around 600/650 with the turbo timer which I think is a must. A bit weird walking away from your car when the engine still turing over and for the first month or so I only ended up walking away and watching it from a distance until it timed out
but you get used to it. It's more of a benefit when I park back home at night. Leave your lights on and it gives you more than enough time to get out the car, arm it, shut the gate/garage door (no outdoor light) and get in the house before it all shutsdown, oh and it's supposed to be good for cooling the turbo aswell If I got a quid for the number of times that I've been told, "You've left lights on mate", I'am like, "yeh and the engine, it's the turbo timer", not complaining though it's good to know people care.I have had a few problems with false alarms on the proximity sensors, but I put this down to either installation or a faulty unit, hence my knowledge of how to disable, and my questions to max (thanks for the reply Nick). This is due to be sorted by the installer, just got to pull my finger out and get it booked in.
[Edited by boultsy - 3/1/2002 8:53:10 AM]
01 March 2002, 07:00 PM
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just so happens that i also have my ultrabright blue LED on the top of the dashboard lol and one in each door card . my dual zone microwave is in the headlining and works great ! "the other one is somewhere else that is classified! "
I could tell you all but i would have to do alot of killing !
and im not a serial killer.
anyone ever put blue LED's in as bulbs?
have you seen them replacement bulbs that are filled with LED's instead of a glass bulb ?
I could tell you all but i would have to do alot of killing !
and im not a serial killer.
anyone ever put blue LED's in as bulbs?
have you seen them replacement bulbs that are filled with LED's instead of a glass bulb ?
05 March 2002, 10:26 PM
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Hi Boultsy - thanks once again for the good advice Mate - As you may see from another post, I've been to Max, and we're all "Clifforded Up", if that's the appropriate term.....
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