Which car alarm ?
02 June 2006, 10:57 AM
#2
BANNED
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you can raise your budget to £299 you can then get the new Viper (clifford's older brother) 480XV. The alarm has a cool 2 way LCD remote fob with built in pager system. The system is Cat 1 and comes with lifetime warranty. The system has 6 channels to add extras and also has the option to add turbo timer of the alarm.
We have many other offers for £250 or below but most are not Cat 1.
www.motorguarduk.co.uk
We have many other offers for £250 or below but most are not Cat 1.
www.motorguarduk.co.uk
16 June 2006, 04:38 PM
#4
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Falkirk, Scotland
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Avital Maxx 1's are available for around £199 - £225 if you show around
Toad Ai606 - £240 £260 ish
Viper 460xv - £240 £260 ish
All are cat 1 and are available up and down the country
Toad Ai606 - £240 £260 ish
Viper 460xv - £240 £260 ish
All are cat 1 and are available up and down the country
16 June 2006, 07:31 PM
#6
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Falkirk, Scotland
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The viper 460xv has 6 independant output channels and one of these can be wired to work as a TurboTimer. Because Viper is also the parent brand of Clifford there are a magnitude of accessories available. For the money there is no other alarm with as good a spec. For example:
460xv: 3 immobiliser points, 6 outputs (timed, pulsed, latched) £260ish
Clifford Concept 650: 2 Immobiliser points, 2 outputs (timed, pulsed, latched) £325ish
Toad Ai606: 2 immobiliser Points, 2 outputs (pulsed) £260ish.
Basicly the sky is the limit with one of these. They are poised to become the next big thing on the alarm scene.
460xv: 3 immobiliser points, 6 outputs (timed, pulsed, latched) £260ish
Clifford Concept 650: 2 Immobiliser points, 2 outputs (timed, pulsed, latched) £325ish
Toad Ai606: 2 immobiliser Points, 2 outputs (pulsed) £260ish.
Basicly the sky is the limit with one of these. They are poised to become the next big thing on the alarm scene.
17 June 2006, 10:20 AM
#7
Hmm, i take it by immobilisor points, you mean 3 ways its wired in to be immobilised ??
i also have a turbo timer,if i ask them to wire this into alram as well, is this like the norm, or will i be faced with blank looks and sighs etc ?
so the viper 460xv is the one to go for then when im asking at my local sextons ?
cheers......
i also have a turbo timer,if i ask them to wire this into alram as well, is this like the norm, or will i be faced with blank looks and sighs etc ?
so the viper 460xv is the one to go for then when im asking at my local sextons ?
cheers......
Trending Topics
17 June 2006, 11:35 AM
#9
BANNED
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sigma Technical
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you need a thatcham Cat 1 approved system for insurance purposes?
I see no one has mentioned that the addition of the Turbo Timer will invalidate the systems Thatcham Cat 1 status....
The latest Sigma S30 has 2 passive arming Thatcham approved immobiliusation circuits, 7 outputs (1 latched the others timed - adjustable) in addition to full locking control, positive trigger input and built in closed loop protection circuit, internal panic button facility, built in pre-warn facility for use with optional dual zone sensors, additional sensor sockets for dual and single stage accessory sensors, key theft protection feature and one of the outputs can be used to operate a remote start unit BUT the connection of a remote start system will still invalidate its Cat 1 status.
Just so you know.
SS
I see no one has mentioned that the addition of the Turbo Timer will invalidate the systems Thatcham Cat 1 status....
The latest Sigma S30 has 2 passive arming Thatcham approved immobiliusation circuits, 7 outputs (1 latched the others timed - adjustable) in addition to full locking control, positive trigger input and built in closed loop protection circuit, internal panic button facility, built in pre-warn facility for use with optional dual zone sensors, additional sensor sockets for dual and single stage accessory sensors, key theft protection feature and one of the outputs can be used to operate a remote start unit BUT the connection of a remote start system will still invalidate its Cat 1 status.
Just so you know.
SS
Last edited by Sigma Sam; 17 June 2006 at 11:46 AM.
17 June 2006, 11:46 AM
#10
o.k,handy to know, i dont drive it that hard so might have the timer turned off anyway most of the time.
how does the timer work then, with an alarm, i get out, blip the alarm, it locks/immobilises but if the timer is running, what then ?
why does it invalidtae the alarm status, if the timer has a max of 5 mins, surely, after 5 mins the car cuts out anyway as the timer has finished, with no key in the car thats it, they`d have tot then bypass the alarm/immobilisor to get ti running again ?!?!?
or am i way off ?
how does the timer work then, with an alarm, i get out, blip the alarm, it locks/immobilises but if the timer is running, what then ?
why does it invalidtae the alarm status, if the timer has a max of 5 mins, surely, after 5 mins the car cuts out anyway as the timer has finished, with no key in the car thats it, they`d have tot then bypass the alarm/immobilisor to get ti running again ?!?!?
or am i way off ?
18 June 2006, 12:30 AM
#11
BANNED
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sigma Technical
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not quite so simple.
Thatcham criteria states that the immobiliser must passively arm (cutting critical engine circuits) 30 seconds after the ignition is turned off or the ignition key is removed.
With a Thatcham system fitted, your max turbo timer run would be 30 seconds before the ignition circuits were cut - stopping the engine. By-passing the passive arming immobiliser to allow a longer run introduces a week point into the security, aswell as going against the Thatcham criteria and so invalidate any Thatcham approval.
SS
Thatcham criteria states that the immobiliser must passively arm (cutting critical engine circuits) 30 seconds after the ignition is turned off or the ignition key is removed.
With a Thatcham system fitted, your max turbo timer run would be 30 seconds before the ignition circuits were cut - stopping the engine. By-passing the passive arming immobiliser to allow a longer run introduces a week point into the security, aswell as going against the Thatcham criteria and so invalidate any Thatcham approval.
SS
Last edited by Sigma Sam; 18 June 2006 at 12:32 AM.
18 June 2006, 11:09 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Sigma Sam
Not quite so simple.
Thatcham criteria states that the immobiliser must passively arm (cutting critical engine circuits) 30 seconds after the ignition is turned off or the ignition key is removed.
With a Thatcham system fitted, your max turbo timer run would be 30 seconds before the ignition circuits were cut - stopping the engine. By-passing the passive arming immobiliser to allow a longer run introduces a week point into the security, aswell as going against the Thatcham criteria and so invalidate any Thatcham approval.
SS
Thatcham criteria states that the immobiliser must passively arm (cutting critical engine circuits) 30 seconds after the ignition is turned off or the ignition key is removed.
With a Thatcham system fitted, your max turbo timer run would be 30 seconds before the ignition circuits were cut - stopping the engine. By-passing the passive arming immobiliser to allow a longer run introduces a week point into the security, aswell as going against the Thatcham criteria and so invalidate any Thatcham approval.
SS
Ian
18 June 2006, 07:05 PM
#13
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Falkirk, Scotland
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It works by activating a channel on the alarm BEFORE you remove your keys. You can then jump out and arm the alarm system as normal. This does not affect the operation of the alarm in any way.
This is something that cannot be done by Toad or Sigma systems and contrary to what the previous posters say, you can arm the system with the turbotimer running. Furthermore it can be set up so that if your alarm was to be activated, the engine would be shut down.
It really is that simple.
This is something that cannot be done by Toad or Sigma systems and contrary to what the previous posters say, you can arm the system with the turbotimer running. Furthermore it can be set up so that if your alarm was to be activated, the engine would be shut down.
It really is that simple.
Last edited by evolutionice.com; 18 June 2006 at 07:13 PM.
24 June 2006, 12:20 AM
#14
BANNED
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sigma Technical
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I stand by my post.
What you say regarding simple operation is correct - I'm not questioning how it operates, but you make no mention to maximum timer duration and Thatcham approval.
If you read my post again I state that a Turbo Timer could run for a maximum of 30 seconds and still stay within Thatcham approval.
The fact is that a system incorporating a Turbo Timer or Remote Start device, or with such a device added to it that allows the vehicle's engine to run for over 30 seconds, so that it no longer "passively arms (cutting a minimum of 2 essential engine circuits) within 30 seconds of the ignition being turned off, or the vehicle's keys removed from the ignition switch" therefore no longer meets Thatcham criteria and the system evaluation will be void.
There are also a couple of other points to consider regarding these devices:
Due to the UK insurance industrys requirements (and EU legislation) a turbo timer or remote start unit is unlikely to have been designed with the UK market in mind and so is unlikely to have been tested to EU 95/54 (- electrical compatibility legislation) and will not bear an “e” mark to show that the product has been tested and is fit for the automotive environment.
In addition, "leaving a vehicle unattended in a public place with the engine running" is also an offence in the UK, contravening the "Construction and Use Regulations".
Contrary to your post, a Turbo Timer could be added to both the Sigma S-Series and the Toad AI606, but it would invalidate their Thatcham Cat1 approval too, if the engine were to run for more than 30 seconds - as it would any system on the market.
Both these system's immobilisation circuits go "open-circuit" only when they receive an ignition input whilst armed so, when wired wired correctly (with the device suppling an ignition feed not detected by the alarm), both the Sigma S-Series and Toad system could be armed with the timer running - Perhaps you are mistakenly thinking of the Sigma M-Series here, as it's immobilisation circuits do go "open-circuit" as soon as it is armed, so you would need to rely on this system's the Auto-Arm feature in order to conveniently add a Turbo Timer and avoid the manual arming problem.
In addition, the Sigma S-Series also has on-board provision for a Remote Start Device which would operate in a similar way to that you have described above - also shutting the engine down if triggered etc. although again, utilisation of such a circuit would breach 95/54 EC and also render the system's Thatcham evaluation void.
Please be careful before stating what specific products can and cannot do.
SS
What you say regarding simple operation is correct - I'm not questioning how it operates, but you make no mention to maximum timer duration and Thatcham approval.
If you read my post again I state that a Turbo Timer could run for a maximum of 30 seconds and still stay within Thatcham approval.
The fact is that a system incorporating a Turbo Timer or Remote Start device, or with such a device added to it that allows the vehicle's engine to run for over 30 seconds, so that it no longer "passively arms (cutting a minimum of 2 essential engine circuits) within 30 seconds of the ignition being turned off, or the vehicle's keys removed from the ignition switch" therefore no longer meets Thatcham criteria and the system evaluation will be void.
There are also a couple of other points to consider regarding these devices:
Due to the UK insurance industrys requirements (and EU legislation) a turbo timer or remote start unit is unlikely to have been designed with the UK market in mind and so is unlikely to have been tested to EU 95/54 (- electrical compatibility legislation) and will not bear an “e” mark to show that the product has been tested and is fit for the automotive environment.
In addition, "leaving a vehicle unattended in a public place with the engine running" is also an offence in the UK, contravening the "Construction and Use Regulations".
Contrary to your post, a Turbo Timer could be added to both the Sigma S-Series and the Toad AI606, but it would invalidate their Thatcham Cat1 approval too, if the engine were to run for more than 30 seconds - as it would any system on the market.
Both these system's immobilisation circuits go "open-circuit" only when they receive an ignition input whilst armed so, when wired wired correctly (with the device suppling an ignition feed not detected by the alarm), both the Sigma S-Series and Toad system could be armed with the timer running - Perhaps you are mistakenly thinking of the Sigma M-Series here, as it's immobilisation circuits do go "open-circuit" as soon as it is armed, so you would need to rely on this system's the Auto-Arm feature in order to conveniently add a Turbo Timer and avoid the manual arming problem.
In addition, the Sigma S-Series also has on-board provision for a Remote Start Device which would operate in a similar way to that you have described above - also shutting the engine down if triggered etc. although again, utilisation of such a circuit would breach 95/54 EC and also render the system's Thatcham evaluation void.
Please be careful before stating what specific products can and cannot do.
SS
Last edited by Sigma Sam; 24 June 2006 at 01:39 AM.
24 June 2006, 11:20 AM
#15
BANNED
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can set the turbo timer to 30 secs or set to what ever time limit you like. I can't wait for the new clifford AvantGuard to come out (available end of year) which will have remote start etc all as standard & it will be Thatcham approved. Then all this argument will end and all people that say stuff about Clifford will have nothing more to say.
Toad & sigma fitters have the same argument each time. But i'm sure that if their product also had the function to work a turbo timer properly they would try and sell it. If members are using a turbo timer anyway then whats wrong with having one of the alarm?
Toad & sigma fitters have the same argument each time. But i'm sure that if their product also had the function to work a turbo timer properly they would try and sell it. If members are using a turbo timer anyway then whats wrong with having one of the alarm?
27 June 2006, 08:23 AM
#16
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Falkirk, Scotland
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sigma Sam
I stand by my post.
What you say regarding simple operation is correct - I'm not questioning how it operates, but you make no mention to maximum timer duration and Thatcham approval.
If you read my post again I state that a Turbo Timer could run for a maximum of 30 seconds and still stay within Thatcham approval.
The fact is that a system incorporating a Turbo Timer or Remote Start device, or with such a device added to it that allows the vehicle's engine to run for over 30 seconds, so that it no longer "passively arms (cutting a minimum of 2 essential engine circuits) within 30 seconds of the ignition being turned off, or the vehicle's keys removed from the ignition switch" therefore no longer meets Thatcham criteria and the system evaluation will be void.
What you say regarding simple operation is correct - I'm not questioning how it operates, but you make no mention to maximum timer duration and Thatcham approval.
If you read my post again I state that a Turbo Timer could run for a maximum of 30 seconds and still stay within Thatcham approval.
The fact is that a system incorporating a Turbo Timer or Remote Start device, or with such a device added to it that allows the vehicle's engine to run for over 30 seconds, so that it no longer "passively arms (cutting a minimum of 2 essential engine circuits) within 30 seconds of the ignition being turned off, or the vehicle's keys removed from the ignition switch" therefore no longer meets Thatcham criteria and the system evaluation will be void.
27 June 2006, 04:47 PM
#17
BANNED
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sigma Technical
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by evolutionice.com
Actually your wrong here because when both the turbo timer and the remote start systems are working the alarm cuts are untouched and they are actually active. Therfor the thatcham criteria is in no way affected. Neither the turbo timer nor the remote start stop the alarm from passive arming no matter how long the timers are set for.
I’ve studided the Thatcham criteria again today and confirmed this now during a conversation with Thatcham, so this is the definitive answer:
Remote Start Devices
An alarm system that incorporates a full Remote Start feature will not meet 95/54 EC approval, and without this European approval such systems will not even be considered by “Thatcham” for Cat 1 approval, now or in the future
Fact.
- you may want to ask further questions of any rep who tells you that they have such a product on the way.
Adding a Separate Remote Start unit to your vehicle will render the Thatcham approval of any existing Cat 1 alarm system fitted to the vehicle void.
As well as the contravention of 95/54 EC, the fact that leaving “an unattended vehicle in a public place with the engine running” contravenes the UK “Construction and Use Regulations”.
Fact.
Turbo Timers.
Providing that these are wired “in-series” with the Cat 1 systems immobilisation circuits (ie in such a way that if the immobiliser goes open circuit, then the engine will be cut) and provided that the Timer does not allow the engine to run for longer than 60 seconds (not 30 seconds as my previous posts – my apologies) after the ignition is turned off or the ignition key removed, then this is acceptable.
However, if the Timer is wired in parallel to the immobiliser (ie effectively by passing the immobiliser) or if it allows the engine to run for longer than 60 seconds after the ignition is turned off or the ignition key removed, then it will also render the Thatcham approval of any existing Cat 1 alarm system fitted to the vehicle void.
Fact
There is another potential problem here, as increasing the effective length of the immobilisation circuits (by connecting the Timer "in series" as required) may cause reliability/starting problems due to the increased resistance in the circuits.
These points, with the exception of the 30 second passive immobilisation time error - which is infact a maximum 60 seconds, are as I had already posted.
I would also like to add that my apparent "issue" with these products is the potential to invalidate Thatcham approval without the end user being aware.
Both the Toad and Sigma products are capable of being used with Turbo Timers within the Thatcham criteria and additionally the Toad AI606 and Sigma S30 and S34 have the facility to activate remote start units, although as previously posted this will render their Thatchsam approval void, so I have no sales agenda here from alerting readers to the problems of using such devices.
From my technical position, dealing directly with Thatcham, IM (Subaru UK) and FHI (Subaru Japan), I have much less of a sales agenda than other posters on this forum. Afterall, we've already sold the systems - I'm only trying to help existing owners and the Subaru community, keeping them informed of the facts.
All readers of this thread should look again at the posts above and see who has the most to gain by not pointing these facts out when trying to sell such products and draw their own conclusions.
SS
Last edited by Sigma Sam; 28 June 2006 at 10:02 AM.
08 July 2006, 06:55 AM
#19
Spec for the viper 460xv
3-point immobilisation
Remotely adjustable ultrasonic sensors
ESP2 Battery Backup siren
Metal cased Control Unit
Dual Multiplex input for additional Dual Zone sensors with
warn away
Doors, bonnet and boot protection
Flashing indicators whilst alarm sounding
Remote central locking
5 channel outputs for control of additional features
(Turbo timer, electric windows, etc)
Multi car control
Comfort close
Sensor bypass facility
Ultra-bright Blue LED
PIN override and valet mode
Passive arming
BitWriter programmable
Sensor override
Total Closure
Supplied with 2 - 4 button one-way remotes
when it says total closure, is that when the windows do up if there open ?
will i have to ask for this to be added or is it standard i wonder ?
3-point immobilisation
Remotely adjustable ultrasonic sensors
ESP2 Battery Backup siren
Metal cased Control Unit
Dual Multiplex input for additional Dual Zone sensors with
warn away
Doors, bonnet and boot protection
Flashing indicators whilst alarm sounding
Remote central locking
5 channel outputs for control of additional features
(Turbo timer, electric windows, etc)
Multi car control
Comfort close
Sensor bypass facility
Ultra-bright Blue LED
PIN override and valet mode
Passive arming
BitWriter programmable
Sensor override
Total Closure
Supplied with 2 - 4 button one-way remotes
when it says total closure, is that when the windows do up if there open ?
will i have to ask for this to be added or is it standard i wonder ?
08 July 2006, 11:28 AM
#21
BANNED
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by The Rig
well,its booked in, £279 plus maybe £20 -£30 for the turbo timer IF relays or extra bits are needed.
www.motorguarduk.co.uk
08 July 2006, 11:34 AM
#22
Thats a good price, been quoted £350 for it round my way, if you were closer then cool,but alas, too far away from me.
He`s going to see availabilty monday and i can decide then.
apart from the LCD display on the fob, the 480 doesnt have any benefits does it,for the extra £80 id be paying,is it worth it?
im not clued up on alarms so feel free to enlighten me.
cheers......
He`s going to see availabilty monday and i can decide then.
apart from the LCD display on the fob, the 480 doesnt have any benefits does it,for the extra £80 id be paying,is it worth it?
im not clued up on alarms so feel free to enlighten me.
cheers......
08 July 2006, 03:13 PM
#24
BANNED
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With a 460 if your car is out of sight then chances are you wont hear it if the alarm is sounding. With 480xv the pager will alert you via bleeps/vibrations of alarm triggers,status and zone triggered. If you can get a deal out of the supplyoing dealer then I would definately recommend the 480xv with turbo timer.
16 July 2006, 08:48 AM
#27
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: norfolk/lincs
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by The Rig
well,having it fitted today, well, i dropped it off at 9 am, 5.30 and it wasnt done, they had a hard time i belive, so its a hard job i believe,should be finished tomorrow AM.
he said he had an issue with a door motor ?!?!?
he said he had an issue with a door motor ?!?!?
cheers ian
16 July 2006, 05:46 PM
#28
yep,all fitted, its a bloody good alarm,i am still getting used to the features,but seems good, i have set the pager system to beep and vibrate in event of attack on car/break in etc.
it has a VRS system which is an anti hijack feature,if u feel its going to happen, press some buttons etc and it cuts engine out after about 2 mins or so, am going to see if it works, prob an add on tho LOL !!!
£390 in the end.
built in turbo timer,set to 30 seconds.
it has a VRS system which is an anti hijack feature,if u feel its going to happen, press some buttons etc and it cuts engine out after about 2 mins or so, am going to see if it works, prob an add on tho LOL !!!
£390 in the end.
built in turbo timer,set to 30 seconds.
16 July 2006, 06:15 PM
#29
Hmm,VRS MUST BE yet another optional extra,must admit,im a little peed at the fact everything is optional at an extra cost, total closure,extra £50,VRS,extra £££,also, everything is set to off,igntion controlled door locks.set to off,igniton controlled unlock,set to off,although this would be changed i guess if above was set to on,passive arming,off,forced passive arming,off.
i guess i will take it back and get them to set these to on, but will prob be prompted with, that`ll be an hours work, £25 mate !!
we`ll see..........
i guess i will take it back and get them to set these to on, but will prob be prompted with, that`ll be an hours work, £25 mate !!
we`ll see..........