doctor CLIFFORD

And Chairk MOTORGUARD has a U in the middle!!

[Edited by doctor CLIFFORD - 11/6/2003 11:52:50 PM]

doctor CLIFFORD

The main reason i am not a Clifford dealer is that my area is already filled by someone else (who does 1/4 the work but he got there first)

[Edited by doctor CLIFFORD - 11/6/2003 11:57:43 PM]

dr_ming

I have to agree with Paul that going to an authorised dealer (for anything - I'm not just talking about Clifford security products here) is no guarentee of quality. Maybe it gives you a bit more come-back, but then, maybe not! Recommendations from satisfied customers are worth much, much more.


[Edited by dr_ming - 11/7/2003 3:02:13 PM]

STi VII

I visited the Clifford website just yesterday and entered my postcode and it came up with my locations nearest Authorised Clifford Dealer. I contacted the company and when I asked for a price for a Clifford cat 1 fitted, the guy I spoke to did not have a good word to say about Clifford alarms at all.
He went to great lengths to inform me that they are always failing and are very unreliable and that in the end they have stopped fitting Cliffords. The reason given was that they themselves had to cover the labour and parts costs of any warranty work needed as well as sometimes having to get spare parts from the alarm kits they held in stock.
He then went on to say that Clifford have kept them on there website to try and get them to change there mind about being an authorised dealer of their products.
Now I know from previous good experience of a concept 600 that incidentally had never given me any problems at all. That what this guy was saying was not totally the case and from the direction he was taking the conversation he was trying to steer me into having a Toad or Cobra alarm fitted. My only gripe being that Clifford have not bothered to sort out the wireless fuelguard incompatibility with Imprezas but not important this time as it was not an Impreza I wanted it fitted to.
If will be interesting to see what you think about this experience of mine and how do you think anyone can have faith in the products if this is the view they get of an authorised dealers experiance when they phone for a price.
If I was to email you could you please give me the contact details of a local authorised dealer that is competent enough to fit your products?

[Edited by STi VII - 11/7/2003 3:27:50 PM]

Mark@Clifford/Directed

First of all i would like to introduce myself, my name is Mark and i am a member of the Directed Electronics UK/Europe Technical team. With this if any clifford related issues require answering i will try to help. This site was brought to my attention by several users who have had our products installed by, i believe Motorguard-Birmingham. Can i stress this company is not authorised to sell our products therefore purchases from them hold no warranty. When installing Concept 500/600 sytems to a subaru, we supply a modified unit to cope with electrical noise issues on these cars. This company does not have access to these or are aware of this as do our authorised dealers, therefore they are installing standard systems which are failing. Our alarm sytems as some may be aware contain microprocessors which require a stable power source, as does your home pc. Impreza's particularly, have noisy charge circuits that will spike the unit. After discovering this when the Impreza first came on the scene, we developed a modification that stabilsed the supply overcoming all problems. If you require a system and are in need of a dealer do not hesitate in contacting myself.

chiark

I don't think anyone would doubt it, but this is a genuine post from Clifford/DEI - I've had a quick mail with Mark to check it out. Mark, thanks for making the situation clear in an unambiguous and non-contentious way.

Units installed by Motorgard (Doctor Clifford on this board) are, as I understand it, warranted by Motorgard themselves so you do get a warranty backed and supported by Motorgard. However, you do *not* get the Clifford-backed warranty with Clifford products installed by Motorgard.

Doctor Clifford (motorgard) has been posting on these boards for a long time now, and has never hidden the fact that he is not an authorised Clifford dealer. He has many satisfied customers, as do other alarm fitters on this board.

I can't foresee anything wrong happening on the thread, but could people please make sure that they keep posts factual so it doesn't end up turning into a slanging match ? (Sorry if that's assuming the worst, but I think this thread does serve a purpose and I'd like to not be involved from a moderation side of things )

Cheers,
Nick.

doctor CLIFFORD

If you want to pay RRP go to a dealer !!
The reason i fit so much Clifford is because they very rarly go wrong so warrantee is rarly an issue and when they do i change them
(last month i fitted 16 black-jack systems)

If i had to sell them at full retail price i would have sold 3!

If clifford want to speak to me 01213591617

Cheers Rich

Big Goon

Nice to see another manufacturer join this bbs.

What criteria does a potential dealer have to meet in order to qualify as an official installer/retailer ?

I had a very unsatisfactory C600 installation performed on my STi7 by Orpington Car Stereo in Poole, are they official dealers ?

I very shortly after had the whole system re-installed by another local company who failed on two occasions to make the wireless fuel guard work correctly.
I was then told that even Clifford themselves suggest that this feature 'not' be fitted ?

Thanks for any help in advance.

Paul_M

Personally (and I stress that this is my personal opinion!) I think that the "authorised dealer" system Clifford runs is a load of nonsense. I could see the point if the idea is to prevent shoddy installs but in reality some of the worst installs I have ever seen have been performed by so-called authorised dealers. Anyone remember the pics of the Impreza where the siren was bolted to the bulkhead resting on the brake pipes and sitting directly above the turbo? Authorised Clifford dealer IIRC.

I don't believe that using an authorised dealer gives you any more likelihood of good workmanship than say going to a Subaru dealer for a service. In both cases there seems to be certain retailers that make an assumption that having that stamp of approval is more important than good workmanship.

And as far as the Clifford warranty is concerned, be aware that although it claims to be "lifetime" that you'll have to pay labour charges after 12 months to remove and reinstall the faulty part - at the sky-high "authorised dealer" rates of course. I have a temperamental Concept 600 control unit in my car which I intend to buy a replacement for and fit myself - I know exactly where it is and could do it in 30 mins, but if I were to have it replaced under warranty it would likely cost me more in labour not to mention the hassle of dropping the car off at an authorised dealer for several hours during the daytime.

BTW I also have a Concept 50X installed in one of my other cars that I installed myself about 6 years ago - still works perfectly. It's just a pity the newer units don't seem to be so reliable

Just adding my own opinions to the debate, and I'll add my final comment that although I've never purchased anything from Dr Clifford I would wholehartedly recommend him as he has helped me out with information a few times even though I'm not a customer.

doctor CLIFFORD

Cheers Paul

Mark@Clifford/Directed

Can i just make clear, at no point has the quality of "Dr Clifford's" work been questioned. in fact to Rich's credit i have only ever had good reports. It was merely a statement of warranty. As many may be aware, many purchases are made due to our "Limited Lifetime Warranty".

S.B.

I tried yesterday i never got a reply.

S.B.

STi VII what area are you in?

Mark@Clifford/Directed

Stiv11

What area are tou in?

chiark

STI VII - please would you contact Clifford (either mark, or someone on their phoneline)? It does no-one any good to have a dealer like that.

I think everyone knows where they stand with regards to Motorguard. Sorry for missing the "U" out, I thought it was motorgard as I've seen it written like that many times

Cheers,
Nick.

doctor CLIFFORD

j888ymc

a year ago i had a clifford c600 fitted by GAP
didnt fit the alarm right 1st time ( alarm kept going off! blackjax not working..) and had to come back to finish off 2 weeks later ( coz they were busy )
im sure at the time they claim they were the clifford pros/experts but totally messed up my alarm i lost confident and didnt want to call them back just incase they made more damage,
i then called various authourised clifford dealers close by but all wanted to charge me to look or check the alarm..
then i came on here and heard about motorgaurd uk
although i didnt buy the alarm off them they happily checked the whole alarm back to front, sorted out the blackjax, all free of charge what service ( no lie )
they may not be authorised dealers but they certainly know there cliffords back to front and are much more friendly and talkative than the authourised dealers i spoke to who only wanted to hear the money 1st,
to me good attitude, and
'will do anythink to get things right when things are wrong' service comes 1st instead of manufacters warranty,
so i was abit saddened you had to mention motorgaurd uk in your post when there are 100's of other unauthorised clifford dearlers outhere,
still top marks to rich and the guys at motorgaurd for looking after both my cars

luddite dave

Hi luddite dave here from maximum impact in leeds for the very first time on tinternet ever.So i thought i'd try scoobynet first seeing as we've had quite alot of work from your good selves,anyway in reply to who should and shouldnt fit clifford is the $1 million question but here goes ,just because someone is an authorised dealer doesnt make them a good installer likewise just because your an unauthorised dealer and you sell product cheaper than some people would like, make you a bad installer.As with any purchase homework is the key to getting it right first time ,i'me sure when all you people bought your scoobies you didnt just base it on price or the fact it was a dealer selling it or it was a nice colour.no, more likely you asked around went on website etc etc then finely made your purchase.If one thing scoobynet should teach you lot about cliffords is they are complex piece of kit to fit, and installed badly by whoever for whatever price are going to cause you **** load trouble so do your homework get recommendations and choose wisely.BYE BYE FOR NOW

stevey

iTrader: (2)

got to give it to dave and co at maximum impact cos when my c600 failed i spoke to dave and he was very helpful even phoned back a couple of days later to see how i had gone on with it top service to say they had nothing to do with me or my car cheers lads

doctor CLIFFORD

Bi ekk dave can thee get tinternet up there like

KINGY71

Free back to the top for Dave for fitting my Blackjax.....

capita

Message for Richard at Motorgard:

Rob here, the green subaru's concept 500 has failed again, this time leaving the wife stranded in the middle of the countryside. All hazards flashed, headlights on/off engine cutting in and out and finally unlocking/locking doors. I cant move the car please contact me urgently to resolve, you have my number - ROB EYRE

Further to our conversation last night I am confident that Richard will resolve the issue under warranty. I hope this will indeed be the last problem I have with Clifford products, I have had considerably less hassle with my Autowatch system on my other Scooby (In fact no problems whatsoever) so come on Clifford restore my faith in your products. 5 times the alarm has failed, twice it was the blackjax, so no arguing that its noisey electrics there!

Rob

[Edited by capita - 11/14/2003 9:13:36 AM]

Big Goon

Hmm, well did Mark@Clifford actually answer any of our questions/comments ?

Poor dealers and wireless fuel guards on Imprezas for instance ?

BittenEdges

hmmmm, in my view Cliffords are a great concept but incredibly unreliable, go for a Toad much better!

And at the end of the day if a thief really wants your car he will get it one way or another! Unless you bolt it to the ground and put machine guns around it!!!


[Edited by BittenEdges - 12/4/2003 2:40:40 PM]

[Edited by BittenEdges - 12/4/2003 2:43:34 PM]

Paul_M

I wouldn't say they're incredibly unreliable but certainly would say the newer models i.e. G4 stuff seems to be much more prone to failure than the previous generation (Concept 50/50X/60 etc). Whether G5 rectifies this remains to be seen...

Saying that though Mark from directed has come on here mentioning the problem with noisy electronics on Imprezas and why you should go to a dealer to get the official "fix". This further leads me to doubt the reliability of Clifford stuff because if it can't handle a noisy power line then it's not very well designed in the first place IMO. As anyone who knows about electronics can testify the automotive environment is one of the worst in terms of noise so anything designed for car use has to be very well filtered etc.

For Directed to blame the problems on the car seems to be a scapegoat IMO - if there really are problems with Cliffords in Imprezas it's a fault of the alarm not the car - the system is designed to be installed in 12V negative earth cars which includes the Impreza so they obviously haven't designed with a high enough tolerance.

I also believe this information should be made openly available to anyone who's purchased a Clifford alarm - after all it's a bit pathetic if they are keeping this information a secret hoping that if the system fails due to the poor power supply filtering that the blame will fall at the feet of the "unauthorised installer"

Can anyone elaborate on what this so-called Impreza fix is? And are any other alarm systems known to have problems with noise in the Impreza?

luddite dave

Hello you lot sorry you have had some bad experiences with cliffords by the sounds of it.Having fitted cliffords for some ten years or more one thing remains constant if your clifford is fitted poorly it will cause you more grief than a baby cutting teeth.The problem with some import subarus is the electrics aren't shielded correctly ie no suppressed plugs and charging circuits etc which can cause functioning problems with the wireless fuel guard on the alarm.The reason this sometimes fails is because when you turn the ignition on to start the vehicle the alarm transmits a coded signal through the vehicle cabling for 20seconds to the hidden fuel guard ,if their's too much electrical noise generated it doesnt regognise the code so it doesnt disarm.The other reason cliffords tend to have more false alarms than other manufacturers is because of the amount of sensors they come with ie glass tamper,dual zone shock sensor,dual zone proximity,tilt and motion sensor and blackjax.If any one of these is not set up correctly then the alarm will false alarm all day.As for the remote controls locking out near radio masts this is due to the goverment only allocating so much frequency space to be used for commercial use so it becomes very crowded so any device with a stronger transmition power than your remote can block your signal sometimes.This is a problem that all manufacturers have, not just clifford.As for the benefits of using authorised dealers we get regular mail shots making us aware of potential problems with certain cars and enviromental influences which unauthorised fitters dont.Like i said i've been fitting cliffords for years as well as cobra,sigma,laserline ,toad,moss,you name it and i,ve probably fitted it or removed it but without a doubt clifford is still the best (until someone fits it badly).

chiark

Luddite Dave has, IMHO, hit the nail on the head.

I have only ever seen Clifford slagged off by installers who have had problems with it.

Paul_M

I agree that a poor installation is a recipe for disaster - hence why I'd only either fit it myself (which Clifford don't like, but I'm guaranteed a good job) or get it done by someone I know will do a good job - not just any old "authorised dealer" cos there seem to be plenty of "authorised" cowboys about.

If the interference problem is only with the wireless fuelguard then fair enough - I know how it works regards trasmitting the code so it's understandable that component will be more prone to interference than most. It would have been nice for Clifford/DEI to come out and state that instead of scaremongering about general alarm problems on the Impreza - only the C600/AG4 comes with fuelguard as standard so all other systems will be unaffected unless it's been added as an option.

BTW The issues I'm having with mine definitely aren't interference related, it's the control box playing up. It sometimes ignores the remotes completely, other times will respond only to button 1 of the master remote and will ignore all other buttons and completely ignore the companion remote. Other times it will work fine - all outside my house so the same environment.

It also sometimes fails to make beeps when it should, e.g. when flicking the ignition to bypass auto-arm it sometimes won't beep although the auto-arm bypass still works. I don't know if arm/disarm chirps are affected as I have them switched off.

I've had a discussion with someone from DEI about the alarm and they suggested the EEPROM in the control box may need reset (something along those lines, can't remember). But the "lifetime warranty" ain't all it's cracked up to be - by the time I travel to an authorised dealer and pay labour charges to have the box removed and a new one installed I'll be cheaper buying a new one and installing it myself. Which is exactly what I intend to do when I get the time and cash!

BTW I had to replace the valet switch as well as it was a bit dodgy, sometimes entered the code and the alarm would still be blaring (this was one of the several times the remote stopped responding) so had to try several times. Bought a replacement for a whopping £5 and took 30 secs to swap it over - now works fine so can't complain about that too much but I'm just lucky the first one didn't fail completely or I'd be left stranded.

luddite dave

Hi paul, your right some of the components could be more robust like the valet switch especialy when using it for blackjax override and just to clarify clifford do a shielded unit for scoobies for interferance suppression,i was just saying the wireless fuel guard as one of the examples associated with noisy electrics to cause problems, not just the only problem.Regarding the chirps on the siren the arm and disarm chirps are powered by the nicad pack within the siren if you loose these it indicates the nicads have gone flat(they only charge when the engine is running,and take upto 8 hours to fully recharge if flattened) or the nicads have died due to the age of the siren,or the silent night function as been turned on in the settings menu.The reason a lot of clifford dealers charge to remedy faults on product they haven't fitted is because a lot of it is fitted by unauthorised installers and we end up having to do more to remedy the faults with the installation which is not warranty rather than actual product fault.Not because the original fitter didnt know how to fit they just haven't be'en trained or kept up to date with clifford product.Forgive me if i'm telling you how to suck eggs . ps what are some of the abbreviations you guys keep using like LOL,IMHO and BTW, scuse the ignorance.Thanks

Nick@avs

I see that this issue over the reliability and compatability issues with Clifford alarms on certain vehicles still goes on. Why,why,why do people insist on installing products that they KNOW are both inferior in terms of both quality AND reliability. A quality alarm system should be able to be installed on any vehicle without problems. There are vastly superior systems available at more competitive pricing, but the most important thing is there are products out there which are 100% reliable from my experience. Installation quality is of course important and (sorry to blow my own trumpet here)! I can honestly say I have never seen any job which comes anywhere close to my standard of workmanship. But to add to this I often see work which the installers should be ashamed of but also I've been surprised sometimes that there hasn't been an electrical fire! The point I'm making here is that for every 10 installers there is probably only 1 good one and that 1 is generally not outstanding! Any manufacturer should bear this in mind and build in greater tolerances into their system to allow for the "idiot factor". In Clifford's case they are charging "top dollar" for their alarms so could they explain maybe what the customer is paying for apart from Gimmicks?