rolling roads take 2
16 February 2002, 11:37 AM
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hi there
went to star perfomance on thursday, for a little bit of testing. and here is the results
the rollers don't set the load automatically but it has a set load that comes on at a set speed. Now from my previous post you should now that the load of the rollers should be different form one car model to another and also should vary with the gear ratio.
the rollers were not set originally by the manufacturer to run in 4th gear, but all the rollers in the UK use 4th gear. combine with that the fact these EVOs, WRXs, STIs have extremely short 4th gears things did not equate very well for these cars in the transmission loses forefront.
the load was reduced to accomodate the 4th gear selection used, and the load was applied slightly latter. as i used to be applied at 30mph now that is 2000revs in 4th gear in my car!!! so it was like accelerating against a brick wall!!!
what that has done is it cut the run time from 45sec to 30 secs. you can't believe how much happier the car was after that! no smoke of the exhuast when the cluctch was dipped as per the previous full load run.
transmission loses were then reduced from 140bhp to 68! however power at the wheels remained constant on all the runs that we done varied very slightly from 236-241bhp at the wheels. however when the load was reduced power at the wheels did go up to 246 which is expected.
confused enough yet!
the measuring probe should be used to measure the inlet charge temps. it is set at 20C. for evey 10degrees rise it will compensate for that by giving you 4 bhp. so for example a FMIC equiped car should not get more than 45 degrees ( based on my APC results on my scoob) so that is 10hp added while a TMIC car should not get any more than 60( depending on the load used i suppose) so that is another 16bhp to the original figure. but we won't know unless someone with a probe goes on the rollers.
me personally i think for an evo to loose 68bhp due to transmission is far too low, i would have thought the right figure will be between 75-95. but 68 is a lot closer to the truth than 140bhp loses due to the transmission.
also reducing the load has helped the cross over point go to the right position around 5200 area which also makes more sense.
to sum up. it does take a while to set the car on the rollers and set the loads properly which is just not feasable on a 20 car rush on a RR day. the operator just does not have time to set the rollers individually. i have suggest to jim that the next RR day maybe we should limit the places to 10 cars maybe pay 40 instead of 30 and this way we can get more time per car.
the roller we have a star is a stat of the art, it is very advanced indeed. and we are lucky to have such a set up near by. every thing on this roller is adjustable. i think jim will need couple of more cars, an sti and a UK model i think to experiment with so we can find the correct settings for evey one of them.
i would also like to say we are very lucky to have someone like jim at star perfromance who is willing to listen to his customers and do the best he can to help us.
maybe in the next RR DAY all the short geared cars should be done together and then all the UK LAZY geared cars done as a group. this way the rollers loads need only to be changed once during the day.
uk gearing 3.9
sti, p1,wrx, uk 22b 4.1
type R, RA, evo, 22b 4.44/ 4.5or the evos
so this will explain for example why the shorter geared car ( faster accelerating ) will always get higher power at the wheel figures than the UK cars. but thoeratically they should get less transmission loses. they did not before and now with the new load they will. this way we can actually compare the power at the flywheel figure between cars as power at the wheels is only suited to the same car spec.
i can't remember if i forgot anything
thanks jim
cheers
sam
went to star perfomance on thursday, for a little bit of testing. and here is the results
the rollers don't set the load automatically but it has a set load that comes on at a set speed. Now from my previous post you should now that the load of the rollers should be different form one car model to another and also should vary with the gear ratio.
the rollers were not set originally by the manufacturer to run in 4th gear, but all the rollers in the UK use 4th gear. combine with that the fact these EVOs, WRXs, STIs have extremely short 4th gears things did not equate very well for these cars in the transmission loses forefront.
the load was reduced to accomodate the 4th gear selection used, and the load was applied slightly latter. as i used to be applied at 30mph now that is 2000revs in 4th gear in my car!!! so it was like accelerating against a brick wall!!!
what that has done is it cut the run time from 45sec to 30 secs. you can't believe how much happier the car was after that! no smoke of the exhuast when the cluctch was dipped as per the previous full load run.
transmission loses were then reduced from 140bhp to 68! however power at the wheels remained constant on all the runs that we done varied very slightly from 236-241bhp at the wheels. however when the load was reduced power at the wheels did go up to 246 which is expected.
confused enough yet!
the measuring probe should be used to measure the inlet charge temps. it is set at 20C. for evey 10degrees rise it will compensate for that by giving you 4 bhp. so for example a FMIC equiped car should not get more than 45 degrees ( based on my APC results on my scoob) so that is 10hp added while a TMIC car should not get any more than 60( depending on the load used i suppose) so that is another 16bhp to the original figure. but we won't know unless someone with a probe goes on the rollers.
me personally i think for an evo to loose 68bhp due to transmission is far too low, i would have thought the right figure will be between 75-95. but 68 is a lot closer to the truth than 140bhp loses due to the transmission.
also reducing the load has helped the cross over point go to the right position around 5200 area which also makes more sense.
to sum up. it does take a while to set the car on the rollers and set the loads properly which is just not feasable on a 20 car rush on a RR day. the operator just does not have time to set the rollers individually. i have suggest to jim that the next RR day maybe we should limit the places to 10 cars maybe pay 40 instead of 30 and this way we can get more time per car.
the roller we have a star is a stat of the art, it is very advanced indeed. and we are lucky to have such a set up near by. every thing on this roller is adjustable. i think jim will need couple of more cars, an sti and a UK model i think to experiment with so we can find the correct settings for evey one of them.
i would also like to say we are very lucky to have someone like jim at star perfromance who is willing to listen to his customers and do the best he can to help us.
maybe in the next RR DAY all the short geared cars should be done together and then all the UK LAZY geared cars done as a group. this way the rollers loads need only to be changed once during the day.
uk gearing 3.9
sti, p1,wrx, uk 22b 4.1
type R, RA, evo, 22b 4.44/ 4.5or the evos
so this will explain for example why the shorter geared car ( faster accelerating ) will always get higher power at the wheel figures than the UK cars. but thoeratically they should get less transmission loses. they did not before and now with the new load they will. this way we can actually compare the power at the flywheel figure between cars as power at the wheels is only suited to the same car spec.
i can't remember if i forgot anything
thanks jim
cheers
sam
16 February 2002, 11:55 AM
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Good work Sam/Jim
Looks like you are homing in on the issues and getting results
Is my understanding correct ? the probe is now going to measure the charge temp instead of the air filter inlet temp ?
That should help with more consistant TMIC results if it is.
Is the top mount fan upgrade available yet ?
Thanks again for your work, count me in for the next test day
cc
Looks like you are homing in on the issues and getting results
Is my understanding correct ? the probe is now going to measure the charge temp instead of the air filter inlet temp ?
That should help with more consistant TMIC results if it is.
Is the top mount fan upgrade available yet ?
Thanks again for your work, count me in for the next test day
cc
16 February 2002, 12:00 PM
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Sam,
Good stuff m8ty, now u r on the case with Jim I`d imagine it won`t b long b 4 the system is reflecting our real numbers. We had talked about this and like yourself I couldn`t believe a transmission loss of 103.5 it just didn`t make sense.
Limiting the number of cars on a RR day, sounds like a feasable part of the solution, as u say this will enable each car to be "setup" individually.
Good 2 c you are gettin somewhere on this and like you also said, it`s good that Jim is open minded in his approach.
Keep up the good work
Pete
Good stuff m8ty, now u r on the case with Jim I`d imagine it won`t b long b 4 the system is reflecting our real numbers. We had talked about this and like yourself I couldn`t believe a transmission loss of 103.5 it just didn`t make sense.
Limiting the number of cars on a RR day, sounds like a feasable part of the solution, as u say this will enable each car to be "setup" individually.
Good 2 c you are gettin somewhere on this and like you also said, it`s good that Jim is open minded in his approach.
Keep up the good work
Pete
16 February 2002, 12:24 PM
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Nice one
I called Jim today about organising a rolling road day for a Vauxhall club and he mentioned restricting it to about 16 absolute max which is great because it means Jim/Brian dont have to bust a gut trying to do all the cars AND keep the owners happy.
I would rather have small numbers and more time spent on a car than just having 25+cars chucked on, strapped up, accelerator floored and then chucked back off the rollers to get the other one in
I plan on seeing Jim about doing what someone else here did (0-60 run etc etc) in the very near future as I will be getting a few mods done by then and want to see what its doing so I might see if he can check the loading etc as well if it isn't too much hassle
16 February 2002, 03:39 PM
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CC
it is will be very difficult to get the probe inside the throttle body. so it will be difficult to get accurate readings of the charge temps. i am not sure how it will work. i think because for example we know what the FMIC cars do we can just put the figure in. that is why we need a car with a top mount to go on the rollers and see what happens, if i remember correctly you have got a charge temp probe and hopefully john bank would have finished inventing his own.
jim has spent 2 hours trying different settings. my clutch was dragging on the rollers when high load was applied
that gave me a highest run of 450bhp and 400lbft shame that the power at the wheel stayed the same 
239bhp which is higher than my last run i think the car is loosening off nicely with just under3000miles on the clock.
another interesting factor is the skyline boys may be in for a surprise, ooops as i don't think their transmission loses will be that high any more so it will be very difficult for standard cars to push over 350bhp etc.. which is more accurate me thinks
sam
sam
it is will be very difficult to get the probe inside the throttle body. so it will be difficult to get accurate readings of the charge temps. i am not sure how it will work. i think because for example we know what the FMIC cars do we can just put the figure in. that is why we need a car with a top mount to go on the rollers and see what happens
, if i remember correctly you have got a charge temp probe and hopefully john bank would have finished inventing his own. jim has spent 2 hours trying different settings. my clutch was dragging on the rollers when high load was applied
that gave me a highest run of 450bhp and 400lbft shame that the power at the wheel stayed the same 239bhp which is higher than my last run i think the car is loosening off nicely with just under3000miles on the clock. another interesting factor is the skyline boys may be in for a surprise, ooops as i don't think their transmission loses will be that high any more
so it will be very difficult for standard cars to push over 350bhp etc.. which is more accurate me thinkssam
sam
16 February 2002, 09:34 PM
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SAM THERE HAS NOT BEEN A STD CAR RUN AT STAR YET
THE SILVER ONE HAD A 400 BHP CHIP FITTED.
MY CAR IS DOWN SOUTH GETTING SORTED IT HAD A BURST TURBO PIPE
WILL BE BACK TO STAR TO GET INTO THE 500 BHP PLUS.
SO WHAT WAS THE TRUE POWER OF YOUR CAR SAM
KEITH
THE SILVER ONE HAD A 400 BHP CHIP FITTED.
MY CAR IS DOWN SOUTH GETTING SORTED IT HAD A BURST TURBO PIPE
WILL BE BACK TO STAR TO GET INTO THE 500 BHP PLUS.
SO WHAT WAS THE TRUE POWER OF YOUR CAR SAM
KEITH
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16 February 2002, 09:56 PM
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Hey fellas,
Wot say we do another small session soonish ?
Would b interested 2 c wot difference we have now the Link is back in mine & pulling like a loco
Pete
Wot say we do another small session soonish ?
Would b interested 2 c wot difference we have now the Link is back in mine & pulling like a loco
Pete
16 February 2002, 10:31 PM
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My Primera Sri lost 46 hp through the transmission! i made 145 hp but only 99@ the wheels! This was at star performance, is that a correct reading? seems a big loss for a FWD Primera.
[Edited by Frazer - 2/16/2002 10:33:15 PM]
[Edited by Frazer - 2/16/2002 10:33:15 PM]
17 February 2002, 10:07 PM
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sam at tuning japanese all they do is jap cars most of the time
so they should know how to set there dyno up to take our cars
i have taken some figures from there site for you to look at.
the most powerfull evo at one of there dyno days made
norm power 357.0 bhp
engine output 355.5 bhp
wheel output 260.0 bhp
drag output 95.5 bhp
air temp 16 degrees
all the other evos made
norm power
BHP DRAG AIR TEMP
345/ 95/ 15
342/ 109/ 20
334/ 96/ 16
330/ 93/ 20
the top skyline made
norm power 648.0 bhp
engine power 622.5 bhp
wheel output 493.0 bhp
drag output 129.5
the other skylines made
norm power
BHP DRAG AIR TEMP
544/ 119/ 26
428/ 128/ 24
366/ 136/ 24
IF ANYONE WANTS TO HAVE A LOOK AT THE DYNO SHEETS GO TO
www.tuningjapanese.co.uk click on rolling roads then results.
looking at the top evo that made 260 bhp at the wheels
and a engine output of 357 bhp
how can your car have more power at
the engine than that car, when you had 239 bhp at the wheels
the drag on all the evos were around the (100 mark) what was yours sam.
all the skylines had more drag than what the evos had on the same MAHA ROLLING ROAD.
so please look at this and let me know why you think our drag will be less,also at star our air temp is way to high giving us more power than we should have.
keith
[Edited by keith cowie - 2/19/2002 6:17:46 PM]
[Edited by keith cowie - 2/19/2002 6:19:57 PM]
so they should know how to set there dyno up to take our cars
i have taken some figures from there site for you to look at.
the most powerfull evo at one of there dyno days made
norm power 357.0 bhp
engine output 355.5 bhp
wheel output 260.0 bhp
drag output 95.5 bhp
air temp 16 degrees
all the other evos made
norm power
BHP DRAG AIR TEMP
345/ 95/ 15
342/ 109/ 20
334/ 96/ 16
330/ 93/ 20
the top skyline made
norm power 648.0 bhp
engine power 622.5 bhp
wheel output 493.0 bhp
drag output 129.5
the other skylines made
norm power
BHP DRAG AIR TEMP
544/ 119/ 26
428/ 128/ 24
366/ 136/ 24
IF ANYONE WANTS TO HAVE A LOOK AT THE DYNO SHEETS GO TO
www.tuningjapanese.co.uk click on rolling roads then results.
looking at the top evo that made 260 bhp at the wheels
and a engine output of 357 bhp
how can your car have more power at
the engine than that car, when you had 239 bhp at the wheels
the drag on all the evos were around the (100 mark) what was yours sam.
all the skylines had more drag than what the evos had on the same MAHA ROLLING ROAD.
so please look at this and let me know why you think our drag will be less,also at star our air temp is way to high giving us more power than we should have.
keith
[Edited by keith cowie - 2/19/2002 6:17:46 PM]
[Edited by keith cowie - 2/19/2002 6:19:57 PM]
17 February 2002, 11:27 PM
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"looking at the top evo that made 260 bhp at the wheels
and a engine output of 357 bhp
how can your car have more power at
the engine than that car, when you had 239 bhp at the wheels
the drag on all the evos were around the (100 mark) what was yours sam."
keith i never said my car is making any thing more than 330 or 340bhp with 246 at the wheels that ties up with 90 bhp drag.
i was assuming but to be honest i don't know how the skyline or any car will behave on the rollers.?
what i am saying, is with the run taking less time due to less load the transmission loses will be less. that is all that i am saying.
rolling roads don't really mean anything and they will all vary so much. the only way for example to achieve the same results as tunning japanease is to use their exact same parameters. which is not possible.
one thing you should have in mind is that the power at the wheels figures for your car are very consistant. so for example if you want to check if the mods you have done have worked or not check if the power at the wheels figure as gone up or not. power at the fly wheel is a bit of a compromise. if you increase the load it goes up and if you reduce the load it goes down. if with the load reduced the run takes a lot less time and the car is a lot safer and healtheir.
one thing to bear in mind what makes any rollers more accurate than another? maybe tunning jap rollers are not correct? some rollers don't give the evos any more than 75-90 bhp due to drag while others give slightly higher figures. so whose to say what/ which is correct.
as for the temp probe it all depends. if it is inlet air temp or just an air temp. as far as i know it is to measure the inlet air temp, which means that must be higher than the 18 degrees that tuning jap rollers give. maybe the use very low figures in purpose so that the drag loses don't go any higher as they are high enough?
sam
and a engine output of 357 bhp
how can your car have more power at
the engine than that car, when you had 239 bhp at the wheels
the drag on all the evos were around the (100 mark) what was yours sam."
keith i never said my car is making any thing more than 330 or 340bhp with 246 at the wheels that ties up with 90 bhp drag.
i was assuming but to be honest i don't know how the skyline or any car will behave on the rollers.?
what i am saying, is with the run taking less time due to less load the transmission loses will be less. that is all that i am saying.
rolling roads don't really mean anything and they will all vary so much. the only way for example to achieve the same results as tunning japanease is to use their exact same parameters. which is not possible.
one thing you should have in mind is that the power at the wheels figures for your car are very consistant. so for example if you want to check if the mods you have done have worked or not check if the power at the wheels figure as gone up or not. power at the fly wheel is a bit of a compromise. if you increase the load it goes up and if you reduce the load it goes down. if with the load reduced the run takes a lot less time and the car is a lot safer and healtheir.
one thing to bear in mind what makes any rollers more accurate than another? maybe tunning jap rollers are not correct? some rollers don't give the evos any more than 75-90 bhp due to drag while others give slightly higher figures. so whose to say what/ which is correct.
as for the temp probe it all depends. if it is inlet air temp or just an air temp. as far as i know it is to measure the inlet air temp, which means that must be higher than the 18 degrees that tuning jap rollers give. maybe the use very low figures in purpose so that the drag loses don't go any higher as they are high enough?
sam
18 February 2002, 12:59 AM
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SAM AT T/JAP THEY HAVE THE TEMP PROBE AT THE AIR FILTER THE ONLY
WAY SOME OF THE CARS have 26 DEGREES, THAT IS BECAUSE OF HEAT COMING FROM TURBOS AND HEAT FROM THE INTERCOOLER.
IN THE GARAGE AT STAR IT IS COOL THE SUN DOES NOT EVEN SHINE IN THERE i have a good mind to take thermometer with me next time to see what the temp is.
when a car is on the dyno it is sucking in so much air so fast that
it could empty the volume of air in the garage in no time at all.
it is sucking in the air that fast that it has not got a chance for the heat from the engine to change the temp of the air.
but the inlet charge temp is another thing all together if the runs take to long the charge temp goes up and the bhp comes down.
big intercoolers help but only for so long.
keith
WAY SOME OF THE CARS have 26 DEGREES, THAT IS BECAUSE OF HEAT COMING FROM TURBOS AND HEAT FROM THE INTERCOOLER.
IN THE GARAGE AT STAR IT IS COOL THE SUN DOES NOT EVEN SHINE IN THERE i have a good mind to take thermometer with me next time to see what the temp is.
when a car is on the dyno it is sucking in so much air so fast that
it could empty the volume of air in the garage in no time at all.
it is sucking in the air that fast that it has not got a chance for the heat from the engine to change the temp of the air.
but the inlet charge temp is another thing all together if the runs take to long the charge temp goes up and the bhp comes down.
big intercoolers help but only for so long.
keith
19 February 2002, 09:13 AM
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Sam & Keith the intake temp at the air box is not the same as the temp at the throttle body. That is why you have an intercooler, to cool the charged air. Take for instance my seat 20v turbo when it is on the dyno the intake at the air-box is 10 degrees, but I monitor the intake through the ecu at the end of the run it is reading 69 degrees. Tuning jap are reading at the air box to give a constant reading for all the car on the day, but is not a true corrected fig. Hope this helps.
JIm.
JIm.
19 February 2002, 06:58 PM
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jim
that is what i was trying to explain to keith. the fact they measure the induction or the air temp near the air box does not make them right. according to the germans that built this maha rr it compensates for inlet charge temps.
evil
the rolling road was originally calibrated for 3 gear and not 4th. something to do with some European law?
sam
that is what i was trying to explain to keith. the fact they measure the induction or the air temp near the air box does not make them right. according to the germans that built this maha rr it compensates for inlet charge temps.
evil
the rolling road was originally calibrated for 3 gear and not 4th. something to do with some European law?
sam
20 February 2002, 10:50 PM
#19
Hi Sam: I have tried to get you off line without success. Something wrong @ this end. Yes the 3no. graphs crossed @ 2552 approx. I discounted a previous graph.(325bhp+303ft/lbs all the way from 2000 rpm ....I wish) Also have numerous graphs from Kershaws York over a 10 day period + notes & observations. Will post to if you want. Let me have postal address.
20 February 2002, 11:02 PM
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hi harvy
how did you want to contact me off line? do you have my phone number or something or did you mean email?
you graph crossing is a good reference point but it is not the full story.
check your email.
how did you want to contact me off line? do you have my phone number or something
or did you mean email?you graph crossing is a good reference point but it is not the full story.
check your email.
26 February 2002, 06:25 PM
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keith
fan fecken tastic mate you have to talk me out for a spin. did the cames make the car feel flatter at the bottom end?
fraser
i have got no clue about what hte losses of a 2wd car is
sorry i could not be of any help. but i would suspect that 46 bhp loss from the transmission is ok. considering a 4wd car loses around 80-100bhp through the transmission. just bear in mind of that figure was any less you final figure will be smaller somepoeple aim for high trans loses to inflate their figures
sam
fan fecken tastic mate
you have to talk me out for a spin. did the cames make the car feel flatter at the bottom end? fraser
i have got no clue about what hte losses of a 2wd car is
sorry i could not be of any help. but i would suspect that 46 bhp loss from the transmission is ok. considering a 4wd car loses around 80-100bhp through the transmission. just bear in mind of that figure was any less you final figure will be smaller somepoeple aim for high trans loses to inflate their figures sam
26 February 2002, 06:43 PM
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Fraser
No reply probably means we don't know ! Or that's my reason anyway
If you read Sam's earlier post you will see that R Roads create more drag due to the 2 contact points per tyre. Your 'real' road losses will be less than this.
I read once that typical Transverse FWD transmission losses are around 15 - 18 % RWD approx 20% and 4WD up to 25%
If that helps ?
cc
No reply probably means we don't know ! Or that's my reason anyway
If you read Sam's earlier post you will see that R Roads create more drag due to the 2 contact points per tyre. Your 'real' road losses will be less than this.
I read once that typical Transverse FWD transmission losses are around 15 - 18 % RWD approx 20% and 4WD up to 25%
If that helps ?
cc
26 February 2002, 06:55 PM
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SAM IT JUST PULLS AND PULLS FROM LOW DOWN WITH A VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF LAG.
WE WERE ON THE M58 MOTOR WAY WITH ALL WHEELS SPINNING AT 6000 REVS
IN 3 GEAR ALSO WANTING TO SPIN IN 4TH GEAR THE ROADS WERE DAMP
AT THE TIME.
THIS WAS AT 1.45 BAR BOOST GOING TO TRY TO RUN IT AT 1.6 BAR
BUT NEED TO FIT A AIR FUEL GAUGE TO SEE WHAT THE FUELING IS AT THAT BOOST.
GOING TO STAR TO SEE WHAT IT MAKES THERE SOON
KEITH
WE WERE ON THE M58 MOTOR WAY WITH ALL WHEELS SPINNING AT 6000 REVS
IN 3 GEAR ALSO WANTING TO SPIN IN 4TH GEAR THE ROADS WERE DAMP
AT THE TIME.
THIS WAS AT 1.45 BAR BOOST GOING TO TRY TO RUN IT AT 1.6 BAR
BUT NEED TO FIT A AIR FUEL GAUGE TO SEE WHAT THE FUELING IS AT THAT BOOST.
GOING TO STAR TO SEE WHAT IT MAKES THERE SOON
KEITH
26 February 2002, 07:14 PM
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WE COULD GET IT TO RUN AT AROUND 550 BHP BUT WOULD LOOSE
LARGE AMOUNTS OF TORQUE IT HAS 453 AT 4900 REVS IT WOULD ONLY
HAVE 350 PLUS AT ABOUT 6500 REVS MAX.
IT IS ALL DOWN TO CAM TIMING AND I LIKE IT WHERE THEY ARE SET NOW.
IT IS TORQUE THAT MAKES A FAST CAR NOT BHP
BUT EVERYONE WANTS TO SEE THE BIG BHP ON THE DYNOS
THAT IS OK BUT NOT THE BEST.
IT IS THE TORQUE THAT MAKES THE EVOS SO GOOD NOT THE BHP.
KEITH
LARGE AMOUNTS OF TORQUE IT HAS 453 AT 4900 REVS IT WOULD ONLY
HAVE 350 PLUS AT ABOUT 6500 REVS MAX.
IT IS ALL DOWN TO CAM TIMING AND I LIKE IT WHERE THEY ARE SET NOW.
IT IS TORQUE THAT MAKES A FAST CAR NOT BHP
BUT EVERYONE WANTS TO SEE THE BIG BHP ON THE DYNOS
THAT IS OK BUT NOT THE BEST.
IT IS THE TORQUE THAT MAKES THE EVOS SO GOOD NOT THE BHP.
KEITH
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