ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I'll start by saying the sum total of my knowledge on this subject is zero, which is the reason for the thread, it's something i've been mulling over in my head and having a look on ebay at all the various rebuild parts available, such as housings, compressor wheels, seal kits and bearings.

The things that get me thinking are first of all turbo's don't look all that complex from an engineering point of view, as someone that is quite used to taking things apart and putting them back together I can't see what all the fuss is about, ok I know the wheel and shaft have to be balanced, which is stated that they are on some of the adds.

So it would seem to the untrained eye (me) that all you do is stick a bigger wheel along with a balanced shaft, fresh seals and bearings in, strap on a bigger housing and it's happy days.

Ok so that is an over simplification, or is it?

Problem I have and again part of the reason for the thread, is I don't have the first clue what housings will fit on which body and which wheels shaft and bearings go with said combination, I don't even know what all the various parts of the turbo are called.

So what i'm after is information related to the above and to find out what components will fit one another and what the end result would yield power and spool wise.

I see all these turbos advertised at anywhere from £500 to 2000 then look at the cost of the various components and can't help feeling someone is having a laugh, especially with all the hybrid types that just seem to be an amalgamation of the parts available.

I could be wrong, but don't just spout off at me, show and prove to me why i'm wrong, I'm not interested in conjecture and un-informed opinions as I already have enough of my own, cold hard facts and information is what i'm after.

Knowledge is Power and i'm distinctly lacking in both when it comes to turbos, so please inform me.

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

if it's any help i rebuilt a vf35 myself and 2000 miles later it's still pulling strong.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

It's funny you should start this topic Rich as I was talking about this very subject yesterday to Eddy (Eggy790) and Banny. Eddy's got a Peugeot 306 diesel on which his mate swapped the turbo. It was no bespoke off the shelf hybrid but a mismatch of parts that his mate had laying about in his garage. After a bit of assembling and so on this turbo of unknown origin and parts was slapped on to the car. In Eddy's own words the the first time he put his foot down he was gobsmacked. It boosted from lower down and in the first three gears kept up with his mates Evo!
If it had been anyone else relaying this story I would have dismissed it as bollox, but knowing Eddy as I do he is not one to bullsh!t. In answer to your query it is eminently possible to make up of a turbo of differing parts. Obviously one has to be mindful of matching exhaust and compressor efficiency and balancing turbo output to engine/gearbox capability. I suppose this is more critical in petrol than diesel. Diesels especially the older ones have a little more leeway in tolerance. I'm sure the late Harvey Smith did something similar to his Vectra diesel and attained impressive performance gains for very little outlay.
If you break down the individual components of a turbo there is very little to them. Rich you're right in questioning the economics of what you get for what you pay. I suppose part of the cost may be to offset the R&D but unless you're looking at variable vane geometry or compound turbos a turbo is quite simple in design.
I'm watching this space for some revealing insight.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Maz, that's a perfect illustration of what i'm on about, if you know what bits fit along side one another it can't be that difficult to come up with one's own hybrid.

My initial perusal of ebay reveals several direct swaps for turbos like the td04 and td05, former seems to be able to take a t19 housing although i'm not too sure what wheels and bearing combo's would be suitable to end up with something like andy forests 320 bhp td04 or the SC32 which again I believe is a hybrid td04.

There seems to be lots of kits for the td05 which can be used to upgrade a 16G to either 18G or 20G, which seems like it must be quite a straight forward swap and you effectively end up with a brand new turbo.

The td05 is not really of interest to me as I like the fast spool of the td04, but I have also seen billet wheels and presumably that would turn the td05 into something a kin to the SC36.

There are also kits for the VF range of turbos which get's me thinking would a VF 35 with a billet wheel and a VF40 housing be like a MDT 321 or an SC40.

But again I don't know if i'm talking complete tosh or not which is why I would like those that know more about the subject to show me the error of my ways and point me in the right direction.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Where did you get the parts from and how much did it cost you to do it?

Was it difficult?

marshall332bhp

You might start a new trend if it works well! No reason why it shouldn't.

Captain-Sticky

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ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Exactly.

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

I'd be interested Ditch, as I'm tempted by this...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kinugawa-T...item1e6da7229e

but I think I may be scared every time I was on boost.

DmcL

hmm.. id be interested in the potential for a hybrid also. not much background working with turbos but i did pull apart a new GT3582 i have here for my old BMW turbo im building and all looks straight forward with assembly/disassembly/positioning of centre section and compressor housing, etc, etc. its internally gated also so i after some reading up i did a crafty little mod and notched the housing for the internal WG so the arm can open further for less chance of boost creep which seems an issue with these internally gated GT35's, i will also be getting the turbine housing ported to match the manifold i have and may also get the WG hole ported to further help with any potential boost creep issues.

ill have to look into the TD04 (assuming thats what the WRX and STi use throughout the generations?) but if it is indeed a TD04 we have as standard i think the older mitsubishi eclipse used them or something as i remember some people mentioning TD04's on DSM websites so we may be able to pick up a few tricks from the misi eclipse/eagle talon brigade.

regarding the chinese ebay turbo's, my GT3582 is one of them and shaft play is minimal and all looks fine on taking the unit apart. a customer of mine who brought a 325i turbo up for mapping was running a similar turbo also chinese and it worked like any other turbo tbh.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

yes the TD04 is a mitsubishi turbo, so there's a starting point for more info.

must say i'm a little disappointed at the lack of responses, is it sunny in uk or something for once?

yabbadoo4

iTrader: (8)

very interesting thread, i just bought a very cheap td04 as im toying with the idea of exchanging it for one of andys hybrid 04,s. if i thought i could get some parts to try it myselg id be up for it. will watch this thread with interest.

DmcL

think so.. i know here in northern ireland its been hot and sunny for around a week straight for a change lol

is it a TD04 thats in our scoobs? also are ours internally gated? if so then the notching the housing trick may be of some use for our turbo's to slightly increase the amount of exhaust the WG can flow. heres the notch i did on the GT3582 for my 325i:



lines traced showing how much further back the WG arm can move with the notched housing:

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Yes the TD04 was used from around 2000 I think maybe earlier, it's on all new age WRX's and the STI got the TD05 16G I think.

Yes they are internal waste gate, I think part of what is done to the hybrids out there is porting to tidy up the edges and get a better fit and increase flow around the mating edge of the waste gate as well as the exhaust housing, I think it also goes some way to reduce boost creep, but i'm not sure about that, but i've seen it done on utube.

They also put in a stronger actuator so that they can turn the boost up, which again is for sale on ebay.

But again that's about the sum total of what I know.

Not sure about the notching, as i've not opened a turbo up, and I'm not in the uk until next month so wont be getting one to play with till then.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

They apparently get quite good reviews in the states, but again they are £500+ if you get stung for import taxes as well.

I was more thinking along the lines of a cheap side entry for the TD05, convert to front entry and buy the 20G housing,wheel and refirb kit which would be around half the price.

Coupled with some cheeky porting and a stiffer actuator spring, could see a quick spooling 400bhp turbo.

Henrik

iTrader: (5)

Lots of people on the dsm tuners web site over the pond have built their own turbos, and they seem to work very well.

They all seem to be based on the mitsu td05, though. Kamak compressor wheels seem to be good, as in make power.

I see no reason why you couldn't build your own turbo, and you can even send the core off to have it balanced nowadays.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I'd say try a bit of porting and the T19 housing and wheel and stiffer actuator, they say the T19 which is a saab turbo but still based on the TD04 is a 290bhp turbo, so i'm presuming the combination of the above is what takes it to circa 320bhp, which is the first step i'm looking at taking, but could do with some concrete info.

But I won't know for sure until someone comes on and tells me or I do it myself.

veerinder9

iTrader: (1)

The kinugawa turbos are pretty good, my mate has one his evo and has done for over 10k, hes got the td06 20g producing over 420bhp, he asked them to send as a gift and the company was happy to do so which he avoided all the tax etc.

veerinder9

iTrader: (1)

Im looking to get a td06 20g once my 2.5 is built, cant wait already started buying the bits anf bobs for the build

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Got any links?

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Whats the spool like, I can imagine it being fine on a 2.5L but might be a tad overkill on a 2.0L with standard internals.

I'm not so interested in top end and big numbers, quick spool and drivability are my thing, can't be doing with nothing, nothing, bang...... warp speed, be fun for a day or two then i'd get bored.

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

put it this way the hardest part is cleaning out the groove for the rings. with a stanley blade without cutting your fingers, there is a good video on u tube explaining how to do a td05, we made note of where the compressor wheel was in relation to the exhaust wheel on the shaft (ie lines the fins up) and also where the nut ended up on the shaft, the rest is easy almost forgot parts where from ebay £51 quid

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Is that an offer?

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

It could be if I actually knew what I was saying could be done, but to be completely honest I don't, which again is why I started the thread to see what knowledge is around.

I need people like, banny, jura, shaun, john felstead to comment and set me on the right path, because I may well be talking complete rubbish.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

As above few guys over USA done own hybrid turbo,on some cars those turbo working very nicely,on some think time is again for drawing board

This Kinugawa Turbocharger SUBARU IMPREZA STi TD05H-20G-8cm with 3" Anti Surge Cover should work on bigger engines like is 2.1L or 2.35/2.5L,not sure on 2.0L just due 3" inlet which I'm no 100% convicted by this

Usually MD or SC range is based on Garrett cores with the VF exhaust housing,some companies using their own like SC/Blouch,but mostly companies using VF exhaust housing

For better spool up you should have 7cm exhaust housing(seen 10cm exhaust housing on the Blouch turbo,but this will be good if you are looking more for top end like spool),inlet as many turbo using still standard size of inlet not 3",we run MDX321T with standard size inlet at 490bhp

Jura

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Thanks jura.

Few questions.

Do any of the VF housings fit on the TD range?

Any ideas which cores to use with the various combinations.

Do you have any links to parts or websites/forum threads that have more info on the subject.

Cheers.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Mitsi TD series use a 4bolt flange similar to the GT/garrett turbos.

Only vf/td series from subaru fit subaru stuff.

Looked at this in depth when I fitted a td04 to my starlet

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

ok, do tell, don't be shy glanza.

links.

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Have you asked on 22b Ditch?

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

No mate, I was kind of hoping to drag this site up in the tech rankings and get some worthwhile info on here, instead of the usual playground stuff that goes on in here.