ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

So i was replying to a thread earlier and it got me thinking, it's the old WRX vs STI type argument.

BUT THATS NOT THE DIRECTION I WANT THE THREAD TO TAKE!!!!

I'm more interested in peoples views on the merits of a faster spooling lower powered car in the region of 300bhp over the slower spooling 400+

The reason i'm asking is i've started to notice a bit of a shift with some of the bigger powered boys coming down from 600bhp to mid / early 400's.

Now i'm sure there are other reasons for this such as cost and reliability, but the angle i'm interested in is Useability and Drivability, because lets face it most of our cars are for the road where top end is not an issue and huge power is not useable.

So why all this power chasing, is it all it's cracked up to be.

Alan Jeffery

Like anything else in life, we're all trying to go higher, faster, longer.
Martyn pointed out to me a results sheet from some time ago showing AndyF as setting a new record at 11.5 for a 1/4 mile. Now we're all doing that.
We're also getting better at making high powered cars street useable. We have one on the go here that we know will make over 700bhp on race fuel, but that doesn't stop him running it every day using switchable mapping. It's very smooth, torquey (2.35) and even economical.
More to the point it's his choice. He likes to have a car that will blow away literally anything, and he uses that capability sparingly. It's a bit like having Kelly Brook available for "company". You'd want it to be special, wouldn't you?
As a full time professional car tuner, I'm looking for potential everywhere, and I'm very keen on turbos like the SC32 that offer 300 bhp from minimal modifications. Any decent motor can run them on small top mounts, and they drive as sweet as you like.
The great thing about Subarus is the unlimited scope for modifying.
Vive la difference!

scoobaru mad

iTrader: (2)

Intresting point mate. I think in the majority (me included), we have impreza's, obviously. An we want abit of power out of them. Ive come from the Accord Type R, which i loved to bits! But i wanted just abit more poke.

So i got a 52 bug WRX. The engine is capable of punching above its own weight with fairly decent figures, ie upto 380bhp by Andy forest himself, without any issues.

But i think the main factor with alot of prople (again me included) is money.

As we all know, the WRX gearbox is the weakpoint, an not everyone can afford a 2k install for the 6 speed.

My self. Im after the 340bhp mark.

FMIC
Ported TD05 FE turbo
Pink injectors
Walbro pump
3" system turbo back
Ported up pipe heat wrapped
Ported headers heat wrapped
ITG 80mm intake filter
STI 7 TGV delete intake manifold

Will be mapped by Andy C on the super rom, with duel boost map, and of course, my favourite... ANTI-LAG! Top map will be 1.4b boost, low map is 1.0b boost.

Well thats my 2p on the WRX

Im only guessing the luckier STI owners go for the higher figures, simply because they can really

Scooby B

iTrader: (2)

I always like looking at the subaru wrc stats.

Although limited to only 300bhp, they reach 0-60 in something like less than 2 secs with a stupid amount of torque, all that off road too! I think i would pick one of them over a 800bhp subaru.

lgtuk

What mods make a cars torque go higher without making more bhp though and we always say wrx box will only take 350bhp how much torque will one take?

Camsedin

from what ive read bhp is not the problem for the box. its the torque that is the problem and 350 torque is max.

Keith Collings

iTrader: (3)

I think anything between 300 and 400 is very good for a road car or track day car on tracks with short straights and multiple bends - especially on a Classic. Other track day variants need more power.

Given that, human nature always wants to go one better and if you have the money to spend - why not !. It does seem to get a lot more expensive as you get numbers starting with 5 or 6 - not that I plan to find out

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I'm sure Andy Forrest ran over 500lbs/ft on a five speeder without issues. Similarly Harvey Smith (rip) ran nigh on 600bhp and 464lb/ft of torque on a five speed. It may well be on borrowed time at those levels but it shows it can be done.

http://www.geocities.com/harveysmith...ane585bhp.html

MartynJ

I've ran 520lbft and 558bhp on a V5 5 speed for a years drag racing before 4th spat it's dummy out.
Repaired it quite cheaply and it did another year like that, it's been replaced with a PPG box now which is sat on the floor awaiting my new engine

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

Indeed! Once you go with forged internals, and then rotated or reverse inlet, if you're not doing the work yourself I would imagine it'll cost a bit!

I had a WRX and took it to 324/320. It felt quick, and I have to admit I preferred the 5 speed ratios to those of the six speed, but often I'd find myself feeling it was lacking in the midrange and upper end due to a lack of torque.

Knowing this, and knowing the STI had AVCS and 6 speed as standard I chopped in the WRX and bought an STI, and have bought an SC42 and various other mods to go with it.
The trouble I've found is the power thing for me is addictive. You have some, get used to it, want more. Repeat as necessary .
For me, the SC42 will be as far as I plan to take the car as I don't want to push the standard engine too far.

Whilst some reckon the later 2.0 blocks are "good for 500bhp" on standard internals, I have no immediate plans to test that assumption!
420-430 will be fine for me.
Currently on 382/340 on a 20g and I think it's nearly where I want it to be, just want a little more torque, which is always more of a pain on the EJ20 engines unless you start adding meth into the mix which I'm trying to avoid given this is my daily driver and I don't want to carry meth around in the car with me, nor do I plan on building a stroker block or going for a forged 2.5.....not yet anyway! Think I'd scare myself silly!
Whilst I think it'll be a nice feeling of achievement to have a car with over 400bhp, being my daily driver it's all about the spool and torque, so that's what I'm looking to pursue next year.

Re WRX engines being "good for 380bhp"...I'd say that's for a limited time!
I know of a WRX block which was run at 400bhp for a few years, but 4 or 5 years later, and now in another car, it's not really sounding too healthy now despite being well looked after - think the mapper was a bit worried to do anything further to the car! Originally many of us thought it was a CDB or Semi-closed block, it certainly got some abuse!

Camsedin

suppose all engines are different ..1 could run for years or 1 could blow its guts after a few months.

am taking my wrx to 350 max i think. as ive found with the fast cars ive owned in the past 350 was my sweet spot that i was happy with. will see how a scoob feels at that power as this is my first scoob.

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

Yes and no. Given the WRX blocks are usually open deck and STI's semi-closed (on the newage anyway), it would definitely seem prudent to be a little more careful with pushing the WRX blocks too far.
The STI's also have uprated internals - not entirely sure which of the internals are uprated but I'd guess pistons, valves etc.
A mate took his WRX block to 400 and promptly blew the engine. They're good but not indestructible!

In comparison, Steve (The Gimp) runs over 480bhp on his bug STI on standard internals and has been doing so for a number of years and the engine still seems fine - he just breaks other stuff to compensate
I think the design of the STI block and the uprated internals will definitely help if you planned on taking the car much past 350-360bhp.

And then you have the 2.5 blocks which suffer from the dreaded piston ring failure and melt pistons if pushed too hard, regardless of whether it's an STI or not! It's a bloody minefield haha!

L.J.F

iTrader: (31)

I would choose a fast spooling setup over a laggy big bhp setup every day of the week! IMO 350-400 in a classic more than enough for our roads- it's useable power.

The Pink Ninja

iTrader: (23)

Yep same here, Fast spooling and tourqey down the revs does it for me, So much easier to drive through/out the corners and makes for a better daily driver over a laggier bigger turbo that hits full boost at 5k Rpm

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Well as many things in life, it's subjective, my thinking is with the law of diminishing returns and the ability or lack there of to use all this power whats the point?? other than pub talk, especially on a road car.

For me goog acceleration and mid range punch is where it's at, being able to keep it in the sweet spot whilst not doing mental speeds, especially on the road.

I was running circa 330bhp on my type r for a while having come from the standard 280 ish and found that along with 18" wheels it spoiled the car, now thats by no means a huge amount of power or a major modification, but it upset the overall balance of power and handling.

I now have a Blob wrx wagon with ppp at 94000 on the clock and most of the parts for a forged build sat in the garage, i'm starting to think seriously about where i want to take it, there's nothing wrong with the engine in fact it's sweet as a nut.

But the thing is, i only want to be bolting the one turbo on it as i don't want to be messing around with it once it's done, i don't spend much time in the uk and don't fancy fiddling with my car all the time, so i'm going for the one big hit strategy.

So do i go for the mid 400's or play it safe at around mid 300's and whats the point in huge power, i have a spare gear box and a couple of clutches so not too worried if i knacker a box or burn a clutch and i can DIY the lot, so cost is not a big issue.

So i kind of wondered what other peoples views were about big power over medium and it's useability given my experience with the type r, is this another case of less is more.

sonic93

iTrader: (16)

I don't believe all the myths on here like how many times you heard a 5 speed can't go over 350 / 350 etc . Look at Martyn he dragged his car for 2 years at 500 plus ft lb. dragging is the most abusing you could do to your box. Iv run for a year now at 380/360 on a standard type r box and engine . Touch wood not one prob.

Markfey

iTrader: (7)

I think the important thing to remember is what you want from your car.

Are you interested in 1/4 mile runs and track days or is it just for fast road?

My garage (CP Autos) has always said "If you were to have a race on closed roads down to town and back (4-5 miles each way) you'd win against these 700bhp monsters. Their theory is what my car has been designed for. For example, on a track against these awesome builds you'd be left standing. However on a normal road you're using the car to it's full abilities and potential against a car that isn't even trying.

My dad has just had a new RCM 2.5 lump put into a V4 Sti classic with a simtec and on the original 5 speed box, ancillaries and turbo. Driving it is a totally different experience from my V4 Sti classic. There is so much torque it's pretty pointless using first gear. The power delivery is so smooth it feels like a n/a engine.

Do i like it? Not really, it's totally different from mine, there's no lag, no punch when the turbo comes in and despite his being so much more powerful i feel it is quite dull.

He now has the options of a FMIC, SC billet turbo, 6 Speed box and turning it into another monster. Does he want to do it? No! He says he is permanently running out of road and he's no where near using the car to it's full potential. The only things he's considering is a 6 speed box but he's in no rush.

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Power is preference tbh and 350 is good for road but these bigger turbos are not that laggy IMO depending on turbo and how it's mapped and which gears are chosen for the right foot I don't think they are laggy at all.

But big power is a cost factor and thats where it lies, some people would rather spend it and some wouldn't, I wouldn't, don't belive in putting so much into a car when other things are more important and wouldn't get money back on it,
An investment is my thing lol

The 5 speed box issue is a 50/50 myth try it or not that upto the user if it fails then replace if not then you can tell everyone mine did this torque etc and people will just say how long it will last etc etc and just mock it as per, but that's the risk of the user, maybe it will hold, maybe it won't.

F1 CJE UK

iTrader: (8)

Interesting thread,

fully agree a fast road car doesn’t have to be mega power, after my RCM build lots of people thought cost vs power (460bhp) I must have been mad but I have a great road car lots of power and low Lag, big figures are for the Pub not the road!

stevep360

iTrader: (20)

My car has been through various stages from 260bhp to now 600bhp and the engine that Alan built and Martyn mapped is by far my favourite. Its usable everyday and daft when you put your foot down. I also have piece of mind that its mapped super safe and over engineered for my requirements.

F1 CJE UK

iTrader: (8)

spot on, “over engineered for my requirements” means you can go and enjoy the car rather than listing to every noise

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

This is exactly my point.

I'm thinking to get over 400bhp you need to step up a couple of turbo sizes above the standard TD04, then you start to lose out on spool and low down response, also by the time you hit 3rd gear on the road, with a 400bhp car keeping it on song, your already into licence loosing territory.

I'm not sure if something like the SC32 would be enough on a full fat newage as well as the fact that they are not cheap, i could be left wishing i'd gone for the SC36, and being a skinflint i want the best bang for buck.

The 2.5 goes some way towards solving this problem but that comes at a hefty price tag, if it's to be done with any measure of reliability, and i don't have one of those blocks sat in my garage, my mate had the SC36 on a standard 2.5 which wasn't bad, but just didn't grab me, when i drove it i was afraid the box would **** itself, and it did run rather hot after a short blast.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

If you're an adrenaline junky then big power makes sense

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I am but i also enjoy getting the best out of a car and myself, i'm more into finesse than brute force.

And then there's the cost of a build like yours, as well as the always wondering whats going to break next.

RICHARD J

iTrader: (4)

I think deep down were all power crazed HP junkies, but you have to decide what is best for your type of use & budget. My V3 STI was 300BHP when I bought it, great but not enough. Next step 400BHP, better but still not enough so went for a Meth map & over 440 BHP which is great. Im nearly satisfied but a bigger turbo will be fitted after Christmas to hit the high 400s. I hope I'll be happy at this but if not I'll have to go further. At each level Iv got used to it & then it's not given me the same thrill so Iv gone further.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi there

Depends on turbo and overall/whole setup if you don't want loose on spool or low down response

Many people here running SC42 on 2.0L without the issue and have nice results on them.

We are run 490bhp on the Open Deck Block without the one issue,if its correctly engine build should be good for 500-550bhp



Jura

KAS35RSTI

iTrader: (73)

My mate owns a UK Turbo running over 300hp, always nice to have a passenger ride. Very spooly.

The thing is we forget how fast these cars are from stock.

At the end of the day itn all depends on how nuts you are. Saying that I would happily drive high a 300hp jdm twinscroll any day

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, i'm also planning on using an open deck newage wrx block, mostly because the cost of cdb plus the cost of machining, means i can get a crank and bearings and still have change from that money to spend on ancillaries, the cdb just doesn't make good financial sense under 500bhp, especially for a tight wad self builder like me.

I know you used meth to make those numbers, but what did it do on straight v power, what turbo was it, a graph would be nice too.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

I would go with 2.1L stroker just for extra torque on the 2.1 and you can gain on 2.1L spool

Here is graph on the V-power only



Boost graph



We are run only JDM WRX AVCS heads,with better heads we can break 500bhp on the V-Power and 20% Meth



Jura

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

That looks like it goes well once it's on boost, but is 1bar at 3600 rpm considered to be quick spooling.

I'm off to look at the big turbo thread.