MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Bit of a long shot but worth an ask.

Basically have an issue with car running lean (according to AFR gauge) so off over to ZEN in the moring for Ren to try and figure out what's going on.
Not sure if it's a fuel pump issue, FPR problem or the gauge/sensor is being a ****. He's asked if I can bring another pump along with me to try so we can rule out my HRC pump failing. However, I don't fancy spending 70 odd quid on a new one only to find mine is fine.

Here's the favour, anybody around the Cambridge , Peterborough area got a pump laying around that I could borrow for a day. Would be massively grateful.

Thanks,
Matt.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

is it one of those narrow band afr's??
i thought the only way to fit a wideband afr was to use a sensor in the exhaust.
i think your gauge is making you think you have problems you dont.
too much info matty.........................

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

No, proper Wideband buddy. I wouldn't entertain those crappy narrowband ones mate.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Yes, sensor goes in the downpipe.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

if your stuck im only up the road, i have the pump but its in my car
but its easy to remove on site

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi Matt

What AFR you are getting on idle and on the cruising,full boost/WOT?

Something similar happen to my friend and at the end his Wideband sensor has been broken.He replaced everything and at the end he replaced wideband sensor for new one and refit old parts,which he think can cause this...

Tommy Matt running Innovate LC-1 AFR gauge with wideband sensor fitted in exhaust

Jura

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

i was just wondering as i know the narrow band ones are crap.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Jura,

Idle is normal, flicking between 14 and 14.5
Steady driving it's reading circa 17 which is well lean
On WOT it is showing circa 12 but has an occasional blip to 13 which again is a bit lean. I am running meth so readings will be slightly higher but 13 on WOT and 17 at steady speed are high.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Cheers Dan. Hopefully someone will come through with a spare one laying around.
Thanks though, might just take you up on the offer if I'm stuck

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

im going to pod at 9/9.30 ish so if you get stuck give me a ring and ill pop up with it.

get it sorted i want to see it on the strip in the afternoon

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Agreed looking like is running lean

Steady/cruising should be around 14,on WOT should be too around 12-11,but again all depends how car is mapped

Which one you are running FPR?

If its older Fuelab which is know failing when you are running methanol,on the 22b is good thread about them


Jura

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Using a SX FPR Jura.
Will get it over to ZEN tomorrow and hopefully get it sorted. With a bit of luck it'll be a crappy sensor..

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Bump...

Anybody got a pump, would hate to make tubs take his out for me..

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

Hmm, I've got an Autometer narrowband one to fit under advice from Harvey. Why are they crap?

Martin 2010

iTrader: (9)

is this still needed? i got one im selling but being a nice lad ill let u borrow it first mate. im going cambridge tonight to cinema if u want me to throw it in the motor?

Martin 2010

iTrader: (9)

im coming off laptop now to go get ready so give me a pm if u want me to take it with me n i will leaving about 950pm

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Andy

Narrow band sensors are only accurate right at 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio by weight. They are very inaccurate above and below that

Wideband is way forward if you are looking to know what AFR(Air Fuel ratio) is under WOT,idle,cruising/steady driving etc.

That's why mappers for mapping using rather Wideband than Narrowband

This should help too

http://www.infinite-garage.com/?p=287


Jura

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

I have one lying around at Mattys in Birmingham.
A bit far though
You are welcome to it.

The probabilty is...is that the wideband is playing up.
Mine is at the moment as well.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Not sure why he would advise that, I really wouldn't bother mate. If you want a AFR gauge them Wideband is the only way, narrowband just aren't accurate enough. Save your money and put it towards a Wideband.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Hello fella, what a bugger. Been your way this week, typical.lol....

If your about tomorrow I may well pop over and grab it. Cheers

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

Thanks Jura and Matty.

I have a newage decat downpipe with 2 bosses for wideband so may in the future but for now it's to help distinguish and diagnose a hesitance issue without throwing £100's at sensors etc.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Well we discovered the issue.

Firstly, massive thankyou to Richard at ZEN (known as ren to some) for all his efforts today. The man is a true gent, spent all day on my car and without him Id still be confused. Top man, thanks Rich.

My wideband is fine, we plumbed another wideband in alongside mine and both were giving the same readings so we knew mine was not at fault.
We then looked into the fuel pressure. Richard found that under load the fuel pressure was rising as per normal but then all of a sudden dropping off when it should of remained constant. Checked over the FPR and found nothing so attention turned to the fuel pump. The pump is a HRC 255 and is circa 2 months old so I didn't think it was that.
Pump removed and checked, all looked good. Richard then set up a test on the bench to simulate it working and the results were quite shocking.
As you can see in the pic the outlet pipe on the pump is smooth compared to a walbro which has a small lip to it..



Basically what is happening is when the pressure rises the fuel is escaping out the bottom of the hose. Because the outlet pipe is smooth the fuel hose can't grip tight enough and the fuel flows out through the weakest point. We tried everything to make it seal but couldn't. We then tried the same test on a standard pump which has a lip on the outlet pipe and it was perfect.
I've contacted HRC about this to see what they think. Now got to get myself a walbro and go from there as this HRC is no good for me.

Turbotits

iTrader: (2)

Interesting as ive had a similar fuel pressure problem. Its suprising a hose clip wont keep that joint sealed

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

glad you got it sorted, couldnt really hear you on the phone earlier as i was standing next to the drag strip

how is your wideband sensor plumbed in?? is it welded into the exhaust

Rob Day

iTrader: (78)

2nd time I heard HRC failing. I'm staying with Walbro!

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

It screws in the lamba hole in my downpipe buddy.

Turbotits

iTrader: (2)

Yep but ive had 2 walbro's fail in 4 years. Both low pressure at the top end.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Yep, surprised us as well. We tried everything but it still threw the fuel out. With the standard pump the clip didn't even need to be overly tight to seal, just shows the difference that small lip makes when sealing a hose.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Glad you are sorted Matt,surprising about the fuel pump...

We are running too HRC 340LPH and seems is OK at this level


Jura

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Yep, surprised me too as all the reviews I found prior to purchase were good. Maybe it's just a dodgey pump that slipped through the net, not sure.
Will see what HRC come back with.

Not sure what pump to go with now, was thinking walbro but after seeing the above I'm not sure.