ad172

So the car is currently at Indigo GT having the Head Gasket and uprated Head Stud kit work done and we got talking about uprating the pistons & rods.

The car is a 2.5 running c.385 bhp which is clearly close to the limit on standard internals. Obviously replacing the head gasket will add no value to the car. However if I were to pay the extra to get the forged pistons and associated work, how much value do you think this would add to the car?

Also if I were to go down this route what pistons/ rods would people recommend on the basis the car is a daily driver, I'm not looking for massive power (385 is enough!!!), and I just want a safe engine!!

Many thanks

Adam

stedee

iTrader: (4)

385 on standard pistons, youre brave and so was your mapper, it will defo add a bit of value maybe a grand or 2

legacy_gtb

iTrader: (3)

Changing rods envolves splitting the block, where as just doing just the pistons which are the weak link can be done with the standard rods/crank/block left as is so gives you alot more safe potential power at a much lower cost than a full engine rebuild.

I have an ej257 with standard crank and rods, with CP forged pistons fitted and its conservatively and hopefully reliably mapped to 440/410.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

I thought the rods in the 2.5 were also a weak point ?

chopperman

Paul finch told me the standard rods are good for 400bhp, 450 max. Any more than that i would think liners may become the weak point anyway.
I know im going to sound like my dad but who need's more than 450bhp in a family saloon road car anyway ?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi Adam,

Basically are you looking to sell the car or keep it? If it's the former then it's not so much how much would the components add to the value of the car as how much they would help you shift it! 385 on a 2.5 with forged pistons will be a walk in the park and a buyer could buy with confidence. If you plan on selling and don't forge anything, then get the mapper to turn the wick down on the boost a bit.

If you're having engine out work on a 2.5 you might as well replace the pistons. Anything over circa 1.35 bar on them and there's a good chance they'll pop and you don't need that expense again! If you're keeping the car and going to replace the pistons, I'd also recommend going with the rods too as they'll future proof things for you for the sake of a few hundred extra quid.

Whatever you do get uprated head gaskets and beefier head studs!

Ns04 (470 bhp fully forged Hawk)

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Adding value to any modded car is virtual. The car is worth what it will sell for. It MAY sell for more if you do the mods properly, it may LOSE money since what you got extra may be less than the mods cost, if you follow that?

Are you aware that once the headgaskets are done, these cars have a habit of giving up the bottom end? For that reason only, it would be worth having the block split and new bearings put in, and if you are going that far on a 2.5, then yes, get it forged.

But unless you are building to sell, and have a buyer, don't necessarily expect to spend £x and get back the same extra when you sell.

The older the modded car, the more that rule comes into play. My rebuild was worth more than the car.........go figure.

ste sti spec d

Whats a rough price for getting a 2.5 forged, I ve already up rated the head gasket and stud an nut kit ,
Ste

CREWJ

Unless you are pushing serious power mods just don't command much of a premium these days. Hence, why people are breaking cars instead of selling. Don't expect to make your money back.

chopperman

3-4k depending on parts. You already have studs so that will save a bit.

Tidgy

you never get your money back on mods, period. Anyone who claims you do is living in a dream world.

Mod it for pleasure not for profit

mrmadcap

This is absolutely true, you will actually lose money

chopperman

Depends on the type of mods. I very much doubt you would lose money by adding mods like forged internals to a 2.5.

ad172

Firstly thanks for some very informative responses about what can and cannot be achieved. I'm certainly not looking for any more power, as already mentioned 400Bhp is more than enough for the road. I'm just looking for a little more comfort that the engine is not going to go pop.

The map was installed by a previous owner by a well respected mapper. Perhaps had I known earlier about the issues I would have acted sooner and perhaps got the 'wick turned down!'

On the face of it adding forged pistons is a no brainer as the heads are coming off. As you can imagine there is significant cost to splitting the main block with new gaskets, bearings etc.!!

Any recommendations of pistons? The car is a daily driver so I don't want a set that will be noisy (piston slap!)

Cheers

Adam

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Supertech all the way mate!

Noise from forged pistons is also down to getting them fitted properly though, i.e the block being honed specifically for them!

As soon as my car has warmed up a bit you'd never know they weren't OEM pistons!!

Have a word with David at Api

stedee

iTrader: (4)

to the posts about it wont add value, i`m not saying you will make the money back on what you have spent forging it but especially with scoobs you cant tell me that the above car if forged would not be worth more than a standard one

chopperman

Mahle forged pistons for me. There supposed to be very quiet for forged providing the correct clearances are used. Ive heard Cosworth are quite noisy but have no personal experience with them.

ad172

Well Wiesco piston are being proposed at the moment. Anyone have any experience with these?

Would any work be required to the piston chamber? I.e. honing?

Markyscoob

I have Wiseco pistons and K1 rods in mine with ACL bearings and a balanced standard STi crank. I can't for the life of me see how you you would wish to change the pistons without the rods/splitting the engine.

Removing the sump, undoing the big ends and pulling the rods up will they catch then knocking the pins out is totally mickey mouse IMHO.

I got Alan Jeffery to do my 2.5STi after the head gaskets went, and a proper job it was too. I only run 350 ish with Martyn's map in high boost and about 300ish in low boost. Most of the time i'm in low boost ot be honest.

I know the engine is reliable and will not let me down like this. Happy days.

ad172

Mark

Replacing just the pistons is not something that is being proposed by Indigo GT and I am yet to get advice from them about it. However there is considerable cost in splitting the main block and changing the rods & bearings. Don't forget you need to change all the main block gaskets and bolts as well!!

Tidgy

you will never add the 4k it costs you to the value of your car if you sell it, thats why you will loose money

chopperman

I guess we will see if that's true in a few years when we see the price of the standard knackered cars vs the price of the healthy forged cars.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

FYI, your already buying the expensive gaskets, there are only 3/4 rubber o rings in the block halves that cost nothing.

If you go for pistons then the bores MUST be honed as drop in pistons are a mickey mouse way of doing things and you will be asking for trouble.

The engine is out, and it really is not a great deal more cost wise, as a large part of your cost is the in and out.

The collective opinion from those that have been there and done that is.

If its out, forge the lot and fit new bearings, oil and water pump, cambelt kit.

Most would also drop in a new clutch as well for the sake of £150 ish, exeddy pink are popular at the moment.

The moto here is; Do it right; Do it once.

IMO, a forged engine does command a premium over standard, even more so if it's been done by a respected engine builder with a proven track record and known parts.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

throw it away and put a 2.0 in it, they built that engine properly.

Tidgy

why wait, look at prices of classics, they tell you all you need to know.

if you got more money for a car with mods than it cost to mod people would do the mods to make profit a profit selling. on the flip side you would never be able to sell it because people would just mod there own due to it being cheaper.

simply put no mater how much money you dump into a car on mods you will always loose there value. Yes it might add a bit to the car's overall value, but never as much as it costs to do them.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

^^ While i agree with regards to the average car/average mods, something like a RCM fully forged 2.35 with cosworth internals, APS fmic, syvecs, 500bhp+ All supporting mods, will get very close to the cost of mods to a buyer that knows the hastle/time involved in doing such a build.

I paid ever so slightly over what i wanted to on my blob wrx, based on it being black and having AP 4pots and ppp, but saying that i still think i got a good deal @£4k when others without either were selling between £3.5k & £4.3k about 8 months ago.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

sounds like you got a great deal and totally agree if it was an rcm build.
i recently helped a member rebuild a damaged impreza which was midly modified by a past member on here and the mods were an utter mess. bare wires twisted together. missing bolts etc.
unless modified by a reputable person it would put me off buying and id get a standard one and spend the saving on modding it myself

Tidgy

so a car with a rcm 500+ build costing 30k (which is about the figure including all supporting mods) will sell for 40k (30k for build + 10k car)?

mm ap4 pots are what, 900 new? so if you paid 4k for a car with normal rate of £3500 then according to my maths theres £400 misisng in that somewhere, and i will put money on that wasn't the only mods it had.

You never get your money back on mods, i don't get your logic on why you would.

legacy_gtb

iTrader: (3)

Tidgys right! The argument there is contradictory!

"something like a RCM fully forged 2.35 with cosworth internals, APS fmic, syvecs, 500bhp+ All supporting mods, will get very close to the cost of mods to a buyer that knows the hastle/time involved in doing such a build."

No mate, your talking at least a £20k build there.

Modding cars is a money pit! It can be done on a budget if you reallllly know what your doing, but that leads most people into a "buy cheap, buy twice" situation which costs half as much again as doing things right in the first place. Its really easy to spunk £20k into a car, which come sale time you'll be lucky to get half of back again!

Im not bitter about spending out on my car as its MY car, so the resale value means nothing! When its finished i know ill feel the love ..... at the moment im not so sure!

Most decent builds ive seen for sale recently seem to be up for about the same as the cash wrapped up in theyre engine bay alone, so theres absolutely no way any mods add theyre own weight in value onto the resale value.

One thing i would say about the 2.5's though, is with theyre reputation for having pistons made of chocolate and HG's made of cheese, fitting decent internals will make it an easyer sale as i think the standard 2.5's have had a pretty bad rep for quite a while now and people avoid them like the plague! .... especially now theyre starting to get into the 50k+ bracket.

MattyB1983

iTrader: (51)

Sorry but that is utter rubbish.
Ring RCM and ask them what that would cost to build, at a complete guess I'd say at least 20K maybe more. No way would you see that money back once you've factored in the cost of the car etc.