track day lap times
22 March 2001, 10:21 PM
#1
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im interested to know from the guys that get their scoobs on track- what sort of times do you get at various circuits.
ive done a couple of bike track days and i always assumed the cars would be quicker because of the cornering??
tiggs
ive done a couple of bike track days and i always assumed the cars would be quicker because of the cornering??
tiggs
23 March 2001, 12:57 AM
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stef, thats about what i thought. i do brands indy in 53ish on an R1 (half decent rider) although those are quick times for dono. I`d be lucky to see much under 1.40- do the cars do the extra bit of track (melbourne loop) ???
tiggs
ps- interesting comment on insurance- i run a laptimer and except that id best not get off before i get back to the pits! do you guys use track only insurance or do you rely on road policies? (i appreciate the scoob is bit more expensive than a bike and so insurance is a bigger issue)
by the way tony, i ride in a particually non gay way thanks!
[This message has been edited by Tiggs (edited 23 March 2001).]
tiggs
ps- interesting comment on insurance- i run a laptimer and except that id best not get off before i get back to the pits! do you guys use track only insurance or do you rely on road policies? (i appreciate the scoob is bit more expensive than a bike and so insurance is a bigger issue)
by the way tony, i ride in a particually non gay way thanks!
[This message has been edited by Tiggs (edited 23 March 2001).]
23 March 2001, 10:11 AM
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It's OK to get your times from video footage taken from the day though. 
Round Donno a decent Scoob will complete a lap in around 1min 25-30s on the National circuit.
Full Silverstone circuit 2min 20s (ish)
Brands Indy is about 1 min.
Knockhill the same.
I can't remember any others.
I guess bikes are quicker at most circuits to be honest, with the right rider.
Stef.
Round Donno a decent Scoob will complete a lap in around 1min 25-30s on the National circuit.
Full Silverstone circuit 2min 20s (ish)
Brands Indy is about 1 min.
Knockhill the same.
I can't remember any others.
I guess bikes are quicker at most circuits to be honest, with the right rider.
Stef.
23 March 2001, 10:24 AM
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after having just played on shorter circuit of knockhill i think i would get lost on a circuit that took over twice aslong to do a lap, it must be wicked.
Im going to make sure that when i return from aussie, i have a track car of variety either my rst or whatever, and visit all the tracks in england, i think that sounds likea complete riot!!!
rw
Im going to make sure that when i return from aussie, i have a track car of variety either my rst or whatever, and visit all the tracks in england, i think that sounds likea complete riot!!!
rw
23 March 2001, 01:53 PM
#7
Hi tiggs, the laptime at dono is the short circuit without the melbourne loop.
My fastest lap to date in the westfield on road tyres is 1min 20 secs round there.
I recon on slicks i could do a 1.16 lap.
My times at knockhill were 60 seconds on a fairly green track after snow, i recon i could be doing 55's round there.
Dunno on the rest, cant remember my cadwell times but i know it was only 5 seconds off a 5litre V8 esprit GT car i built, i was pretty chuffed with that.
You want to try the nurburgring steve, 13.5 miles of blind crests and off camber corners with no runoff. Its the big daddy. You get to share it with the bikers at the same time also (i dont like that!) and in 8 laps of the track only 2 bikes past me. Both Stef and I were passing bikes like they were going backwards, the video footage is pretty mind bogling.
My fastest lap to date in the westfield on road tyres is 1min 20 secs round there.
I recon on slicks i could do a 1.16 lap.
My times at knockhill were 60 seconds on a fairly green track after snow, i recon i could be doing 55's round there.
Dunno on the rest, cant remember my cadwell times but i know it was only 5 seconds off a 5litre V8 esprit GT car i built, i was pretty chuffed with that.
You want to try the nurburgring steve, 13.5 miles of blind crests and off camber corners with no runoff. Its the big daddy. You get to share it with the bikers at the same time also (i dont like that!) and in 8 laps of the track only 2 bikes past me. Both Stef and I were passing bikes like they were going backwards, the video footage is pretty mind bogling.
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23 March 2001, 02:06 PM
#8
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Not wanting to start the Bike Vs Car arguement, but... 
In the two Bike Vs Car on track articles/Videos (R1 Vs 911 C4, and R1 Vs STiV) Both were virtually identical, car had a *very* marginal advantage over the bike.
Separate issue - last RMA track day I went to at Donno (national) timed a number of cars.
TVR Cerbera - 1.21 (1.18 with Willie Green at the wheel)
993 911 GT2 - 1.12
GT40 - 1.10
'Race prepared' F40 (detuned from 1000bhp to c700!!) - 1.08
1995 F1 car - 56secs
AND wasn't *really* pushing it due to an oil leak!!
In the two Bike Vs Car on track articles/Videos (R1 Vs 911 C4, and R1 Vs STiV) Both were virtually identical, car had a *very* marginal advantage over the bike.Separate issue - last RMA track day I went to at Donno (national) timed a number of cars.
TVR Cerbera - 1.21 (1.18 with Willie Green at the wheel)
993 911 GT2 - 1.12
GT40 - 1.10
'Race prepared' F40 (detuned from 1000bhp to c700!!) - 1.08
1995 F1 car - 56secs
AND wasn't *really* pushing it due to an oil leak!!
23 March 2001, 02:15 PM
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john, i presume i will be seeing u at the nurburgring this april?!?!?
i look forward to the whole experience very much...
ps 55 seconds is down with touring cars on knockhill.
now that is quick1!!!!
rw
i look forward to the whole experience very much...
ps 55 seconds is down with touring cars on knockhill.
now that is quick1!!!!
rw
23 March 2001, 02:29 PM
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Glad to hear it Tiggs! It's just that I have had many a conversation with bikers who are convinced that a Subaru is quicker in the corners. A great number of my friends have bikes and there is a constant stream of mickey-taking between us.
On a standalone corner it is simply not true that an Impreza is quicker. Not without slicks and a serious aero package (Group C style). I have seen bikes running around parts of the Nurburgring at breathtaking speeds, well beyond anything that an Impreza is capable of. It's just that many riders do not comprehend exactly how quick these superbikes are. I accept that roles may be reversed when in an S bend where a biker will need to stand his bike up and crank it over in the other direction, or where a Subaru can benefit from hopping kerbs. But in a straight fight any 600cc+ machine should leave an Impreza for dead. Obviously it is easier and safer to drive a car at 95% than it is to ride a bike at 95% and I have great respect for what a good rider can do. I believe that this is why you get large groups of bikers being beaten by Imprezas (and even Westfields). I once drove away from an R1 in a Puma 1.4 and that wasn't because the Puma was quicker in the corners. That was just plain embarassing!
It's just that I have had many a conversation with bikers who are convinced that a Subaru is quicker in the corners. A great number of my friends have bikes and there is a constant stream of mickey-taking between us.On a standalone corner it is simply not true that an Impreza is quicker. Not without slicks and a serious aero package (Group C style). I have seen bikes running around parts of the Nurburgring at breathtaking speeds, well beyond anything that an Impreza is capable of. It's just that many riders do not comprehend exactly how quick these superbikes are. I accept that roles may be reversed when in an S bend where a biker will need to stand his bike up and crank it over in the other direction, or where a Subaru can benefit from hopping kerbs. But in a straight fight any 600cc+ machine should leave an Impreza for dead. Obviously it is easier and safer to drive a car at 95% than it is to ride a bike at 95% and I have great respect for what a good rider can do. I believe that this is why you get large groups of bikers being beaten by Imprezas (and even Westfields). I once drove away from an R1 in a Puma 1.4 and that wasn't because the Puma was quicker in the corners. That was just plain embarassing!
23 March 2001, 02:46 PM
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tony, having pulled away from an r1 i assume you then stopped and demand he sold the bike to someone that could ride it!!!
hopping kerbs! i dont mind laying a bike over but hopping kerbs i`ll leave to cars!
youre right about it being safer at 95%, first time i lost the back end in a road car i went back to the roundabout to try again, first time i was sidways on a bike (exiting copice at dono.) i had nightmares for a week!
tiggs
hopping kerbs! i dont mind laying a bike over but hopping kerbs i`ll leave to cars!
youre right about it being safer at 95%, first time i lost the back end in a road car i went back to the roundabout to try again, first time i was sidways on a bike (exiting copice at dono.) i had nightmares for a week!
tiggs
23 March 2001, 02:55 PM
#14
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>I once drove away from an R1 in a Puma 1.4 and that wasn't because the Puma was quicker in the corners. That was just plain embarassing!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now i wish i had been there to see that one!!!
I bet that F1 car was pushing it Gary, nothing does a 56s lap without giving it large.
As for the F40 and GT40 (and the F1 car) can i have a go?
On the insurance front, its a mixture, some have track cover in their road policy, some take out seprate cover for the day.
Yes, i am going to the ring at easter in my plastic pig, driving it there this time!!
Should be one hell of a convoy, RS200, 355, 22B, westie, scoobies galore and the odd oil burning hairdresers car (BMW330D)
[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 23 March 2001).]
Now i wish i had been there to see that one!!!
I bet that F1 car was pushing it Gary, nothing does a 56s lap without giving it large.
As for the F40 and GT40 (and the F1 car) can i have a go?
On the insurance front, its a mixture, some have track cover in their road policy, some take out seprate cover for the day.
Yes, i am going to the ring at easter in my plastic pig, driving it there this time!!
Should be one hell of a convoy, RS200, 355, 22B, westie
, scoobies galore and the odd oil burning hairdresers car (BMW330D) [This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 23 March 2001).]
23 March 2001, 06:35 PM
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Timing on track-days is a no-no, but what about using, say, an AP-22 performance meter, that logs your g-forces (thus speed, acceleration etc.).
The data is only of use after downloading to a PC, so it is really a record of your drive (a bit like a video).
Are such devices specifically banned on track days (Stef?)?
mb
The data is only of use after downloading to a PC, so it is really a record of your drive (a bit like a video).
Are such devices specifically banned on track days (Stef?)?
mb
23 March 2001, 06:44 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by johnfelstead:
<B>
I bet that F1 car was pushing it Gary, nothing does a 56s lap without giving it large.
As for the F40 and GT40 (and the F1 car) can i have a go?
[/quote]
Get in the queue
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by johnfelstead:
<B>
and the odd oil burning hairdresers car (BMW330D)
[/quote]
Oi!!
<B>
I bet that F1 car was pushing it Gary, nothing does a 56s lap without giving it large.
As for the F40 and GT40 (and the F1 car) can i have a go?
[/quote]
Get in the queue
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by johnfelstead:
<B>
and the odd oil burning hairdresers car (BMW330D)
[/quote]
Oi!!
23 March 2001, 07:33 PM
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Can I add to this? Oh yes indeedee!
At Mallory Park, I was approx. 4 seconds a lap faster on my old Blade than in the Scooby. Bear in mind also that the car had a free run from the hairpin straight down Devils Elbow, whereas on the bike I had to take the Bustop Chicane at the top of devils elbow, so that slows the bike down even more. At Mallory at least, the bike kicks Scooby ***.
However, my mates F3000 car is about 12 seconds per lap faster than the Scooby. A lap is only 1.3 miles long!
As for Donno, a 1:13 has been posted on the National circuit by someone not too far from where I'm sitting. That's a road bike on road tyres....
Matt
At Mallory Park, I was approx. 4 seconds a lap faster on my old Blade than in the Scooby. Bear in mind also that the car had a free run from the hairpin straight down Devils Elbow, whereas on the bike I had to take the Bustop Chicane at the top of devils elbow, so that slows the bike down even more. At Mallory at least, the bike kicks Scooby ***.
However, my mates F3000 car is about 12 seconds per lap faster than the Scooby. A lap is only 1.3 miles long!
As for Donno, a 1:13 has been posted on the National circuit by someone not too far from where I'm sitting.
That's a road bike on road tyres....Matt
23 March 2001, 07:47 PM
#19
But Matt, that doesnt count mate because your a head case on a Bike and you know it!
Only sanely achieved lap times count.
Bugger, thought you would bite on the Oil Burner one too.
LOL
Only sanely achieved lap times count.
Bugger, thought you would bite on the Oil Burner one too.
LOL
23 March 2001, 09:07 PM
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boomer.
The AP-22 is not capable of lap timing, so I don't see it being a problem. Info doesn't have to be downloaded to a pc though, you get get the info off screen.
Having said that, it can also measure in-gear acceleration which is timing, but as long as you used it for g-force measurement and nothing else it should be ok.
Stef.
The AP-22 is not capable of lap timing, so I don't see it being a problem. Info doesn't have to be downloaded to a pc though, you get get the info off screen.
Having said that, it can also measure in-gear acceleration which is timing, but as long as you used it for g-force measurement and nothing else it should be ok.
Stef.
24 March 2001, 04:27 PM
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Doh!
and here's me thinking that g-force and acceleration were one and the same thing
But seriously, would recording the g-force/acceleration of your car around the track be considered wrong. Sure you can calculate your speed indirectly, but only in the same way as counting the frames or seconds on a video?
mb
and here's me thinking that g-force and acceleration were one and the same thing
But seriously, would recording the g-force/acceleration of your car around the track be considered wrong. Sure you can calculate your speed indirectly, but only in the same way as counting the frames or seconds on a video?
mb
25 March 2001, 03:11 AM
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On the cars vs bikes thing, I'm with SimonD. I know I could go quicker on a bike, no probs. But I'm bu99ered if I'm going to try!
I've had two offs in my Scoob at track days - the first, had it been on a bike, would have been expensive and probably put me off for good. The second would have put me in hospital for sure. And my son, too. Sod that.
But in the car, you can just laugh it off (in a scary, hysterical sort of way) and live and learn. I have gained serious respect for excessive speed (and pain).
Richard
PS Bike racers are the hardest, fastest, bestest, meanest ba5stards on the planet. Stick Valentino Rossi in a Ferrari and within a season Schumaker would be in big trouble.
I've had two offs in my Scoob at track days - the first, had it been on a bike, would have been expensive and probably put me off for good. The second would have put me in hospital for sure. And my son, too. Sod that.
But in the car, you can just laugh it off (in a scary, hysterical sort of way) and live and learn. I have gained serious respect for excessive speed (and pain).
Richard
PS Bike racers are the hardest, fastest, bestest, meanest ba5stards on the planet. Stick Valentino Rossi in a Ferrari and within a season Schumaker would be in big trouble.
25 March 2001, 12:38 PM
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stick rossi in an ferrari and watch out shumy???
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL CRYING OUT LOUD...
falling about.....
oh deary me... yeah im so sure...
perhaps some of the lamer drivers yeah as im sure rossi is good, but i regret to inform you that u have to be mistaken and illusions of grandeur have clouded your vision.
schumy???? hahaha
oh lordy im gonna cry now...
beat schumy... te he he he ... yeah right.
rw
( sorry if this seems over the top, and i do like my bike racing and rossi is excellent, but sometimes people forget that schumacher is the man totally )
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL CRYING OUT LOUD...
falling about.....
oh deary me... yeah im so sure...
perhaps some of the lamer drivers yeah as im sure rossi is good, but i regret to inform you that u have to be mistaken and illusions of grandeur have clouded your vision.
schumy????
hahahaoh lordy im gonna cry now...
beat schumy... te he he he ... yeah right.
rw
( sorry if this seems over the top, and i do like my bike racing and rossi is excellent, but sometimes people forget that schumacher is the man totally )
25 March 2001, 03:10 PM
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robman,
aye, you _should_ keep it level, but if you are only comparing laps (rather than determining absolute speeds or accelerations) then it should allow you to see how different driving styles, tyres, pressures, gears etc can affect things.
mb
aye, you _should_ keep it level, but if you are only comparing laps (rather than determining absolute speeds or accelerations) then it should allow you to see how different driving styles, tyres, pressures, gears etc can affect things.
mb
26 March 2001, 09:49 AM
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My understanding of the insurance stipulation re: timing was that you are not allowed to take part in "TIMED EVENTS".
Now to me, that means an event involving a set number of people who are all timed to establish the fastest driver?
Under these rules, I think that simply timimg your laps for your own interest would not breach that rule? Donington don't allow you to time your laps, don't know the exact reason though?
The car V Bike article that I saw was set up around a mock, town scenario with pedestrian crossings Etc. and was done with an R1 with a shagged front tyre. Bikes will whup *** on track.
I think we should have a mixed day, bikes and cars, just to let people see how impressive (and easy) it is to have a bike pass you at high speed?
I went to a Dono track day recently and during lunch, Ron Haslem was there testing his sons 500GP bike, He was doing 3 or 4 laps at a time and I timed lap 2 at somewhere in the 1 minute 10 second area! He was clearing the pit straight in around 9-10 seconds!!!!
Mike.
Now to me, that means an event involving a set number of people who are all timed to establish the fastest driver?
Under these rules, I think that simply timimg your laps for your own interest would not breach that rule? Donington don't allow you to time your laps, don't know the exact reason though?
The car V Bike article that I saw was set up around a mock, town scenario with pedestrian crossings Etc. and was done with an R1 with a shagged front tyre. Bikes will whup *** on track.
I think we should have a mixed day, bikes and cars, just to let people see how impressive (and easy) it is to have a bike pass you at high speed?
I went to a Dono track day recently and during lunch, Ron Haslem was there testing his sons 500GP bike, He was doing 3 or 4 laps at a time and I timed lap 2 at somewhere in the 1 minute 10 second area! He was clearing the pit straight in around 9-10 seconds!!!!
Mike.
26 March 2001, 09:52 AM
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Forgot to mention.
As an example of speed, the faster (our) club drivers are taking craner at around 120mph, I'm sure I read somewhere that the superbikes take Craner more in the 140 mph region.
As an example of speed, the faster (our) club drivers are taking craner at around 120mph, I'm sure I read somewhere that the superbikes take Craner more in the 140 mph region.
26 March 2001, 12:21 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike Tuckwood:
<B>Forgot to mention.
As an example of speed, the faster (our) club drivers are taking craner at around 120mph, I'm sure I read somewhere that the superbikes take Craner more in the 140 mph region.[/quote]
Does a Superbike (ie the pinnacle of Two wheel performance) really only take craner 20 mph faster than a 21k road car?? What would happen if you go to the 'superbike' of the four-wheeled world F1 car, or even 'just' a GT2 sportscar, or a mere road super-car (or even just JFs plastic pig? ) How much slower would a mid-market road bike be?
Go to extremes, what respective times do F1 cars and superbikes manage round the same track?
[This message has been edited by GaryC (edited 26 March 2001).]
<B>Forgot to mention.
As an example of speed, the faster (our) club drivers are taking craner at around 120mph, I'm sure I read somewhere that the superbikes take Craner more in the 140 mph region.
[/quote]Does a Superbike (ie the pinnacle of Two wheel performance) really only take craner 20 mph faster than a 21k road car??
What would happen if you go to the 'superbike' of the four-wheeled world F1 car, or even 'just' a GT2 sportscar, or a mere road super-car (or even just JFs plastic pig? ) How much slower would a mid-market road bike be?Go to extremes, what respective times do F1 cars and superbikes manage round the same track?
[This message has been edited by GaryC (edited 26 March 2001).]