What do I do guys?
17 May 2010, 12:04 PM
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What do I do guys?
Right, I could really use some advice here chaps....
I have recently spent a wedge of cash on my 97 Uk Turbo 2000 getting it through its MOT'd and Tax, and lots of other bits and bobs (that all add up mind you!)
I got the car back a couple of weeks ago after the MOT and work being done, and took her for a good blast, and overheated due to a leak in the radiator. New Rad on, but I'm still overheating. I need to check the thermostat to see if thats at fault, but i've fitted a new rad, new rad cap to my forge header tank, but still overheating, and at this stage, I think when I have overheated, my head gasket has gone. Car runs great, no knocks/bangs/smoke etc, no oil in water or water in oil, just keeps overheating when I give it some stick.
Now, if I try the stat, and there is no improvement (I have burped the coolant system three times since changing the rad, and my water pump is working fine) I'm not sure if I can afford the 800 quid to have the HG done.
What I need advice on, is what I'm likely to get for the car in its current state, is it worth stripping all the goodies off (lots of whiteline stuff, uprated header tank, hoses etc etc) and selling it as a standard car, is it worth completely breaking it, if anyone has been in this position, advice would be appreciated?
Ive had three years in a Subaru now, and as much as i love the brand and the car, I think the time might have come for me to get something a little more economical for the short term, and come back to an Impreza in a year or so.
The car has a Link G3 ECU fitted with a TD04 Hybrid Turbo, Ported Headers, Full De-cat afterburner exhaust with up and down pipes, and is running 319-318.
Bodywork is good apart from slight scratches on the two passenger doors, and currently has a white passenger wing (however, new doors and wings were due to be fitted next week)
I guess I need an idea of what the rolling shell is worth, what the bits and bobs are worth, and what is the best way to approach this, Ive never done anything like this before.
I await your responses
I have recently spent a wedge of cash on my 97 Uk Turbo 2000 getting it through its MOT'd and Tax, and lots of other bits and bobs (that all add up mind you!)
I got the car back a couple of weeks ago after the MOT and work being done, and took her for a good blast, and overheated due to a leak in the radiator. New Rad on, but I'm still overheating. I need to check the thermostat to see if thats at fault, but i've fitted a new rad, new rad cap to my forge header tank, but still overheating, and at this stage, I think when I have overheated, my head gasket has gone. Car runs great, no knocks/bangs/smoke etc, no oil in water or water in oil, just keeps overheating when I give it some stick.
Now, if I try the stat, and there is no improvement (I have burped the coolant system three times since changing the rad, and my water pump is working fine) I'm not sure if I can afford the 800 quid to have the HG done.
What I need advice on, is what I'm likely to get for the car in its current state, is it worth stripping all the goodies off (lots of whiteline stuff, uprated header tank, hoses etc etc) and selling it as a standard car, is it worth completely breaking it, if anyone has been in this position, advice would be appreciated?
Ive had three years in a Subaru now, and as much as i love the brand and the car, I think the time might have come for me to get something a little more economical for the short term, and come back to an Impreza in a year or so.
The car has a Link G3 ECU fitted with a TD04 Hybrid Turbo, Ported Headers, Full De-cat afterburner exhaust with up and down pipes, and is running 319-318.
Bodywork is good apart from slight scratches on the two passenger doors, and currently has a white passenger wing (however, new doors and wings were due to be fitted next week)
I guess I need an idea of what the rolling shell is worth, what the bits and bobs are worth, and what is the best way to approach this, Ive never done anything like this before.
I await your responses
17 May 2010, 01:28 PM
#2
Why don't you just take the Thermostat out and leave it out. If you are still overheating after that and you are sure there are no leaks and no air gaps in the system get the system pressure tested. Have you had a sniff test done yet?
17 May 2010, 01:55 PM
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No, not yet mate. I have had it to a garage, and it seems like they think there is combustion gases in the coolant header tank. No test done (I havent wanted to drive it anywhere) but thats there opinion. I will whip the stat out tonight, and see if its ok, but If the HG has gone, I think I need to get rid due to finances at the moment.
So, this post is to try and get a grasp of what I could possibly manage to re-coup from the car, should it be worst case scenario, and be HG failure.
If it isnt, happy days, but Ive got a feeling it is after doing alot of reading on here it seem to be the same symptoms as others who have had HG failure
So, this post is to try and get a grasp of what I could possibly manage to re-coup from the car, should it be worst case scenario, and be HG failure.
If it isnt, happy days, but Ive got a feeling it is after doing alot of reading on here it seem to be the same symptoms as others who have had HG failure
17 May 2010, 02:38 PM
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Has it been losing coolant?
Has coolant been spat out of the overflow (behind passenger headlight)?
If yes to both then its probably HG gone.
Has coolant been spat out of the overflow (behind passenger headlight)?
If yes to both then its probably HG gone.
17 May 2010, 03:12 PM
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Since I have fitted the new Rad, yes, I took it out once for a blast after really slowly refilling the coolant (proper antifreeze fixture)
My fans had always blown hot air up until the new rad was fitted. When the new Rad was fitted and i noticed the temp gauge started to rise, I was no longer getting hot air from the heater.
Car was running perfectly till the rad popped and I overheated. (No other issues)
New Rad fitted, but overheated again, and i'm wary of driving it again until I identfy the problem.
Can someone tell me what I need to remove the stat?
I should add, when the new rad was fitted and I over heated, I had not gone anywhere near boost, i'd done about 3 miles, and hadnt gone over 2,500 rpm.
Ive read head gaskets can go, but only overheat on boost. I wasnt on boost at all, could a blown HG still cause me to over heat so low in the rev range?
My fans had always blown hot air up until the new rad was fitted. When the new Rad was fitted and i noticed the temp gauge started to rise, I was no longer getting hot air from the heater.
Car was running perfectly till the rad popped and I overheated. (No other issues)
New Rad fitted, but overheated again, and i'm wary of driving it again until I identfy the problem.
Can someone tell me what I need to remove the stat?
I should add, when the new rad was fitted and I over heated, I had not gone anywhere near boost, i'd done about 3 miles, and hadnt gone over 2,500 rpm.
Ive read head gaskets can go, but only overheat on boost. I wasnt on boost at all, could a blown HG still cause me to over heat so low in the rev range?
Last edited by JulioJordio2; 17 May 2010 at 03:19 PM.
17 May 2010, 03:22 PM
#6
Before you start pulling things apart get the system pressure tested and get the sniff test done. If it turns out you have a leak you can put it right, if it turns out you have HGF and then deceide to sell there is no point in pulling stuff off, at least then any potential buyers can hear the car running and drive it a short distance.
17 May 2010, 03:28 PM
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True.... Thanks for the advice dude.
Can someone tell me what I need to remove my Stat? Ive done some searches, loads of posts, but none explaining what I need?
I gather its attached to my lower rad hose?
Can someone tell me what I need to remove my Stat? Ive done some searches, loads of posts, but none explaining what I need?
I gather its attached to my lower rad hose?
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17 May 2010, 07:23 PM
#8
I hope this helps you. I don't know where you are geographically as it does not say in your profile but we would charge you £600 to remove the engine, remove the cylinder heads, machine the cylinder heads to get them flat and also lift your compression ratio, new cylinder head gaskets, pair, rebuild and reinstall engine. All for £600.
Now if you want to remove your thermostat you cannot run the car without the thermostat body being in position. It is about a 20 minute job to get in to the thermostat which is on the battery side of the engine and if you get the car in the air you can see the pipe coming from the radiator to the thermostat housing which from memory is 2 10mm bolts.
It is unlikely to be the thermostat but it is easy to check. Just put the thermostat in a saucepan on the gas over or electric oven and observe. You could butcher the thermostat so it doesn't work so you havve a permanently open water circuit but that is not really a solution.
Now if you want to remove your thermostat you cannot run the car without the thermostat body being in position. It is about a 20 minute job to get in to the thermostat which is on the battery side of the engine and if you get the car in the air you can see the pipe coming from the radiator to the thermostat housing which from memory is 2 10mm bolts.
It is unlikely to be the thermostat but it is easy to check. Just put the thermostat in a saucepan on the gas over or electric oven and observe. You could butcher the thermostat so it doesn't work so you havve a permanently open water circuit but that is not really a solution.
19 May 2010, 09:26 AM
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Thanks for the advice Harvey, and that is a bloody cheap quote!
I am just north of Blackpool, and Ive just noticed your in Darlington. Why cant you be nearer lol.
Cars been sat for a week at my old dears, I've just got really fed up with it these past few weeks. I need to check that stat but being brutally honest, I'm 99.9% its HG
I am just north of Blackpool, and Ive just noticed your in Darlington. Why cant you be nearer lol.
Cars been sat for a week at my old dears, I've just got really fed up with it these past few weeks. I need to check that stat but being brutally honest, I'm 99.9% its HG
19 May 2010, 11:09 AM
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Sorry to hear your predicament, reminds me of when the old Scoobs gearbox blew up down Tesco's
If it is the headgasket and you decide to fix it (it's a very genuine quote from Harvey and he's on of the good guys on here), would you need to have the car remapped to suit the higher compression ratio from the head being machined.
Harvey, may I ask:
A mate (who's car is with you at the minute) had his engine let go. It was remapped anywho but the HG failed and it was machined slightly (warped?). Having discussed it with said mate he seems 90% that the failure was down to det from the higher compression ratio and no map tweak. I take it this would explain it?
If it is the headgasket and you decide to fix it (it's a very genuine quote from Harvey and he's on of the good guys on here), would you need to have the car remapped to suit the higher compression ratio from the head being machined.
Harvey, may I ask:
A mate (who's car is with you at the minute) had his engine let go. It was remapped anywho but the HG failed and it was machined slightly (warped?). Having discussed it with said mate he seems 90% that the failure was down to det from the higher compression ratio and no map tweak. I take it this would explain it?
19 May 2010, 01:26 PM
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I would also like some clarification from that aspect too Cob. I have no idea whether a re-map is needed, although when I discussed the rebuild with Scoobyteknix, no mention of a remap was made, but It also crossed my mind later on whether it would be required.
Wish I was closer to Harvey.... Looks like I am going for a rebuild if needed (which I think its safe to say it is) and I am paying above that for the repair...
Wish I was closer to Harvey.... Looks like I am going for a rebuild if needed (which I think its safe to say it is
) and I am paying above that for the repair...
19 May 2010, 01:53 PM
#12
You can offset the head/block skim by using a slightly thicker head gasket. Cometic multilayer gaskets are vey good, used extensively in motorsport and very popular with high power engine builders. They come in different thicknesses from OEM up to 1.6mm for the Subaru anyway.
If anything you're better off with a slightly thicker gasket that would ever so slightly lower the compression. That's a good thing because it does mean you can run a bit more boost if you like but more importantly it does completely negate any possibility of Det due to raised compression from head/block skimming.
No need for a remap if all the hardware on your engine stays the same.
If anything you're better off with a slightly thicker gasket that would ever so slightly lower the compression. That's a good thing because it does mean you can run a bit more boost if you like but more importantly it does completely negate any possibility of Det due to raised compression from head/block skimming.
No need for a remap if all the hardware on your engine stays the same.
Last edited by scoobiewrx555; 19 May 2010 at 01:55 PM.
19 May 2010, 02:41 PM
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[quote=scoobiewrx555;9406279]You can offset the head/block skim by using a slightly thicker head gasket. Cometic multilayer gaskets are vey good, used extensively in motorsport and very popular with high power engine builders. They come in different thicknesses from OEM up to 1.6mm for the Subaru anyway.
If anything you're better off with a slightly thicker gasket that would ever so slightly lower the compression. That's a good thing because it does mean you can run a bit more boost if you like but more importantly it does completely negate any possibility of Det due to raised compression from head/block skimming.
No need for a remap if all the hardware on your engine stays the same.[/quote]
Thanks mate, that's good to know.
It is a worry when you re-do the HG on an engine with over 50k (mine has 53k) and people are constantly warning you that if you rebuild, the bottom end may potentially follow soon after due to the increase in compression.
Is this true, or is it another of those Scoobynet doomsdayers myths?
If anything you're better off with a slightly thicker gasket that would ever so slightly lower the compression. That's a good thing because it does mean you can run a bit more boost if you like but more importantly it does completely negate any possibility of Det due to raised compression from head/block skimming.
No need for a remap if all the hardware on your engine stays the same.[/quote]
Thanks mate, that's good to know.
It is a worry when you re-do the HG on an engine with over 50k (mine has 53k) and people are constantly warning you that if you rebuild, the bottom end may potentially follow soon after due to the increase in compression.
Is this true, or is it another of those Scoobynet doomsdayers myths?
19 May 2010, 02:55 PM
#14
[quote=JulioJordio2;9406333]
This is why compared to normally aspirated cars forced induction engines need much lower compression to avoid det.
The amount that's skiimed will denote compression. If the head and block are just being lightly faced then it will probably make bugger all difference in the grand scheme of things, but if you're having a big skim because the heads are very warped or there is some damage to the heads/block then it will make a difference not just because of det but potentially taking too much off might end up with the valves or spark plugs hitting a piston. It has been known to happen.
IMHO if the heads ae that bad source a couple of alternative heads that just need facing off and that in the end will give the best result. Even then you could still use thicker gaskets to lower the compression from OEM to allow for more boost.
Thicker head gaskets are a good thing so that IMHO is the way to go.
Others may disagree
You can offset the head/block skim by using a slightly thicker head gasket. Cometic multilayer gaskets are vey good, used extensively in motorsport and very popular with high power engine builders. They come in different thicknesses from OEM up to 1.6mm for the Subaru anyway.
If anything you're better off with a slightly thicker gasket that would ever so slightly lower the compression. That's a good thing because it does mean you can run a bit more boost if you like but more importantly it does completely negate any possibility of Det due to raised compression from head/block skimming.
No need for a remap if all the hardware on your engine stays the same.[/quote]
Thanks mate, that's good to know.
It is a worry when you re-do the HG on an engine with over 50k (mine has 53k) and people are constantly warning you that if you rebuild, the bottom end may potentially follow soon after due to the increase in compression.
Is this true, or is it another of those Scoobynet doomsdayers myths?
If anything you're better off with a slightly thicker gasket that would ever so slightly lower the compression. That's a good thing because it does mean you can run a bit more boost if you like but more importantly it does completely negate any possibility of Det due to raised compression from head/block skimming.
No need for a remap if all the hardware on your engine stays the same.[/quote]
Thanks mate, that's good to know.
It is a worry when you re-do the HG on an engine with over 50k (mine has 53k) and people are constantly warning you that if you rebuild, the bottom end may potentially follow soon after due to the increase in compression.
Is this true, or is it another of those Scoobynet doomsdayers myths?
The amount that's skiimed will denote compression. If the head and block are just being lightly faced then it will probably make bugger all difference in the grand scheme of things, but if you're having a big skim because the heads are very warped or there is some damage to the heads/block then it will make a difference not just because of det but potentially taking too much off might end up with the valves or spark plugs hitting a piston. It has been known to happen.
IMHO if the heads ae that bad source a couple of alternative heads that just need facing off and that in the end will give the best result. Even then you could still use thicker gaskets to lower the compression from OEM to allow for more boost.
Thicker head gaskets are a good thing so that IMHO is the way to go.
Others may disagree
19 May 2010, 05:02 PM
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Unfortunately i'm not a member of either...
Thanks for the info Scoobiewrx, I havent cooked the engine, since it overheated slightly the car hasnt moved an inch.
I've just had a really harsh couple of months financially, and I'm just not sure if I can afford repair it. Hopefully I can, but I need to look at other options open to me.
If I cant afford to repair the car, I've considered selling the car as is. Do you think this is a good idea? There a fair few quid in parts on there at the moment, it'd be ideal for someone who has the knowledge or funds to sort the HG out. Or I could strip the goodies off, sell those seperately and sell the car as standard needing attention?
Its bloody horrible being in this position......
Thanks for the info Scoobiewrx, I havent cooked the engine, since it overheated slightly the car hasnt moved an inch.
I've just had a really harsh couple of months financially, and I'm just not sure if I can afford repair it. Hopefully I can, but I need to look at other options open to me.
If I cant afford to repair the car, I've considered selling the car as is. Do you think this is a good idea? There a fair few quid in parts on there at the moment, it'd be ideal for someone who has the knowledge or funds to sort the HG out. Or I could strip the goodies off, sell those seperately and sell the car as standard needing attention?
Its bloody horrible being in this position......
19 May 2010, 05:37 PM
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are you sure its not an airlock as you mentioned the heaters are blowing cold, were they set to hot when you bled the system, i've had a couple of people who thought the worst and 20 minutes spent bleeding the system properly have got the cars running spot on
19 May 2010, 05:41 PM
#18
If you do the job yourself you will have to take the engine out, remove the heads, take them to an engineering company to be machined, then new gaskets and put it all back together.
If you have a workshop manual, are mechanically very confident, have a good set of tools, and have an engine crane or can hire one, then your costs will be crane hire, machining and gaskets. Cheaper than £600 but do you think you could do it.
To be fair to Harvey, £600 all in for the peace of mind that it's going to get done properly from start to finish by a Subaru specialist is nothing short of an absolute bloody bargain. I would be biting his arm off at that and paying for the hire of a car trailer and the use of a mates car that has a tow bar on it to get the car to him. It's only going to do one trip as you'll be driving the car back when HArvey has worked his magic on it.
If there is nobody else nearby to do it i would be making the one trip, moving heaven and earth to find the dosh.
If you have a workshop manual, are mechanically very confident, have a good set of tools, and have an engine crane or can hire one, then your costs will be crane hire, machining and gaskets. Cheaper than £600 but do you think you could do it.
To be fair to Harvey, £600 all in for the peace of mind that it's going to get done properly from start to finish by a Subaru specialist is nothing short of an absolute bloody bargain. I would be biting his arm off at that and paying for the hire of a car trailer and the use of a mates car that has a tow bar on it to get the car to him. It's only going to do one trip as you'll be driving the car back when HArvey has worked his magic on it.
If there is nobody else nearby to do it i would be making the one trip, moving heaven and earth to find the dosh.
19 May 2010, 06:02 PM
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I'd love to be able to do it myself, but I have no idea!
I know the price quoted by Harvey is absolutely fantastic!
Good news is, I have some unexpected commission due at the month end, which will help massively.
Scoobyteknix have quoted 800 quid all in job done. Theyre 5 miles from me.
I am still praying that the stat is at fault and that is what's up.
Regarding the airlock; I dont think so. I have followed the burping routine religously, but its worth another try before I admit defeat.
The car was chucking out hot air till the temp gauge started to rise to 3/4, and then the vents were cold as I stopped.
The strange thing was, after the rad was fitted, the car ran fine for two days before overheating (even using full boost.) When It overheated after two days, I was literally pootling along from cold in the morning and I'd done 4-5 miles max, so no boost/high revs etc to cause the overheating which made me question whether it was HG?
I need to check the stat as stated, and perhaps try burping the coolant again.
Appreciate all the help offered fella's.
I'm sorry If i've gone on, rather stressed out with it all
I know the price quoted by Harvey is absolutely fantastic!
Good news is, I have some unexpected commission due at the month end, which will help massively.
Scoobyteknix have quoted 800 quid all in job done. Theyre 5 miles from me.
I am still praying that the stat is at fault and that is what's up.
Regarding the airlock; I dont think so. I have followed the burping routine religously, but its worth another try before I admit defeat.
The car was chucking out hot air till the temp gauge started to rise to 3/4, and then the vents were cold as I stopped.
The strange thing was, after the rad was fitted, the car ran fine for two days before overheating (even using full boost.) When It overheated after two days, I was literally pootling along from cold in the morning and I'd done 4-5 miles max, so no boost/high revs etc to cause the overheating which made me question whether it was HG?
I need to check the stat as stated, and perhaps try burping the coolant again.
Appreciate all the help offered fella's.
I'm sorry If i've gone on, rather stressed out with it all
19 May 2010, 10:18 PM
#20
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When my headgaskets went It would spit the coolant when giving it some stick, but was fine off boost, held its coolant and didn't overheat. I did hundreds of miles off boost before pulling the engine
20 May 2010, 01:05 AM
#21
Julio : Blackpool to Darlington is probably 90 miles.
Don't let anybody persuade you that by fitting thicker gaskets you will cure the problem. You have blown your cylinder head gasket and therefore there is every possibility your head(s) is/are warped and the long term solution is to get them flat again. Now you can remove minimal material to achieve this and effect the compression ratio to such an extent that a remap will not be essential but if you take off 20 thou on an STi 5 or 6 for instance you will up the comprerssion ratio from 8.0 to 8.3:1 and without a remap you will run in to det.
When building an engine properly with higher compression ratios I always measure the capacity of the combustion chamber and work out the compression ratio accurately.
When I was first involved in Subarus I was persuaded against my better judgement to go for a compression ratio of 7.45:1. OE was 8.0. That engine couldn't pull the skin off a custard and it was only a few weeks before I was running it at 8.3. That same engine is now about 8.8 and all that is required is that the engine is mapped properly.
Playing about with thicker gaskets is the thinking of the 1990s or even the 80s and thicker gaskets are not a long term cure to cylinder head issues.
THe price quoted above for removing your engine and replacing your cylinder head gaskets includes machining the heads. By how much will be determined by how badly warped they are and by your personal preference as to performance requirements but if they receive minimal skimming chances are you don't need a remap.
Personally I would take the opportunity to lift the compression ratio to something sensible and have a car that was that much more willing off boost.
Don't let anybody persuade you that by fitting thicker gaskets you will cure the problem. You have blown your cylinder head gasket and therefore there is every possibility your head(s) is/are warped and the long term solution is to get them flat again. Now you can remove minimal material to achieve this and effect the compression ratio to such an extent that a remap will not be essential but if you take off 20 thou on an STi 5 or 6 for instance you will up the comprerssion ratio from 8.0 to 8.3:1 and without a remap you will run in to det.
When building an engine properly with higher compression ratios I always measure the capacity of the combustion chamber and work out the compression ratio accurately.
When I was first involved in Subarus I was persuaded against my better judgement to go for a compression ratio of 7.45:1. OE was 8.0. That engine couldn't pull the skin off a custard and it was only a few weeks before I was running it at 8.3. That same engine is now about 8.8 and all that is required is that the engine is mapped properly.
Playing about with thicker gaskets is the thinking of the 1990s or even the 80s and thicker gaskets are not a long term cure to cylinder head issues.
THe price quoted above for removing your engine and replacing your cylinder head gaskets includes machining the heads. By how much will be determined by how badly warped they are and by your personal preference as to performance requirements but if they receive minimal skimming chances are you don't need a remap.
Personally I would take the opportunity to lift the compression ratio to something sensible and have a car that was that much more willing off boost.
20 May 2010, 01:10 AM
#22
A mate (who's car is with you at the minute) had his engine let go. It was remapped anywho but the HG failed and it was machined slightly (warped?). Having discussed it with said mate he seems 90% that the failure was down to det from the higher compression ratio and no map tweak. I take it this would explain it.?
Dependng on the model year the ECU will pull timing automatically but there is a limit to how much it can pull but common sense tells me that most people should be running Knock Links or similar so after a rebuild it would be obvious if the compression ratio was that much higher just from Knock Link activity and any sensible builder will tell the client whether he needs a remap or not.
___________
20 May 2010, 01:17 AM
#23
Just out of interest, something else for you to know.
I took a set of STi 3 heads and removed 35 thou and then rebuilt the engine with OE Subaru gaskets. I was confident there was plenty clearance piston to valves but just to be sure I put the built engine in the back of another car and went down to see Matt Clark on other matters and got him to put his Endoscope or whatever it is down the plug hole and I turned the engine. Matt's conclusion was that there was still bags of clearance so the engine was fitted and has probably done 30,000 miles since, mostly above 400 bhp on standard STi 3 pistons.
Obviously on ver 3 and 4 cars you need to take a big lump of metal off before the valves come anywhere near the pistons.
I took a set of STi 3 heads and removed 35 thou and then rebuilt the engine with OE Subaru gaskets. I was confident there was plenty clearance piston to valves but just to be sure I put the built engine in the back of another car and went down to see Matt Clark on other matters and got him to put his Endoscope or whatever it is down the plug hole and I turned the engine. Matt's conclusion was that there was still bags of clearance so the engine was fitted and has probably done 30,000 miles since, mostly above 400 bhp on standard STi 3 pistons.
Obviously on ver 3 and 4 cars you need to take a big lump of metal off before the valves come anywhere near the pistons.
20 May 2010, 02:47 AM
#24
Harvey, i'm the only one that's mentioned thicker head gaskets so i presume your comments are really directed at my post.
I never said thicker head gaskets are his cure, if his heads have warped they'll need machining, period!! If you'd like to point out where i said head gaskets are the cure it would be appreciated.
As for mentality from the 80's/90's, you'll also be applying that to respected Subaru engine builders that also use thicker than OE gaskets on builds that have had extensive machining, will see a lot of boost, and will need clamping down a bit more than OE spec. Or perhaps they're all wrong and thicker gaskets are a waste of time.
I've extolled the virtues of using an experience Subaru engine builder that was worth driving the extra miles for. Fortunately for the OP he's found a reputable garage just down the road.
Yep, times are tough and business is a bit thin on the ground!!
I never said thicker head gaskets are his cure, if his heads have warped they'll need machining, period!! If you'd like to point out where i said head gaskets are the cure it would be appreciated.
As for mentality from the 80's/90's, you'll also be applying that to respected Subaru engine builders that also use thicker than OE gaskets on builds that have had extensive machining, will see a lot of boost, and will need clamping down a bit more than OE spec. Or perhaps they're all wrong and thicker gaskets are a waste of time.
I've extolled the virtues of using an experience Subaru engine builder that was worth driving the extra miles for. Fortunately for the OP he's found a reputable garage just down the road.
Yep, times are tough and business is a bit thin on the ground!!
20 May 2010, 09:00 AM
#25
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Julio : Blackpool to Darlington is probably 90 miles.
Don't let anybody persuade you that by fitting thicker gaskets you will cure the problem. You have blown your cylinder head gasket and therefore there is every possibility your head(s) is/are warped and the long term solution is to get them flat again. Now you can remove minimal material to achieve this and effect the compression ratio to such an extent that a remap will not be essential but if you take off 20 thou on an STi 5 or 6 for instance you will up the comprerssion ratio from 8.0 to 8.3:1 and without a remap you will run in to det.
When building an engine properly with higher compression ratios I always measure the capacity of the combustion chamber and work out the compression ratio accurately.
When I was first involved in Subarus I was persuaded against my better judgement to go for a compression ratio of 7.45:1. OE was 8.0. That engine couldn't pull the skin off a custard and it was only a few weeks before I was running it at 8.3. That same engine is now about 8.8 and all that is required is that the engine is mapped properly.
Playing about with thicker gaskets is the thinking of the 1990s or even the 80s and thicker gaskets are not a long term cure to cylinder head issues.
THe price quoted above for removing your engine and replacing your cylinder head gaskets includes machining the heads. By how much will be determined by how badly warped they are and by your personal preference as to performance requirements but if they receive minimal skimming chances are you don't need a remap.
Personally I would take the opportunity to lift the compression ratio to something sensible and have a car that was that much more willing off boost.
Don't let anybody persuade you that by fitting thicker gaskets you will cure the problem. You have blown your cylinder head gasket and therefore there is every possibility your head(s) is/are warped and the long term solution is to get them flat again. Now you can remove minimal material to achieve this and effect the compression ratio to such an extent that a remap will not be essential but if you take off 20 thou on an STi 5 or 6 for instance you will up the comprerssion ratio from 8.0 to 8.3:1 and without a remap you will run in to det.
When building an engine properly with higher compression ratios I always measure the capacity of the combustion chamber and work out the compression ratio accurately.
When I was first involved in Subarus I was persuaded against my better judgement to go for a compression ratio of 7.45:1. OE was 8.0. That engine couldn't pull the skin off a custard and it was only a few weeks before I was running it at 8.3. That same engine is now about 8.8 and all that is required is that the engine is mapped properly.
Playing about with thicker gaskets is the thinking of the 1990s or even the 80s and thicker gaskets are not a long term cure to cylinder head issues.
THe price quoted above for removing your engine and replacing your cylinder head gaskets includes machining the heads. By how much will be determined by how badly warped they are and by your personal preference as to performance requirements but if they receive minimal skimming chances are you don't need a remap.
Personally I would take the opportunity to lift the compression ratio to something sensible and have a car that was that much more willing off boost.
Not sure who your mate might be as we have two cars here that could fit that description. If the CR is raised by more than a small amount ie. going from 8:1 to beyond 8.1:1 then you are clearly going to have to remove ignition and the fuel map will need trimming at the same time.
Dependng on the model year the ECU will pull timing automatically but there is a limit to how much it can pull but common sense tells me that most people should be running Knock Links or similar so after a rebuild it would be obvious if the compression ratio was that much higher just from Knock Link activity and any sensible builder will tell the client whether he needs a remap or not.
___________
Dependng on the model year the ECU will pull timing automatically but there is a limit to how much it can pull but common sense tells me that most people should be running Knock Links or similar so after a rebuild it would be obvious if the compression ratio was that much higher just from Knock Link activity and any sensible builder will tell the client whether he needs a remap or not.
___________
20 May 2010, 09:25 AM
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Cheers for that Harvey. I thought Darlington was further than that...
Well, last night, I re burped the system, both hoses were getting hot, and fans were kicking in and out. It seemed like some air was trapped after burping for a while, so I then switched off, and let cool down. (The water pump was working fine, and I'm presuming both hoses getting hot means the stat is too?)
Went for a trip around the block to see if this had cured things, but no, within a mile (off boost) the temp gauge started creeping up, so I again switched off, and let cool down and left it where it is (Mother goose's)
I'm going to get a tow to Scoobyteknix, and let them do the work.
I'd just like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, all comments have been appreciated I just have to resign myself to the fact that its definately HG failure, and I need to spend some money
I do have to say, after not driving the car for a week (and using a P reg Rover 416i for work) the thing felt great. So composed and stiff (oooooeeerrrr lol)
Made me smile, and now i'm over the "**** its gone pop it's going to cost £££'s" I just cant wait to get it back in shape so I can enjoy it again
Well, last night, I re burped the system, both hoses were getting hot, and fans were kicking in and out. It seemed like some air was trapped after burping for a while, so I then switched off, and let cool down. (The water pump was working fine, and I'm presuming both hoses getting hot means the stat is too?)
Went for a trip around the block to see if this had cured things, but no, within a mile (off boost) the temp gauge started creeping up, so I again switched off, and let cool down and left it where it is (Mother goose's)
I'm going to get a tow to Scoobyteknix, and let them do the work.
I'd just like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, all comments have been appreciated
I just have to resign myself to the fact that its definately HG failure, and I need to spend some money I do have to say, after not driving the car for a week (and using a P reg Rover 416i for work) the thing felt great. So composed and stiff (oooooeeerrrr lol)
Made me smile, and now i'm over the "**** its gone pop it's going to cost £££'s" I just cant wait to get it back in shape so I can enjoy it again
21 May 2010, 11:33 AM
#27
Scoobiewrx555
You are being rather prickly mate, are you not. At no time did I say you suggested head gaskets only. Unfortunately it is a cheapskate trick perpetuated by some "experts" and I was simply cautioning the OP.
Indeed at an early stage what you said was exactly in line with my thinking.
Yes that comment was directed at you. The purpose of thicker gaskets as far as I am concerned is to give a number of options when taking into account different bore sizes, 2 litre 2.1, 2.2, 2.35, 2.38 and 2.5 along with a mix of different heads, old hydraulic, STi3 and 4 or STi5 and 6 and New Age heads, all 2 litre along with newqer 2.5 heads. Then ther is how much has been skimmed off the heads AND block. So that explains the need for thicker gaskets to give a range of options to get the compression ratio back to close to where you want it and not for the purpose of lowering C.R.
You do not say who the "respected" engine builders might be. I have no idea but I would be very surprised if any particularly knowledgable engine builder still thought it was necessary to build low compression engines so they could run high boost. Like I said : "that is the thinking of the 90s or even the 80s"
Thicker gaskets are not a waste of time and I did not say that within context. I have taken the trouble to explain to you just how useful a range of gasket thicknesses actually are. Reducing the compression ratio of an engine below O/E to allow for more boost certainly is not the way to go in my considerable and successful experience.
I started at 8.3 them 8.5 then 8.6. Some engines are 8.9, my own most recent personal engine is 9.5 and I think the Gobstopper runs 9.8 or 9.9. Like I said things have moved on from the thinking of the 80s and early 90s.
Thanks for extolling my virtues and I have no wish to fall out with you and having explained in far greater detail the need for various gasket thicknesses etc I hope you can see there is far far more to this than you may have first thought.
I guess your last sentance was sarcasm. I have broad shoulders, no matter. Business is not and has not been thin on the ground for us throughout this apparent recesssion, we are usually working 10 days ahead and our own personal projects are way way behind because there are not enough hours in the day.
I hope this clears everything up but feel free to grt in touch if you wish
Regards,
Harvey 07860 302020.
Harvey, i'm the only one that's mentioned thicker head gaskets so i presume your comments are really directed at my post.
I never said thicker head gaskets are his cure, if his heads have warped they'll need machining, period!! If you'd like to point out where i said head gaskets are the cure it would be appreciated.
As for mentality from the 80's/90's, you'll also be applying that to respected Subaru engine builders that also use thicker than OE gaskets on builds that have had extensive machining, will see a lot of boost, and will need clamping down a bit more than OE spec. Or perhaps they're all wrong and thicker gaskets are a waste of time.
I've extolled the virtues of using an experience Subaru engine builder that was worth driving the extra miles for. Fortunately for the OP he's found a reputable garage just down the road.
Yep, times are tough and business is a bit thin on the ground!!
I never said thicker head gaskets are his cure, if his heads have warped they'll need machining, period!! If you'd like to point out where i said head gaskets are the cure it would be appreciated.
As for mentality from the 80's/90's, you'll also be applying that to respected Subaru engine builders that also use thicker than OE gaskets on builds that have had extensive machining, will see a lot of boost, and will need clamping down a bit more than OE spec. Or perhaps they're all wrong and thicker gaskets are a waste of time.
I've extolled the virtues of using an experience Subaru engine builder that was worth driving the extra miles for. Fortunately for the OP he's found a reputable garage just down the road.
Yep, times are tough and business is a bit thin on the ground!!
Indeed at an early stage what you said was exactly in line with my thinking.
If you do the job yourself you will have to take the engine out, remove the heads, take them to an engineering company to be machined, then new gaskets and put it all back together.
As for mentality from the 80's/90's, you'll also be applying that to respected Subaru engine builders that also use thicker than OE gaskets on builds that have had extensive machining, will see a lot of boost, and will need clamping down a bit more than OE spec. Or perhaps they're all wrong and thicker gaskets are a waste of time.
You do not say who the "respected" engine builders might be. I have no idea but I would be very surprised if any particularly knowledgable engine builder still thought it was necessary to build low compression engines so they could run high boost. Like I said : "that is the thinking of the 90s or even the 80s"
Or perhaps they're all wrong and thicker gaskets are a waste of time
I started at 8.3 them 8.5 then 8.6. Some engines are 8.9, my own most recent personal engine is 9.5 and I think the Gobstopper runs 9.8 or 9.9. Like I said things have moved on from the thinking of the 80s and early 90s.
I've extolled the virtues of using an experience Subaru engine builder that was worth driving the extra miles for. Fortunately for the OP he's found a reputable garage just down the road.
Yep, times are tough and business is a bit thin on the ground!!
Yep, times are tough and business is a bit thin on the ground!!
I guess your last sentance was sarcasm. I have broad shoulders, no matter. Business is not and has not been thin on the ground for us throughout this apparent recesssion, we are usually working 10 days ahead and our own personal projects are way way behind because there are not enough hours in the day.
I hope this clears everything up but feel free to grt in touch if you wish
Regards,
Harvey 07860 302020.
21 May 2010, 11:58 AM
#29
I was talking with regards Jeff and his red classic which you have had for a while mate. He and I have talked at length and he tries to stay calm but misses it really
When we skim a head I take the attitude we may as well make it worthwhile and subject to speaking to the owner 20 thou is a typical skim and sometimes 25 thou. Obviously at that point a remap is esential.
As Jeff's car is equipped with a Knock Link in addition to the O/E sensor then if higher compression was an issue I would have thought that would have shown up immediately al K.L. activity and appropriate action taken, higher octane, NF or a remap. Like I said I have no idea who did the work or how much was removed from the heads.
The engine let go on a French Auto Route on a particularly warm day with a top mount intercooler and running high speed. Charge temperatures would be very high and the mixture may have weakened off substantially, I have no means of knowing. There could even have been other issues relating to the ECU or earthing and I guess nobody will ever know.
Anyway the car is finished, awaiting collection with a 2.5 forged engine, with steel rods, showing great promise, STi 6 speed so cruising need never be frantic and obviously an FMIC so charge temperatures will be under control and Jeff is also fitting an Air Charge Temperature guge to compliment the fuel pressure, oil pressure, oil and water temperature so Jeff will certainly have a good idea as to what is going on.
Julio : Good luck with the headgaskets. Make sure the heads are flat. Cheers.
Thanks for that Jeff.
Last edited by harvey; 21 May 2010 at 11:59 AM.