jjk

folks
anyone got the number from the featured article?
the one i have is 01858 545946.
it goes to an answer phone.
is this correct or anyone know of any alternative numbers?

many thanks

jas

jon hill

yep - its just him, so when he's out you have to leave a message

Richard Askew

thats the one : £1200 for the course mind

jjk

just found the web site.
1200 is ouch.
anyone been on it or know anyone who has??

cheers

jon hill

i did the initial session, but chose not to go further

there is no doubt whatsoever about his driving ability, but i didnt get on with his teaching style. I found (and this is just my opinion, etc) that he took offence to being questioned as to why he teaches a technique - he seemed to expect pupils to just accept he was right. An example is double declutching when changing gear - I dont understand why he insisits on it, he wouldnt give a satisfactory answer, and the answers others have given dont add up (e.g. it saves wear on the syncromesh or you have to use it in a crash box).

Soon after that I spent maybe 30 minutes with Colin somebody (second name escapes me) who works with Don Palmer - his shtick was to question what and why you're doing each thing, and concentrate on one at a time. For me, thats a far better way to learn, and I walked away with something to build on.

Try the intial thingy though, be interested to hear what you think

Anthony King

I've done the intro 1/2 days and the 2 day courses. The half day introductory course gives you an idea of what the training is all about. The technique is pretty much based on the police training programme hence you get a rigid application of set technique. Essentially John strips out what he feels are your bad habits and rebuilds your technique from bottom up. His reputation is also well deserved so if you do have any bad habits (e.g. not double declutching or crossing arms on the steering wheel) be prepared for a real mauling!

The two day courses that follow include further advanced road skills work including some night driving, high speed circuit, handling circuit, skid pan and an alpine course. If at any point you don't feel that what he is teaching you holds up he is quite prepared to get behind the wheel and demonstrate!

It's a very tiring course and not everyone is comfortable with the teaching style hence few go beyond the 1/2 day intro level. Once through the 2 1/2 days there are also further levels of training that you can take.

mike wilkinson

Can anyone describe what is meant by double de-clutching?

Mcbrun555

When braking and changing down a gear( say 3rd to 2nd) to slow down for a corner.

1, Clutch in, out of third into neurtal.
2, Clutch out, blip the throtle to match engine revs to the gear you are changing down to.
3, Clutch in and engage 2nd.

Puts a lot less stress on the drive train and makes the car more stable when slowing down.

[Edited by Mcbrun555 - 3/15/2002 7:58:38 PM]

[Edited by Mcbrun555 - 3/15/2002 7:59:24 PM]

mike wilkinson

Sounds like a time consuming pain to me.
Thanks anyway for explaining!

Andy Winskill

I've just done Don Palmers Creative Car Control course. I couldn't recommend this highly enough. I learnt an enormous amount about car stability, tyre wear and under/over steer. I also learnt that braking mid corner isn't a good idea (unless you know what she's going to do and you want her to do it )

Caronte

Doesn't he matches the double de-cluthing with heel and toe technique?

DaveW

Caronte,

I tried that and tied my feet in a knot

Seriously though I guess after a lot of practice that all these techniques make you a much smoother driver. Its just with a loud car whenever you are practicing, everyone can hear the mistakes a mile off

DaveW.

Caronte

yes it comes definitely with practice. I remember when I decided to learn i risked several (not to say A LOT) of times to end up helping the car that had stopped to the stop to cross the street...

Caronte

Anthony King

Double declutching ensures that the car remains balanced as you drop down a gear. It doesn't matter how carefully and slowly you ease the clutch out when changing there is still a shift in weight towards the front as you release the clutch. On a slippery road this can be enough to reduce grip at the back, possibly evan resulting in a spin.

By blipping the throttle as the gearshift passes through neutral and you momentarily releasing the clutch you sync engine and transmission speeds. On a well executed shift the only indication that you have changed gear will be a change in engine noise. More importantly the car is not unsettled.

At first it seems incredibly slow and difficult. If you persevere with it gradually it sinks in and becomes second nature. You do, however need to adapt a few other bits of your technique to make the most of it (e.g. not overlapping braking and gear changing except when heel and towing).

Bit of interesting history here in that when heel and toe originated the clutch pedal was on the left with the throttle in the middle and the brake to the right. This kinda explains why the term doesn't make much sense today. The foot does not twist round you just put the right edge of the foot on the throttle and the left edge on the brake.

With most modern pedal set-ups it is bloody difficult unless you have wide feet! If you're keen to use this it is probably worth investing in some wider plates for the pedals to bring them closer together.



[Edited by Anthony King - 3/15/2002 11:02:18 PM]

tezza

Mcbrun555
Not quiet the way I was shown for double de-clutching.
Clutch in 3rd to 2nd while bring the revs up to match engine speed, not blipping it as revs may not match right, then letting clutch out. Not easy at first trying to brake bring revs up and changing gear at same time, especially as someone already mentioned about peddle spacings. Was told one problem with this is if too much revs then you get launched into the corner!
But I guess every instructor will have their way of doing things so we are probably both right.
P.S. not trying to start a row, just saying how I was shown.
Terry

Andy Winskill

Yep Don recommends heel and toe, which he makes look really easy in the Impreza. The technique he coaches is actually quite simple but takes a fair bit of practice to make smooth. I used to match rev's on letting the clutch out, rather than blipping the throttle. Heel-toe makes the gear change a lot quicker, though not as smooth. Don doesn't teach, he coaches. Seemed very strange at first but by the end of the day I was amazed how much I'd learnt, and how much the Impreza could actually be controlled. Loved it. Loved it even more sideways

Whichever technique, you need to match the engine revs to keep the car balanced

Great~taste~Bloke

very good and about time too!

Caronte

yep

Anthony, I think that one precisions shoud be made to your interesting comment. Double de-cluthcing was useful in first place because old gearchanges didn't have the syncro. Therefore this was the only way you could scale down gears (apart from stopping..). With the advent of the synchro this procedure has been nearly forgotten ( especially on races) because the faster change the less stage time (supposing we're speaking of a rally). Finally the heel and toe is used not to loose time under braking for changing gears and to preserve the trasnmission. Composure of the car is a relative problem in terms of heavy breaking. However for "normal" use it can be useful to guarantee smoothness of driving.

Cheers

C.

Luke

Only going down a gear??? Not going up as well???

There will be loads of us out today having "minor moments"!!!

dela

Andy, if you don't mind me asking, how much was the Don Palmer course? And what was the duration?

cheers,
dela

Jza

I thought the course sounded great - but there is NO WAY im going to start this double clutch garbage however good it is!!!! Sounds a bit antiquated for modern machinery. Now if he showed me how to heel and toe - that would be great

Why should you be forced into doing something so unatural??? Its your car!! If you want to crunch its gears - its your bloody right to do so!!

Can't see the point of £1200 to learn someone elses technique that i'll never take on board. I want to know about how to drive MY car - to understand it and it alone. Not how to drive so i wont blow up someones ferrari!!!!!!!

Don Palmer for me this year (and i could do 4 courses for the price of this one!!!)

Jza

Jza

Andy Winskill

IIRC Don's course is £395. You'll have about 2 hours of driving but the course lasts nearly all day (depending on numbers).

The 2 hours of driving is enough as most of it is sideways and on the limit