WRX vs STI
06 February 2001, 12:51 AM
#1
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I can't understand why there's so much clamour for STI's over the standard 280bhp WRX? Can anyone explain?
It strikes me that you pay and suffer much more for very little extra. Servicing costs are higher as you have to import a lot of the parts. Urban and motorway road-use must be pretty miserable with rock-like suspension and extra low gearing. Okay, on a track day there's a small advantage, but I bet this can only be truly exploited by a professional driver, so accomplished is the standard car.
And away from the track, does anyone really corner faster in an STI than a standard WRX?
You tell me.
It strikes me that you pay and suffer much more for very little extra. Servicing costs are higher as you have to import a lot of the parts. Urban and motorway road-use must be pretty miserable with rock-like suspension and extra low gearing. Okay, on a track day there's a small advantage, but I bet this can only be truly exploited by a professional driver, so accomplished is the standard car.
And away from the track, does anyone really corner faster in an STI than a standard WRX?
You tell me.
06 February 2001, 01:22 PM
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Tim,
What's a standard WRX - I was under the assumption that a WRX had 240 or 260 HP and that they too were imports so suffering the same parts problems.
Servicing costs no more than my last UK car - in fact is probably cheaper as I don't have to pay for crap main dealer work.
Suspension - my STI 5 is at about as comfortable as my MY98 was but with better damping and control over bumps.
Extra low gearing - final drive on my car is lower than my UK car was but it will still hit 165 on the clock with no modifications, and is only doing just over 3800 rpm at 80 mph so is still quite comfy. At a track the low gearing would mean that you'd hardly ever get out of 4th or 5th, but the purpose of this car is to go as fast as possible on tight roads where speeds do not go much above 100 mph, and where the aim is to drive out of the corner with as much acceleration as possible. At this type of driving it is a unbelievably good, only limited by the poor original brakes and IMO, at VERY high speeds by the fact that the damping control seems to go off.
Cornering - nothing to choose I wouldn't imagine.
Chris.
Edited to correct rpm.
[This message has been edited by cwal1 (edited 06 February 2001).]
What's a standard WRX - I was under the assumption that a WRX had 240 or 260 HP and that they too were imports so suffering the same parts problems.
Servicing costs no more than my last UK car - in fact is probably cheaper as I don't have to pay for crap main dealer work.
Suspension - my STI 5 is at about as comfortable as my MY98 was but with better damping and control over bumps.
Extra low gearing - final drive on my car is lower than my UK car was but it will still hit 165 on the clock with no modifications, and is only doing just over 3800 rpm at 80 mph so is still quite comfy. At a track the low gearing would mean that you'd hardly ever get out of 4th or 5th, but the purpose of this car is to go as fast as possible on tight roads where speeds do not go much above 100 mph, and where the aim is to drive out of the corner with as much acceleration as possible. At this type of driving it is a unbelievably good, only limited by the poor original brakes and IMO, at VERY high speeds by the fact that the damping control seems to go off.
Cornering - nothing to choose I wouldn't imagine.
Chris.
Edited to correct rpm.
[This message has been edited by cwal1 (edited 06 February 2001).]
06 February 2001, 01:24 PM
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The standard WRX doesn't put out 280bhp if you are referring to the MY2001 UK spec. WRX.
If you are talking about the previous import WRX then there goes the importing of spares argument. Servicing costs are not generally higher, in fact they can be lower because the Subaru UK franchises won't touch them so you have to go to someone outside of the network and probably won't get stung with main dealer expenses.
Suspension is probably no harder than a UK spec which has been modified with Leda/Prodrive/etc. As for gearing it is probably better suited to UK roads than the UK spec. Remember the speed limit is 70mph in this country....
So the question was why get an STi over a WRX. Why get a WRX over a Sport (or whatever its now called)? Why get a Sport over the GL?
etc.
And no I do not have an STi, I have a UK spec. car.
Steve
If you are talking about the previous import WRX then there goes the importing of spares argument. Servicing costs are not generally higher, in fact they can be lower because the Subaru UK franchises won't touch them so you have to go to someone outside of the network and probably won't get stung with main dealer expenses.
Suspension is probably no harder than a UK spec which has been modified with Leda/Prodrive/etc. As for gearing it is probably better suited to UK roads than the UK spec. Remember the speed limit is 70mph in this country....
So the question was why get an STi over a WRX. Why get a WRX over a Sport (or whatever its now called)? Why get a Sport over the GL?
etc.
And no I do not have an STi, I have a UK spec. car.
Steve
06 February 2001, 01:29 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by cwal1:
<B>... and is only doing about 7800 rpm at 80 mph... [/quote]
Surely not?
Rich
<B>... and is only doing about 7800 rpm at 80 mph... [/quote]
Surely not?
Rich
06 February 2001, 01:58 PM
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An STi is just another version of the Impreza. It's more of a rally version than the standard WRX.
276bhp is standard for STi's where as the 276 you quoted is for 97 models onwards.
Your not one of these guys that see's 280bhp and assumes that all models ever produced had that power output??
STi's are far superior cars in a performance sense.
Why compare? Chalk and Cheese.
276bhp is standard for STi's where as the 276 you quoted is for 97 models onwards.
Your not one of these guys that see's 280bhp and assumes that all models ever produced had that power output??
STi's are far superior cars in a performance sense.
Why compare? Chalk and Cheese.
06 February 2001, 02:07 PM
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I am referring to the standard Impreza Turbo car as supplied in Japan (pre-facelift). It is not modified by STi but by MY99 was producing 280bhp+ so definitely worth it over the UK car. Unless I'm mis-informed, and I agree, this forms a significant part of my argument, many of the consumable parts are shared with the UK car (exhaust / suspension), where the STI's are not, making it cheaper to repair or service.
It's interesting that you say the suspension isn't much harder, I thought it was...
It's interesting that you say the suspension isn't much harder, I thought it was...
06 February 2001, 02:40 PM
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RichS,
Well spotted - I'd be a bit pi55ed off if it was doing 7800 rpm at 80 mph. Meant to say that it is doing just over 3800 rpm at 80 mph.
Edited original post to correct
Chris.
Well spotted - I'd be a bit pi55ed off if it was doing 7800 rpm at 80 mph. Meant to say that it is doing just over 3800 rpm at 80 mph.
Edited original post to correct
Chris.
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06 February 2001, 02:54 PM
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Hi all,
I've got a standard MY98 WRX so thought I'd join in with a nice little bullet point system:
Engine stuff - A standard MY 98 WRX has a quoted power output of 280 ps (276 bhp) on 100 RON Japanese fuel. That's the same as the equivalent STI (verison 4). The difference is that the STI has 260 lbft torque compared to 240 lbft for mine. Not exactly chalk and cheese in the engine department then and quite close actually.
Gearing - The standard MY98 WRX has the same gearing as the 4 door STI IV (and V and VI I guess), so no advantage for the STI there.
Suspension - The suspension may be a bit more compliant on a standard WRX than the STI, which might make it a bit better in the wet or on our bumpy roads.
Brakes - The later STI's have better brakes with 4 pots instead of 2 (standard WRX's got four pots in 99 though) so no advantage there now either.
Others - I know there's the better standard exhaust, but the scoobysport, magnex etc. ones are probably better than the STI's anyway, so that's easily fixed.
Other difference are mainly fairly cosmetic - bigger spoiler, gold wheels, strut brace etc, but the WRX hit's back with cheaper insurance, less nickability and over a thousand pounds saving over buying an STI. You could probably use that to make it a better car all round, especially when the differences aren't that great to start off with..... Flame suit on.
[This message has been edited by scoobysnacks (edited 06 February 2001).]
I've got a standard MY98 WRX so thought I'd join in with a nice little bullet point system:
Engine stuff - A standard MY 98 WRX has a quoted power output of 280 ps (276 bhp) on 100 RON Japanese fuel. That's the same as the equivalent STI (verison 4). The difference is that the STI has 260 lbft torque compared to 240 lbft for mine. Not exactly chalk and cheese in the engine department then and quite close actually.
Gearing - The standard MY98 WRX has the same gearing as the 4 door STI IV (and V and VI I guess), so no advantage for the STI there.
Suspension - The suspension may be a bit more compliant on a standard WRX than the STI, which might make it a bit better in the wet or on our bumpy roads.
Brakes - The later STI's have better brakes with 4 pots instead of 2 (standard WRX's got four pots in 99 though) so no advantage there now either.
Others - I know there's the better standard exhaust, but the scoobysport, magnex etc. ones are probably better than the STI's anyway, so that's easily fixed.
Other difference are mainly fairly cosmetic - bigger spoiler, gold wheels, strut brace etc, but the WRX hit's back with cheaper insurance, less nickability and over a thousand pounds saving over buying an STI. You could probably use that to make it a better car all round, especially when the differences aren't that great to start off with..... Flame suit on.
[This message has been edited by scoobysnacks (edited 06 February 2001).]
06 February 2001, 03:10 PM
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A point of clarification. Not all STi's are that low geared.
From what I understand, Type R STi's (2 doors) and RA's (4 door lightweight) have very short gearing.
My Sti III is doing (5th gear) 4000rpm at about 90mph (track tested) which is identical to my girlfriends Hyundai Coupe, and hence it isnt hard on your ears for motorway work.
dela
From what I understand, Type R STi's (2 doors) and RA's (4 door lightweight) have very short gearing.
My Sti III is doing (5th gear) 4000rpm at about 90mph (track tested) which is identical to my girlfriends Hyundai Coupe, and hence it isnt hard on your ears for motorway work.
dela
06 February 2001, 03:13 PM
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No major diffierences but,
different pistons, ecu, turbo and valve gear.
Gearing IS lower
alloy suspension components
strut braces
different IC pipework
alloy bonnet
cosmetics like nicer interior, different spoilers etc etc.
They're about the same to insure and service.
different pistons, ecu, turbo and valve gear.
Gearing IS lower
alloy suspension components
strut braces
different IC pipework
alloy bonnet
cosmetics like nicer interior, different spoilers etc etc.
They're about the same to insure and service.
06 February 2001, 04:57 PM
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I thought the gearing was lower until I saw a clear photo (in revs or something) of an STI V speedo and rev counter at about 150 mph. The revs and speed shown would be about the same on my standard MY98 WRX. Maybe someone can clarify this. On my car the revs are at 3600 at 80 mph (which is very acurate after recent recalibration). Anyone here with a four door STI IV, V or VI for comparison?
My bonnet and boot are alluminium as well. Maybe suspension bits are also, but not sure.
My bonnet and boot are alluminium as well. Maybe suspension bits are also, but not sure.
06 February 2001, 06:35 PM
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dela - Correct. I have an STi5 Type R Limited edition. It does run a short shift gear box. 90mph @ about 4400rpm I think. 
Will check next time I go for a spin.
CraigH - Yep. Pretty good list. Not sure if the WRX runs the stronger pistons and head etc like the STi. It might do !
No difference in WRX to STi insurance wise. (looked at that !)
Sonic
Will check next time I go for a spin.
CraigH - Yep. Pretty good list. Not sure if the WRX runs the stronger pistons and head etc like the STi. It might do !
No difference in WRX to STi insurance wise. (looked at that !)
Sonic
06 February 2001, 06:59 PM
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The STi engine is also blueprinted and balanced which allows it to rev to 8200rpm (7200 for WRX?).
Do WRXs have quick shift and climate control as standard?
Oh and STi's have a nice pink badge.....
Neil.
Do WRXs have quick shift and climate control as standard?
Oh and STi's have a nice pink badge.....
Neil.
06 February 2001, 07:45 PM
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I have a white 4 door STi IV.
Reason for buying was:
No different to insure.
Preferred STi styling to a standard WRX
(more of a rally feel to the STi)
I drove a WRX & STi & did not feel much difference in ride.
Servicing is cheaper than a main dealer although main dealer was not happy to service my import (so money goes elsewhere).
Blue printed engine, quick shift & some parts offer greater stress levels (eg. rev to 8200) as standard so I dont have to muck about much with the car.
Parts are no problem as there are many outlets that can source parts within days if not already in stock.
Not sure about the pink badge though.
Reason for buying was:
No different to insure.
Preferred STi styling to a standard WRX
(more of a rally feel to the STi)
I drove a WRX & STi & did not feel much difference in ride.
Servicing is cheaper than a main dealer although main dealer was not happy to service my import (so money goes elsewhere).
Blue printed engine, quick shift & some parts offer greater stress levels (eg. rev to 8200) as standard so I dont have to muck about much with the car.
Parts are no problem as there are many outlets that can source parts within days if not already in stock.
Not sure about the pink badge though.
06 February 2001, 08:25 PM
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Are we saying that every STI engine is blueprinted? To me a blueprinted engine is hand built using a selection of parts (bearing shells, con-rods, ground crank etc) which a matched to each other for the closest possible tolerances.
How can the Sti do this for every STI engine that they build??? This would be a very costly process. I had this done for a bike engine by a bloke called Tony Scott – it gave another 16 bhp and cost about £1500.
The STI is many things but I dont think it could be blueprinted in the true sense of the word.
Yee (ready to be proved wrong
)
How can the Sti do this for every STI engine that they build??? This would be a very costly process. I had this done for a bike engine by a bloke called Tony Scott – it gave another 16 bhp and cost about £1500.
The STI is many things but I dont think it could be blueprinted in the true sense of the word.
Yee (ready to be proved wrong
)
06 February 2001, 08:37 PM
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I mentioned blue printed engine as it is mentioned on the SIDC.
Qoute from SIDC:
Specifications for the STi models can include blueprinted engines, with different pistons and crankshaft, closed deck blocks, uprated close ratio gearbox, uprated suspension (i.e. hard!) and brakes, as well as nice toys such as water spray cooling for the intercooler, and driver adjustable differentials. STi engines rev to a 8250 rpm red line whilst the normal Japanese spec WRX's red line at 7500 rpm. Typically, the equipment specification of the Japanese WRX models are higher than that of the standard export models.
Maybe SIDC have got it wrong ?
Qoute from SIDC:
Specifications for the STi models can include blueprinted engines, with different pistons and crankshaft, closed deck blocks, uprated close ratio gearbox, uprated suspension (i.e. hard!) and brakes, as well as nice toys such as water spray cooling for the intercooler, and driver adjustable differentials. STi engines rev to a 8250 rpm red line whilst the normal Japanese spec WRX's red line at 7500 rpm. Typically, the equipment specification of the Japanese WRX models are higher than that of the standard export models.
Maybe SIDC have got it wrong ?
06 February 2001, 09:27 PM
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The gearing on an STI 4 door is the longer than the Type R or RA. I believe the WRX gearing is the same as the STI 4 door. This is slightly shorter than the UK spec cars.
Is the STI worth it. When I was looking and bought my STI V the premium was approx £4k
I did get an engine that had a bit more power - however on dyno days Ive seen a number of std WRX's outperform STI's of the same year.
The seats are alcantara on the STI, the engine looks better with the red bits !, and the bodykit had the compulsory large rear wing.
I'd always go for the STI of money was no object.
Jonathan
Is the STI worth it. When I was looking and bought my STI V the premium was approx £4k
I did get an engine that had a bit more power - however on dyno days Ive seen a number of std WRX's outperform STI's of the same year.
The seats are alcantara on the STI, the engine looks better with the red bits !, and the bodykit had the compulsory large rear wing.
I'd always go for the STI of money was no object.
Jonathan
06 February 2001, 10:07 PM
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Okay guys work this one out :
I have an MY00 WRX type RA WRC LTD (non-STi)
It has STi pedals and STi gold wheels as standard (had it from new).
It has an alloy boot and alloy bonnet.
Rev limiter is 7,500
Gearing - 20mph @ 1000rpm in 5th (so its low )
Its got the UK style spoiler and blue interior.
And I got a cheaper quote for insurance on an STi than the RA.
cheers
chrisp
[This message has been edited by chrisp (edited 06 February 2001).]
I have an MY00 WRX type RA WRC LTD (non-STi)
It has STi pedals and STi gold wheels as standard (had it from new).
It has an alloy boot and alloy bonnet.
Rev limiter is 7,500
Gearing - 20mph @ 1000rpm in 5th (so its low
)Its got the UK style spoiler and blue interior.
And I got a cheaper quote for insurance on an STi
than the RA.cheers
chrisp
[This message has been edited by chrisp (edited 06 February 2001).]
06 February 2001, 10:08 PM
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Not sure how the Japanese class blueprinting, but I'd say it's subtly different to what we think.
STis can rev higher cos they have different valve gear.
At the Revs day, my speedo read 158mph - a true 150 @ 7k rpm.
That gives lower gearing than the WRX I believe??
STis can rev higher cos they have different valve gear.
At the Revs day, my speedo read 158mph - a true 150 @ 7k rpm.
That gives lower gearing than the WRX I believe??
07 February 2001, 09:39 AM
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Craig
I believe the gearing on my 4 door standard MY98 WRX is the same as on your STI V. It reads 80mph at 3600rpm which = 155.6 mph at 7000rpm (about mid way between yours and the true reading...). It's recently been recalibrated and is probably slightly more accurate than yours, so I reckon that proves it. Anyone disagree?
On the max engine rpm issue, the red line is at 7500, but the limiter cuts in at about 7750. Isn't the red line on the STI at 8000, but limiter at 8250?
[This message has been edited by scoobysnacks (edited 07 February 2001).]
I believe the gearing on my 4 door standard MY98 WRX is the same as on your STI V. It reads 80mph at 3600rpm which = 155.6 mph at 7000rpm (about mid way between yours and the true reading...). It's recently been recalibrated and is probably slightly more accurate than yours, so I reckon that proves it. Anyone disagree?
On the max engine rpm issue, the red line is at 7500, but the limiter cuts in at about 7750. Isn't the red line on the STI at 8000, but limiter at 8250?
[This message has been edited by scoobysnacks (edited 07 February 2001).]
07 February 2001, 04:54 PM
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Jason b
I have a MY94 WRX standard apart from:
Mongoose full exhaust
HKS Air-filter
Dyno'd at 284.5 BHP at Surrey Auto Services 2 weeks ago on SUL
'Daddy P1' PAH!!
[This message has been edited by Gussie Cup (edited 07 February 2001).]
I have a MY94 WRX standard apart from:
Mongoose full exhaust
HKS Air-filter
Dyno'd at 284.5 BHP at Surrey Auto Services 2 weeks ago on SUL
'Daddy P1' PAH!!
[This message has been edited by Gussie Cup (edited 07 February 2001).]
07 February 2001, 09:50 PM
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Jason B
So the P1 produces 276hp? - so how come they cant keep up with totally standard sti5's then?
I thought the P1 produced about 262 hp at Powerstation, around the same as the sti's but I thought the boost was somewhat restricted to allow it to run on RON 95? - or perhaps they didnt change the ECU at all and are just a big con?
I bought the sti because it has so many more features over the WRX and the difference in price for me was about £2k - if you want to know the differences then ask David Hendry cars for a leaflet!!
So the P1 produces 276hp? - so how come they cant keep up with totally standard sti5's then?
I thought the P1 produced about 262 hp at Powerstation, around the same as the sti's but I thought the boost was somewhat restricted to allow it to run on RON 95? - or perhaps they didnt change the ECU at all and are just a big con?
I bought the sti because it has so many more features over the WRX and the difference in price for me was about £2k - if you want to know the differences then ask David Hendry cars for a leaflet!!
07 February 2001, 09:52 PM
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Jason B.
Japanese fuel is 100RON not 102.
SUL plus Millers is 99 RON which gives you a more likely 276BHP as Jap figures must be conservative.
Isn't it also the case that most (standard) dyno'd P1s have failed to reach 280bhp?
Just what I've heard and not gospel.
On the blueprinting front; this means that an engine is built with componentry machined to it's design tolerance as opposed to production tolerance.
Balancing of con-rodpistoncrankshaft sets is therefore part and parcel to this process.
STis are made in runs of around 500 per year (I believe) which makes this an easily acheivable process for a major competition department such as STi.
I'm sure this is the reason for the higher rev limit and not the valve gear, although I have been wrong once before.....
Neil.
Japanese fuel is 100RON not 102.
SUL plus Millers is 99 RON which gives you a more likely 276BHP as Jap figures must be conservative.
Isn't it also the case that most (standard) dyno'd P1s have failed to reach 280bhp?
Just what I've heard and not gospel.
On the blueprinting front; this means that an engine is built with componentry machined to it's design tolerance as opposed to production tolerance.
Balancing of con-rodpistoncrankshaft sets is therefore part and parcel to this process.
STis are made in runs of around 500 per year (I believe) which makes this an easily acheivable process for a major competition department such as STi.
I'm sure this is the reason for the higher rev limit and not the valve gear, although I have been wrong once before.....
Neil.
07 February 2001, 09:53 PM
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Jason B.
Japanese fuel is 100RON not 102.
SUL plus Millers is 99 RON which gives you a more likely 276BHP as Jap figures must be conservative.
Isn't it also the case that most (standard) dyno'd P1s have failed to reach 280bhp?
Just what I've heard and not gospel.
On the blueprinting front; this means that an engine is built with componentry machined to it's design tolerance as opposed to production tolerance.
Balancing of con-rodpistoncrankshaft sets is therefore part and parcel to this process.
STis are made in runs of around 500 per year (I believe) which makes this an easily acheivable process for a major competition department such as STi.
I'm sure this is the reason for the higher rev limit and not the valve gear, although I have been wrong once before.....
Neil.
Japanese fuel is 100RON not 102.
SUL plus Millers is 99 RON which gives you a more likely 276BHP as Jap figures must be conservative.
Isn't it also the case that most (standard) dyno'd P1s have failed to reach 280bhp?
Just what I've heard and not gospel.
On the blueprinting front; this means that an engine is built with componentry machined to it's design tolerance as opposed to production tolerance.
Balancing of con-rodpistoncrankshaft sets is therefore part and parcel to this process.
STis are made in runs of around 500 per year (I believe) which makes this an easily acheivable process for a major competition department such as STi.
I'm sure this is the reason for the higher rev limit and not the valve gear, although I have been wrong once before.....
Neil.
07 February 2001, 10:19 PM
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Neil,
Sorry to be a party pooper, but that is complete bull.
pistons may be better, but that's about it as far as rods and crank are concerned.
The rev limit is higher because they have solid lifters......
if you don't believe me, you're welcome to balance my original crank....
Sorry to be a party pooper, but that is complete bull.
pistons may be better, but that's about it as far as rods and crank are concerned.
The rev limit is higher because they have solid lifters......
if you don't believe me, you're welcome to balance my original crank....
07 February 2001, 10:28 PM
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Neil
500/year. They made 1000 P1's alone which are basically an STI V with the worst bits removed. Add the ones that went to Aussie, plus home sales. Way over 500 I'm afraid. Mass production more like
Jonathan
500/year. They made 1000 P1's alone which are basically an STI V with the worst bits removed. Add the ones that went to Aussie, plus home sales. Way over 500 I'm afraid. Mass production more like
Jonathan
08 February 2001, 09:13 AM
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Despite my defence of the WRX, I'd still rather have an STI because they are the better car. They were just a bit too expensive for me when I bought my WRX. I don't think I've got a far inferior vehicle though, just one that's not quite so extreme. Next time, when I've finished paying for the WRX, I'll go for an STI (if I don't opt for an EVO).