corradoboy

It's been a while since I owned a Scoob of my own, but a couple of mates both offered drives in theirs recently and I hated both

The first was an 06/07 Hawkeye STi with full decat and remap, running IRO 320bhp. Within a very short distance I felt the car had more power than its chassis could cope with. Along a road I know very well the car felt nervous and edgy, turn-in was vague and it seemed to lurch around on its OE suspension set-up. I had no confidence in it for high speed cornering, and minutes later my crappy diesel Skoda went through the same sequence of bends 5mph faster than I'd done it in the Scoob and it felt safer, and much more planted. I admit, I have probably forgotten how to get the best out of these cars, and my own WRX with its AST coilovers and Whiteline bits was astoundingly composed on minimal (261bhp) power, but I was shocked how poorly this STi handled. I'm hoping to have a longer run in it to see if it was all me or if the car is indeed out of balance, with more power than the car can handle. Having driven similar powered Litchfield T20's, and even a T25, both with similar chassis mods to mine and significant power hikes, I never felt those cars were unstable like this one running OE chassis components.

The second car was a Bugeye STi which has had a few quid thrown at her over the years resulting in about 390bhp. Straight away I could tell this car had much better handling (Apex BC's and Whiteline bits), but what I couldn't get my head around was the awful power delivery and how it needed to be used. With a bigger turbo fitted the lag was horrendous, with nothing happening under 4,200 revs. When you hit the boost however the acceleration was brutal, but this only served to highlight the incorrect gearing. With so much power coming in so late in the range and taking effect so quickly, you had to change gears like a maniac in an attempt to keep up with the engines frantic efforts. I've always thought that the 6sp 'box on STi's was awkward, often needing a change mid-bend or at other inopportune moments due to the short ratios, but by having so much power on tap, the time it took the engine to utilise each ratio was minute. Throw in all the beeps, bleeps, hisses and roars from the defi's, change light/buzzer, DV and zorst and I found the experience tiresome. I certainly wouldn't like to drive it enthusiastically for more than 1/2 an hour.

Getting back to my WRX, even with just the PPP power I found the longer gearing of the 5sp 'box much more suited, allowing a choice of gear on entry to a corner, and enough range in each ratio to see me able to accelerate out from the apex balanced, controlled and on throttle and rising boost, with no drama or pantomime showmanship. My driving style tends to be very smooth, calm and controlled, and reducing the amount of gear changes meant I could keep my car stable on entry, through apex and out of every bend. The T20 and T25's managed this even with their increased power and shorter ratios, and this only serves to prove that I chose well in my modification route on my car by fitting near identical set-ups.

My dilemma from this experience is in where it leaves me for getting another Scoob. I now realise that if it is to be an STi, then it can't be a mega-power model, as they simply do not suit me. It must also have very good chassis mods (or I must do them). I have been fantasising about Hawkeye Type RA's, RA-R's and S204's, but would these be too manic for me ? Am I limited to T20's, or a JDM STi mod'd to similar spec ? However, I also had a ride in another friends STi at Cadwell on Monday and he had had some major internal work done resulting in around 380bhp, but a massive 560 lb/ft of torque (IIRC). This saw the car able to pull like a train from very low down, all the way to the red-line, maximising every gear. This flexibility I feel would be more suited to my driving, but Cosworth internals and full rebuilds along with associated products and services don't come cheap.

Opinions ?????

swifty.....!

iTrader: (4)

the standard sti springs are rubbish and make the car feel very unsure and bouncy but easly sorted and cheaply with prodrive springs. add a rear whiteline arb improves it further as you know.

but the biggest reason you wont like them for is there set up for the owner not you. as they have the car how they want it same with any modded car.
also not driving one for ages has a big impact as you have to learn how to get the best out of the car not expect the car to drive how you want it to (before modding to your tastes of course)

corradoboy

After 3 years running my own I am aware how to get the best, but maybe a little rusty. The roads and traffic situations didn't help on the two drives as I barely got a chance to stretch their legs, but the disappointment was immediate and very evident in both. One was clumsy and cumbersome with little feel or finesse, the other was very direct and sure footed, but brutal and insane to the point of being a real handful and very quickly tiresome. My old car I could drive all day and never tire, and never found its speed lacking, even against much, MUCH more powerful cars both on road and track. I think I will ask to observe how each owner drives them to understand why they have them as they do, them maybe see if I can drive myself for an hour or so and see if I find a sweet spot, but right now neither of them would get a parking space on my drive

swifty.....!

iTrader: (4)

i understand what your saying i ment you have to drive 6 speeds different compared to your old 5 speed and also the diff can take some getting used to if its in auto mode etc. its why to get best you need to have a good play finding the best driving style for the car.

power changes like the turbo also changes the way you drive as to get the most from the power band you have to alter how you corner etc etc and alot more gear changes

but its like anything you need to get the car set up to where you like it and gives you the most confidence so you feel sure enough to push the car faster etc. as confidence in the car sets how you drive it

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

I use to make less gear changes with my 6 speeder than with my 5 speeder on my JDM Spec C because of the power delivery it provided the grunt low down due to the twin scroll setup so it was more flexable
Now the downside of a single scroll car with a big turbo is that lag low down plus it makes for harder driving, but still i would have thought it would have handled the corners in a higher gear with no issues, maybe its just the way its mapped or the turbo isnt suited for the engine?

Tony

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Dave, the rev limits is 7500 rpm mate....

That diesel has spoilt you rotten.

What I want from my toy is a "workout" or "theatrical" experience, something out of norm. I agree a six speed can seem a bit frenetic, but when you get it right, the "roadcraft" means little braking, and so fewer gear changes.

I'd be the first to admit that 360 bhp on the standard turbo would be ideal, and the more you chase, the greater the compromise.

Still drives o.k. as a road car, so not so bad it's a pain.

Geometry set-up has made a massive difference, I drove quickly in the wet on Tuesday night, and was easily as quick as I used to be in the dry. Thank you for passing on the details for the set-up. ( Tein Superstreets btw)

As for beeps, once adjusted only the std. STI rev/beep warning will be in action ( hopefully ! )

LOL

dunx

P.S. Had been a year since I drove Lynsey's Fabia, and they are crazy fun little things aren't they !

P.P.S. Trying it without a DV, and the Whiteline "knock-links" are being binned today !

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

Must admit, your Scoob is the fastest car I've ever been in. The turbo feels quite surreal, as yes it takes a while to kick in as Dave said, but it's a slight surge, but a relentless one all the way up the rev range. Totally different car in comparison to say, Drew from Precious Metals car. Thats about 350-360 isn't it? The kick from the turbo on that is insane, but it comes in quicker and dies a little quicker too.

I can't figure out which one I prefer as I've only been a passenger.

Roll on the 20th and I can get my fix of boooooooost

carl555

iTrader: (7)

Dave, I’m no expert in this field but everything you describe about the suspension feel is what I experienced when I first had my 03 STI PPP (with Prodrive Springs). Nervous, edgy, lurching and unstable, etc, etc, especially for high speed cornering. Even with all standard components it was a totally different car after a geo set up. It wasn’t even that far out, just the little tweeks made all the difference.

Just wonder if the Hawkeye you tried needed this doing.

Luckyscoob

iTrader: (2)

From my experience, I found the general set up of my hawkeye from leaving the showroom was shocking for a car costing £27k. Geometry was miles out, standard suspension is very bouncy and can make the rear end feel unstable, and in my opinion, and this is only my opinion, the Bridgestones (RE070's) are best suited to a track and not the road. Tramlining was aweful. The answer: Change the springs, tyres and geo setup and its a different car Why subaru couldnt think of that, god knows. Once this is all done they are pretty untouchable if driven well.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Agree with you entirely, had mine for 4 yearsd although never could get it set up quite right for me. Went back to a classic and it felt 'right' from the outset. Personal preference of course.

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Hi c.o.b. I wish it could have "managed" at the 2 bar it had earlier....

That was a Skyline type experience, but the JGM said it would just melt if left like that !



dunx

P.S. I don't want any bl**dy friends, so s*d off

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

dunx

iTrader: (3)

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

JRFRACE

why not just get one of the model type you had before and spec it the same?

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Time marches on !

Regards "Victor".

dunx

P.S. I think "Dave" corradoboy would be fine with a Hawkeye WRX with the same sort of spec as his old WRX. i.m.h.o.

beal

iTrader: (1)

I've only just sold my06 sti,and theres one thing that sticks in my mind..it was fantastic round the twistys and didnt seem to lurch or anything!And it was all standard even the tyres..
But i did drive it for 2 years and it was probably better and better as time went on.

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

With a derv engine.... yes.

corradoboy

If it's the BMW 3.0 litre twin turbo, then bring it on That engine, all that torque, bolted into a well sorted Scoob with 4WD would be

Scoobychick

iTrader: (1)

Have a go in a new hatchback STi, it's a different beast again and by far the nicest Scoob I've ever driven. I often drive my Dad's 08 and it makes my PPP'd 01 feel like crap and is leagues ahead of his old 05 STi.

If I had the money I'd have one, I even love it's looks now plus with a decent exhaust it sounds right too

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

I run a bugeye with about 400 BHP...........I like the comment about the acceleration being brutal

There must be something wrong with the mapping if nothing happens below 4200 RPM though.....was it running a 20G ??

Shaun

dunx

iTrader: (3)

321H, but Dave's diesel red-lines at 4500 rpm, IIRC

LOL

dunx

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

When I was out on the laps with him, he seemed to change around 4,000rpm iirc. Thing is for a diesel with so much torque, thats adequate as it takes longer to get there while you're zooming along.

Should stick a Legacy derv engine in there and get the boxer back

corradoboy

The torque is available from 2k and redline is 4.5k. BHP comes on song at 180 at 3k. Anything over 4k and you're wasting time as you may as well get back into the torque and rising BHP, so 2.5-4k is the ideal power band.

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

Being a passenger it's harder to tell where the power is in a diesel if you follow. No surge of power like when I was in Drews car for instance.

I remember I had a spanking new TDI Passat (57 plate) hire car. That had a small lag when putting your foot down, but then just a constant smooth delivery, pretty much like yours Dave, just minus the extra bhp/lb.ft

Whats the comparison for the petrol equivalent of the Fabia?

corradoboy

No idea, never driven one, and they didn't do a vRS petrol in the Furby.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Having drove shed loads of Scooby's in many different guises

I cannot understand the rational of a UK Scoob with "Torquey" 2.5ltr, a 7Krpm limit and a smaller power band, having a 6speed box (other than being stronger) IMHO I Think a 5 speed box would have been far more suited.


My JDM is a different story, with 8Krpm and twinscroll normally gives me enough speed differencial and powerband to save a gearchanges during manouvring

Tony

corradoboy

My thinking exactly, with twin scrolls pulling from very low to a higher red-line, each gear has much more flexibility. So I'm back to needing a JDM STi based Type 20, maybe even a Spec C model to benefit from it being a bit lighter. If I modify, it would be internal bottom end stuff to increase torque. Sorted.

53

iTrader: (41)

TBH you get off to a bad start in the MY06/07. Higher seating position immediately makes you feel like you just sat down in a forrester. Secondly the DBW throttle seems to deliver the power in a somewhat sloppy way, there is almost no resistance feel in the accelerator unlike a cable. Standard springs are awful, wallowing around and the steering is very light and needs far more correction and input than my classic for example. The extra power is great but you are constantly holding back and hovering half way on the power. In contrast my classic is foot to the floor and cruises tidy with a nice foot resting position.

The good thing is you can rectify all these things via mapping, new springs, whiteline products etc. The bad thing is I have yet to own an impreza that hasn't required modification to make it fit for purpose as a proper fast road car.

dunx

iTrader: (3)

A touch harsh, 53WRX mate, they are producing road cars, the fact we are so demanding says a lot for the basic product with some mods can provide as much fun as we can handle !

dunx

P.S. everything has coped with a 50 % BHP/torque increase, well the clutch and suspension were 7 years old, and better brakes are a no-brainer....