Why did only Subaru & Mitsubishi go 4WD?
06 March 2009, 04:26 PM
#1
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Why did only Subaru & Mitsubishi go 4WD?
When you think about it loads of Manufacturers have been involved with World Rally Cars since their inception in 1997, but only Subaru and Mitsubishi offered similar hot 4WD road cars on the back of it. Just think of all the others: Ford Focus NO, Citroen Xsara & C4 NO. Toyota Corolla NO, Seat Cordoba NO, Skoda Octavia & Fabia NO, Peugeot 206 & 307 NO, Hyundai Accent NO; Suzuki SX4 NO (I think!).
It may be a bit late in the day now, but hats off to the Subaru & Mitsubishi Playstation generation for getting these great cars to market.
It may be a bit late in the day now, but hats off to the Subaru & Mitsubishi Playstation generation for getting these great cars to market.
06 March 2009, 04:47 PM
#3
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Since 1997 no, before yes, many manufacturers during and before Sub or Mitsi - audi, lancia, nissan, toyota.
The issue is the costs involved - you will never see specials like the Nissan GTIR or the Escort Cosworth because its just too expensive to build these almost bespoke cars.
Ford for instance decided to would be cheaper to develop a really good FWD chassis rather than develop a 4WD system - why they couldn't use the Volvo system I don't know.
Its the same reason why Mitsi and Sub carry on with 4WD - it would cost too much to completely re-engineer a platform with FWD only hence why they contine with 4WD and other don't.
EDIT - I think the VRS Skoda Octavia is 4WD but only the estate version. You could even get a 4WD Leon Cupra R but not in the UK - good call! not! And don't get me started on Honda not bothering with the 4WD Integra Type R (there are 4WD Integras).
The issue is the costs involved - you will never see specials like the Nissan GTIR or the Escort Cosworth because its just too expensive to build these almost bespoke cars.
Ford for instance decided to would be cheaper to develop a really good FWD chassis rather than develop a 4WD system - why they couldn't use the Volvo system I don't know.
Its the same reason why Mitsi and Sub carry on with 4WD - it would cost too much to completely re-engineer a platform with FWD only hence why they contine with 4WD and other don't.
EDIT - I think the VRS Skoda Octavia is 4WD but only the estate version. You could even get a 4WD Leon Cupra R but not in the UK - good call! not! And don't get me started on Honda not bothering with the 4WD Integra Type R (there are 4WD Integras).
Last edited by EddScott; 06 March 2009 at 04:52 PM.
06 March 2009, 05:29 PM
#5
The "World Rally Car" rules were setup so the manufacturers didn't have to make a production version of the car to compete in the WRC, that is why companies like Ford and Citroen don't make a road going version, they don't have to as the FIA decided these companies wouldn't enter if they had to make such a car.
Prior to the "WR Car" introduction you had the Group A rules that required a minimum production run to base the car on, that is why you had the likes of Ford and Lancia building an AWD version in their model range.
There is no money in an AWD car for the likes of Ford or Citroen, but it's part of the core marketing strategy for Subaru and Mitsubishi to cater for this market, which is why they still sell road cars with AWD.
Prior to the "WR Car" introduction you had the Group A rules that required a minimum production run to base the car on, that is why you had the likes of Ford and Lancia building an AWD version in their model range.
There is no money in an AWD car for the likes of Ford or Citroen, but it's part of the core marketing strategy for Subaru and Mitsubishi to cater for this market, which is why they still sell road cars with AWD.
06 March 2009, 05:39 PM
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Subaru were producing AWD cars long before they got into rallying. The SVX coupe was quirky and quick and in some ways ahead of its time. Not sure if was imported into the UK but you still see them occasionally in, eg, Australia.
Subaru Alcyone SVX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PS Nice to see Mr Felstead on here again!
Subaru Alcyone SVX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PS Nice to see Mr Felstead on here again!
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06 March 2009, 06:00 PM
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here in the US, the Suzuki SX4 is offered in both FWD and AWD trim. also, the Toyota GTFour is (and has always been) AWD... 
last i recall, Toyota has pulled the plug on the official GTFour Celica, but it has transferred over to the Caldina (ST215 chassis).
i agree though. it would be great to see more AWD road going versions of WRC cars...
last i recall, Toyota has pulled the plug on the official GTFour Celica, but it has transferred over to the Caldina (ST215 chassis).
i agree though. it would be great to see more AWD road going versions of WRC cars...
06 March 2009, 08:41 PM
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awd VS 4wd - its the same thing.
i do know that some transmissions allow 4 Hi, 4 Low, 2 Hi and 2 Low gearsets... but, its still the same basic thing. 4 axles and power to all of them.
i do know that some transmissions allow 4 Hi, 4 Low, 2 Hi and 2 Low gearsets... but, its still the same basic thing. 4 axles and power to all of them.
06 March 2009, 08:45 PM
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06 March 2009, 09:05 PM
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not my cup of tea BUT 182mph now thats nice ;-)
Subaru were producing AWD cars long before they got into rallying. The SVX coupe was quirky and quick and in some ways ahead of its time. Not sure if was imported into the UK but you still see them occasionally in, eg, Australia.
Subaru Alcyone SVX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PS Nice to see Mr Felstead on here again!
Subaru Alcyone SVX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PS Nice to see Mr Felstead on here again!
27 March 2009, 04:26 PM
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28 March 2009, 11:44 AM
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the confusion comes when slippage on one or more wheels occurs; it’s in this condition that the term “4 wheel drive” is important
and its all to do with the centre diff, in an awd its usually an open diff, and will send drive/torque to the axle/wheel with the least traction, so in an AWD "full time 4 wheel drive" “permanent 4 wheel drive” in extreme conditions it will spin one wheel, this is the same as a Range Rover, Landcruiser, Shogun etc etc (and Subaru) in the default "full time 4 wheel drive" mode
but this is where off roaders differ, in extreme conditions if you loose grip/traction you can lock the centre diff, this will split the drive 50/50 between the front and rear axles
so if one of the front wheels is spinning coz it’s getting a 100% of the torque after I engage my diff lock in my Toyota it may spin but with only 50% of the torque the other 50% will go to the rear tyres and if they have grip I will move forward
my Toyota has locking diffs on all three axles, centre, front and rear, which in effect turns it into a true 4 wheel drive as each wheel will get 25% of the torque regardless of whether the other wheels are spinning, which actually can't happen because in effect all wheels turn as one – but its is virtually undrivable in any meaningful sense and you would only use this pure 4 wheel drive in truly extreme conditions (you cannot turn the steering wheel)
so AWD is the same as 4 wheel drive – however SUV’s that say “part time 4 wheel drive” like HiLux’s Shogun Sports, etc are basically two wheel drive for normal use, but with the ability to turn them in 4 wheel drive (with a locked centre diff) for very slippy conditions – but not for normal driving
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 28 March 2009 at 01:19 PM.
28 March 2009, 06:50 PM
#21
Deman vs cost 
If anyone has looked underneath a new Focus, it is made to be capeable of being 4wd (the centre tunnel is huge - more than a Golf, which has space to swing for a Haldex diff). Without doubt the Focus floorpan is designed to be able to have a driven rear axle (maybe with the intention of using the floorpan for another model). But they didn't do it Seems daft, as the ST is far too powerful to be a FWD car, it uses so much throttle management limiting engine output to make the driver "think" it has traction (regardless of TC setting), its just a waste of engine. Same with the Astra and Vectra VXR and Golf GTi or Scirocco.
If anyone has looked underneath a new Focus, it is made to be capeable of being 4wd (the centre tunnel is huge - more than a Golf, which has space to swing for a Haldex diff). Without doubt the Focus floorpan is designed to be able to have a driven rear axle (maybe with the intention of using the floorpan for another model). But they didn't do it
Seems daft, as the ST is far too powerful to be a FWD car, it uses so much throttle management limiting engine output to make the driver "think" it has traction (regardless of TC setting), its just a waste of engine. Same with the Astra and Vectra VXR and Golf GTi or Scirocco.
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