Why are Remaps so expensive?
28 January 2009, 11:35 AM
#1
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Why are Remaps so expensive?
I been thinking about this for a while now, so I'd thought I'd ask here.
Now.
This is NOT a witch hunt and I do not want it to turn into a which hunt. Let get that clear.
How come I can get my diesel van remapped for power and/or ecomony for aroung £200.00 yet if you want to remap a performance cars ECU it can cost up to 5 or 6 hundred quid!
Obviously prices are going to differ a little from place to place, I understand that. But why such a huge difference in cost?
Now.
This is NOT a witch hunt and I do not want it to turn into a which hunt. Let get that clear.
How come I can get my diesel van remapped for power and/or ecomony for aroung £200.00 yet if you want to remap a performance cars ECU it can cost up to 5 or 6 hundred quid!
Obviously prices are going to differ a little from place to place, I understand that. But why such a huge difference in cost?
28 January 2009, 11:45 AM
#3
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It is the cost of the license.
Maps can only be done through certain software. Over half the cost of the map is actually just the license. This is why additional maps (from the same mapper at least) are about the £200 mark.
5t.
Maps can only be done through certain software. Over half the cost of the map is actually just the license. This is why additional maps (from the same mapper at least) are about the £200 mark.
5t.
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28 January 2009, 12:31 PM
#9
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maybe the diesel remap is just a generic map that is known to work safely with that particular engine, whereas a petrol remap (scooby as an example) people tend to use a lot of different go faster bits on which a generic map isnt really suited for
28 January 2009, 12:49 PM
#11
When you get a scooby remapped, you are likely getting software called "ecutek" put on to your ECU. For this software, you have to pay a license fee. It's quite high at 300 odd quid (I think), hence why the first remap ends up costing around 650 quid, and subsequent ones about 300-350
28 January 2009, 01:06 PM
#12
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most break down as follows
Mappers time
License fee
profit
but theres other possible additions such as rolling road time (if done that way)
then old gordon take his share as well
mappers time say £50 per hour @ average of 5 hours £250
license, bit of a grey area this i heard anywhere from £175 to £300 for it
£50 profit (not alots made from mapping)
so say £250 + £300 + £50 = 600 x 1.15 = £690
if RR @ say a base price of £100
£600 + £100 = 700 x 1.15 = £805
that assumes that no issues are found that need rectifying like maf sensor etc (which i notice that most place dont tend to charge you fitting if your having a new one fitted at mapping time).
Mappers time
License fee
profit
but theres other possible additions such as rolling road time (if done that way)
then old gordon take his share as well
mappers time say £50 per hour @ average of 5 hours £250
license, bit of a grey area this i heard anywhere from £175 to £300 for it
£50 profit (not alots made from mapping)
so say £250 + £300 + £50 = 600 x 1.15 = £690
if RR @ say a base price of £100
£600 + £100 = 700 x 1.15 = £805
that assumes that no issues are found that need rectifying like maf sensor etc (which i notice that most place dont tend to charge you fitting if your having a new one fitted at mapping time).
28 January 2009, 01:24 PM
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The main difference in price is down to the amount of time involved. Most of the maps for the diesels, VAG group etc, are just generic maps, a map with pre set increase in boost/fuel/ignition advance and so on. These are pre-written, proven maps and will only take a few minutes to install. The "mapper" doesn`t actually have to map anything, software is used to pull the original map off the ecu, and then write back the pre-written map. A friend of mine does this with no special skills at all, the maps are d-loaded from ECU Tuning Files and Remap Database by Tunefood. Some bigger places may then stick the car on the rollers to check fueling is safe with a wideband, but again only half hours work.
Now when you take an impreza in for a re-map, most places (not all!) will spend around 4-5 hours on the map. They pull the data off the ecu, and then they will edit which ever maps they need to, to make your car ideal for whichever parts you have fitted. The software on later subaru ECUs allows this to be done easily, whereas lots of other makers dont, hence using the other method. The mapper in this case will have to have great skill/knoledge as he will be adjusting boost/ target boost / advance / injector pulse etc indvidually for the best results. This method will get much better results than using a generic map as it will be suited perfectly to your car, where as the generic map will "play it safe" so it can be used on various engine setups without destroying the engine.
There are places, thankfully not many and not well known, that will stick a generic map on a scooby and tell you its been fully mapped!
Now when you take an impreza in for a re-map, most places (not all!) will spend around 4-5 hours on the map. They pull the data off the ecu, and then they will edit which ever maps they need to, to make your car ideal for whichever parts you have fitted. The software on later subaru ECUs allows this to be done easily, whereas lots of other makers dont, hence using the other method. The mapper in this case will have to have great skill/knoledge as he will be adjusting boost/ target boost / advance / injector pulse etc indvidually for the best results. This method will get much better results than using a generic map as it will be suited perfectly to your car, where as the generic map will "play it safe" so it can be used on various engine setups without destroying the engine.
There are places, thankfully not many and not well known, that will stick a generic map on a scooby and tell you its been fully mapped!
28 January 2009, 02:04 PM
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you cannot compare a generic derv map to a bespoke petrol map.
You can compare a generic derv map to a generic petrol map, and these can similarly be had for a few hundred quid.
You can compare a generic derv map to a generic petrol map, and these can similarly be had for a few hundred quid.
28 January 2009, 03:28 PM
#21
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Aside from the license fee and some hardware the only cost is the mappers time. When there are lots of poeple wanting maps and relatively few mappers this is expensive. If we saw more respected mappers out there or less demand I'm sure price would drop. As it is good luck to them, if its that easy to make money from then learn the skill and offer your services at a lower rate, I'll take you up on it!
28 January 2009, 03:45 PM
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Cost is a subjective issue, the only 2 generic maps I am aware of are Prodrive as part of the PPP and the Subaru factory map. The other cost in the form of EcuTek as I understood it in the past was the purchase of a “commercial mapping license” I can not remember the exact term this was in the x thousand pounds up front cost, plus a number of EucTek licenses at £150-200 per car, add to that cost of a laptop and time learning about what you are doing. So far you have spent out maybe £6-8k and you have not advertised your services or had any income!
The alternative is open source software, which depending on what you feel has some draw backs and a cable for about £80, but if you have a problem its up to you or the “community” to solve the issue which could be problem if you are not getting paid for your services or have to revist your customer.
When factoring in the cost, you need to consider the mappers overheads and also experience that they are bring to get the most out of a car with many variables that never 100% the same.
What i am trying to say is mapping and reflashing are not the same thing.
The alternative is open source software, which depending on what you feel has some draw backs and a cable for about £80, but if you have a problem its up to you or the “community” to solve the issue which could be problem if you are not getting paid for your services or have to revist your customer.
When factoring in the cost, you need to consider the mappers overheads and also experience that they are bring to get the most out of a car with many variables that never 100% the same.
What i am trying to say is mapping and reflashing are not the same thing.
28 January 2009, 03:48 PM
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Andy F is quite open on pricing with and without a license being needed. His site also has a nice in depth piece as the what he would be looking for on a ECU/map which shows just how many variables there are.
Worth a read.
AndyForrestPerformance
5t.
Worth a read.
AndyForrestPerformance
5t.
28 January 2009, 03:58 PM
#25
The cheapest option for me would be to use Powerstation. But if I went to e.g. Andy F I would have to pay approx £350 extra (on top)as original Litchfield/Powerstation map is locked for Andy F & more he'l need to spend more time on mapping. I wont have to pay the original £500/£600 licence fee thank god!
Another point Iv just discovered after looking at Andy F website is that after initial Andy F map, subsequent mapping is £195. So I suppose Powerstation charging me £120 per hour is reasonable as its considered subsequent mapping of their own original map.
Another point Iv just discovered after looking at Andy F website is that after initial Andy F map, subsequent mapping is £195. So I suppose Powerstation charging me £120 per hour is reasonable as its considered subsequent mapping of their own original map.
Last edited by rickya; 28 January 2009 at 04:04 PM.
28 January 2009, 04:00 PM
#26
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Whatever the market will stand is what will be charged IMO. Scooby owners, in my experience, want to pay big money and the mappers oblige quite willingly - which is perfectly understandable.
28 January 2009, 05:47 PM
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Maybe.. But I am getting a map that is specific to me. The guy is going to start with a base map and alter it accordingly. Isn't that the same for a petrol map?
28 January 2009, 05:59 PM
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IMO some of it is down to competition. There are far more VWs and Fords on the road than Imprezas. Let alone counting the millions of SEATs, Skodas and Audis.
Someone wanting a bit more pep in their standard Impreza WRX or STI has the option of PPP. Expensive... yes. But Subaru/IM will honour their new car warranty for three years and offer extensions after that.
People going for custom remaps, tek3s, different ECUs are moving beyond the mild tweaking stage.
Add a decat, better filter or cone filter and maybe an FMIC.... To realise the full potential of the car you need a custom remap. This is also true of turbo-diesels. Add an FMIC and/or change the turbo and the map isn't working as harmoniously with the hardware.
Last I looked, custom remaps for Golfs (1.8T or 1.9TDI) were £400+. This isn't too dissimilar to some prices I've seen for newage Impreza maps....
J.
Someone wanting a bit more pep in their standard Impreza WRX or STI has the option of PPP. Expensive... yes. But Subaru/IM will honour their new car warranty for three years and offer extensions after that.
People going for custom remaps, tek3s, different ECUs are moving beyond the mild tweaking stage.
Add a decat, better filter or cone filter and maybe an FMIC.... To realise the full potential of the car you need a custom remap. This is also true of turbo-diesels. Add an FMIC and/or change the turbo and the map isn't working as harmoniously with the hardware.
Last I looked, custom remaps for Golfs (1.8T or 1.9TDI) were £400+. This isn't too dissimilar to some prices I've seen for newage Impreza maps....
J.
