RB170

I was on the M4 last night and as usual the middle and outside lanes were busy they were doing 55-60mph, I was in the inside lane which was reasonably clear and was able to do 70mph so I did......

Is this illegal? Mutant Matt and I are having a discussion and he reckons that I'm gonna get nicked one day.... I'm pretty sure that as long as I'm already in that lane and do not exceed the speed limit and it is safe, I should be OK.

robski

I would agree with you, and often do this myself when in this situation.
I just ensure that I am in that lane for at least 30-60 seconds before gaining speed upto 70. I make sure I never exceed 70 under these circumstances tho

robski

adrianl

As far as I understood the law it was only ok to undertake if the person you were undertaking was indicating his intention to turn right and below the speed limit.

Adrian

mutant_matt

But - this still constitues undertaking (or passing on the left which I think is the official phrase) and is still a nickable offence!!!

You will FAIL your Advanced Test if you do this ('cos it's illegal) and if you break the law on your test you will fail!!

Doesn't mean you can't do it if it isn't unreasonable though - I do from time to time but try to avoid it as it seems like a silly way to get nicked!!

I do it more on the bike though...

KF

This really needs clarification, as the signposts round the M25 say that you should stay in lane, when variable limits are in action. I can't see the police being happy for people in lanes 1&2 stopping when traffic in lane 3 grinds to a halt (as it often does). When does queueing become normal driving? At what point does it become illegal. Stuart?
KF.

chiark

I *think* that undertaking is permissable in a queue, though what makes a queue is rather open. You're also not supposed to vary your speed, IIRC.

andrew6321

As I understand it, you may 'undertake' providing traffic in the lane you are in is moving quicker than the others. I think this applies to multi-carriageway roads only though. So, RB170, I reckon you're legal.

Dippy

A long time ago a car undertook me whilst I was moving into the left lane and we had a minor accident.

I checked with the Police and was told that it was NOT illegal to undertake if the traffic is heavy.

Sounds like this is the circumstances that RB170 was in.

BTW I was travelling down the M3 on Friday night and the traffic was heavy. On a two-lane part I was the ONLY car in the left lane. Now I wasn't in a hurry so for a while I was doing about 70-75 whilst everyone else was doing 80+. Then there was a lot of braking, except me of course - why should I? The result was that I must have travelled at least a mile, undertaking every car in the right lane, and STILL no-one moved over!

Why are so many drivers OBSESSED with being in the right-hand lane???

RB170

OK Highway code bit...

"Only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so. Stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left".

What constitutes a queue is it more than 2 cars 3 cars 4 cars what??


[This message has been edited by RB170 (edited 18 December 2000).]

DrEvil

RB170, this is classified as undertaking, you're not s'posed to do it...

barge

I hate the outside lane hoggers, I will undertake, if safe, I dont mean swerve in undertake & backout.
I'm sure the Hightway code says something about moving over to the left.

I'm waiting for the day I get stopped for doing 70 on the middle or inside when the others are doing 50odd, I'll gladly go to court and argue the point, especialy if the outer lanes are being held up by 'KINGS OF THE ROAD' I'll ask why PC Plod did not pull them over to causing holdups.

Barge in an argumentitive mode today sorry.

mutant_matt

Some other interesting topical web links:

What constitutes a Queue?

Stef

If the traffic was not congested, i.e, not slow moving, then I believe you are breaking the law. I was told by an officer that it is only permissable to pass on the left if the traffic is slow moving and you stay in your lane. 55-60mph is not slow moving. Any one of the cars in the middle lane could suddenly come over without indicating and you would be at fault if you hit them.
Just be careful and don't forget, motorways are cctv monitored.

Stef.

mutant_matt

Just dug this out of the Archives also, it's from Chris @ the Speedtrap bible and was posted to the Speedtrap list server a while ago:

Also, I had an experience a couple of nights ago on the M25 that has eaten
away yet another little chunk of my faith in the police. For the first
time I can remember, all three inside lanes were clear, and everyone was
sitting nose-to-tail in the outside lane. I'd just passed a van in lane 3
and was pulling in again, all the way over to lane 1. Remember, all three
inside lanes were now clear. About 30 seconds later, I was joined by a
police Vauxhall Omega who flagged me down, and we stopped. I'm
paraphrasing, but the conversation followed these lines:
"Do you know why we've stopped you?"
"No."
"You were driving dangerously by overtaking on the inside."
"I was?"
"Yes."
"But according to the highway code, I can overtake on the inside if the
traffic on my right is slowing down - look at it - it's all coming to a
dead stop."
"That's an interesting interpretation."
"I'm not interpreting anything - look - a constant stream of brakelights
says to me 'we're slowing down'. Plus, I consider it to be far safer
travelling in the inside lane with two clear lanes to my right and about
half a mile stopping distance instead of doing 60mph nose-to-tail in the
outside lane just because nobody will pull over to free up the flow of
traffic."
"I see. Nevertheless, you shouldn't have been in the inside lane."

(What!? Policeman talking b*ll*cks - I decide to up the ante)

"Why not? I respectfully point out that you too were sitting in the
outside lane in your police car instead of one of the inner lanes. Surely
if you'd completed any overtaking act, you should have been pulling back
to the inside lane(s)?"

Well - clearly this comment irritated the officer and he called his mate
to get out and come and join us.

"So you saw us then?"
"Of course."
"So why did you do it?"
"Because I'd overtaken the van on my inside and was pulling in. The rest
of the traffic was slowing down and I saw no point in slowing down with it
when the inside three lanes were clear."

(Police irritation factor rising)

"I'm sorry, but you were still driving dangerously."
"How? I wasn't speeding, and I was clearly within the guidelines of the
highway code? How was I driving dangerously.?"

(Blank looks from both officers)

"We're going to give you a producer - take your documents to - where's
your local station?"
"Reading"
"Well take them to Reading with this" - he starts to write a producer -
"and expect to hear from us in the post in the next couple of weeks."
"Hang on a tic - I've got them all here."

By habit, I carry my insurance, MOT and license around with me. I dug them
out and gave them to the officers to examine. This act seemed to irritate
them even further.

"Hmm. Wait here."

One of them went back to the car with my documents whilst the other one
started to do a fine-tooth-comb investigation of my Audi. Exhaust was
good, numberplates clean and lights working, all head- and tail-lights
working, windscreen wipers not perished.
Then he leaned into the car through the passenger side door and checked
the gear **** - presumably to make sure it was in neutral, and got out and
went around the back to try to push the car - presumably to try to see if
the handbrake was on. He then got out a tread gauge and measured the tread
on all my tyres too. At this point, the other officer came back.

"Everything seems to be fine there. This your car then?"
"Yes, why?"
"What's the registration number?"
I told him, and the ridiculous charade carried on for about 10 minutes and
at the end of it, I was thoroughly fed up with the whole situation. It
became increasingly clear to them that I was right, I knew my rights and
the law, and they couldn't find anything to do me for. I've never seen two
officers become quite so irritated and angry. They left me eventually, but
followed me the rest of the way around the M25, down the M3 and in to
Bracknell.

andrew6321

I think this is one of those 'grey' areas. Where possible, I will always 'filter' down the middle of a queue on my bike, which is a bit like undertaking. Technically, you're not supposed to do it, but I've filtered right past traffic cars who don't even blink (all bikers do it). I guess 'marginal' manoeuvres like this are ok, providing you do them safely and appropriately.

RB170

I asked my niece (Who's a copperette) and a colleague of her's if undertaking in the same lane, aka filtering, was illegal and they said that there was no law that they knew of about filtering but it could be construde as Undue care and attention if you have an incident......

chiark

Andrew: Isn't that called "lane splitting"? If it is, the police take an extremely dim view... If it isn't once again I'm leaping in with a little knowledge

RB170

It appears that we all have different opinions on "UNDERTAKING" "PASSING ON THE LEFT etc. I think we need to views of an expert in the field of "YOUR NICKED MY SON".....CALLING STUART H

Wino Wilky

Isn't undertaking classified as pulling into the left lane to overtake slow traffic ahead of you? I.e. traffic blocked ahead, manoeuvre into left lane for X hundred feet. When traffic is clear in right hand lane then manoeuvre back into it.

That classification I could see as illegal, because effectively you are over taking in the left hand lane. However, if you pull over and then stick only in the left lane, that surely cannot be classified as undertaking?

But once again the grey area beckons as in to how far do you have to travel in the left lane before you can move back into the right lane... *boggle*

-Wilky adds his two cents and confuses things even further-

andrew6321

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chiark:
[B]Andrew: Isn't that called "lane splitting"?

chiark - That may be true! What I meant was filtering between two *stationary* queues of traffic (like on the M4 every night). Your're right though, filtering between moving lines of traffic is tantamount to suicide and seriously frowned upon by our friends in blue...

DavidG

I seem to remember that somebody asked this on the SIDC Essex Police driving course, and we were told that on the motorway if you are doing less than the speed limit and there is someone in an outside lane doing less than you, you can pass them on the left.

Don't get me started on undertaking Sometimes there's <I>no other way</I> of getting around the Volvos and other KINGS OF THE ROAD, and you see that those that are prepared to undertake get by and those that aren't just sit behind Mr Volvo flashing their lights in frustration. Not saying which of those groups I fall into.

Have you noticed how sometimes everything is back to front with a totally full outside lane and <I>nothing</I> in the inside lane except a truck about a mile up the road? Driving towards London on the M4 yesterday evening was like that a lot of the time.

Stuart H

A complicated one this

Highway Code Rule 242:
<I>Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.</I>

You will get nicked if you blatantly take the **** and move from lane to lane depending on which one is moving the fastest. The circumstances you have described would be classed as congestion and staying in lane 1 which was moving faster than 2 or 3 would not be classed as undertaking.

With regards to the incident which Matt has posted details of, I have seen video which told a slight different story to the chain of events published. However, every story has two sides.

KF

Cheers Stuart,
Looks as though it is a case of excercising discression, and *the system*, and trusting that any police onlooker does the same.
Heaven help us if they decide to automate this one...

Often I have wondered, though, if it would be legal to pull over to the left, exit motorway, accelerate on slip road to legal limit, drive over roundabout, and accelerate the other side to the legal limit so as to pass the old duffer weaving between lanes 2 & 3 at 50mph.
KF.

matt_d

Does anyone know the specific law which bans undertaking? (except when queues are present)

MorayMackenzie

matt_d has a good point... IIRC, The highway code states "You must" or "You must not" wherever a law is concerned.

I suspect such cases could be dealt with using some "generic" charge such as "due care and attention" or "dangerous driving".

Stuart Knight

iTrader: (2)

I must admit to knowing a bit about this, as I was "done" last month for undertaking (on my motorbike).

Cicumstance was this. M40 J1 to J3 was observed by police office to "undertake" three seperate vehicles by moving into lane three (of four) and "accelerating" pas vehicle in lane four. Speed was around 60mph. I denied this stating I was following highway code for lane discipline, as lane four was no longer overtaking lane three, I moved back into lane three as there was a greater "safety cell", i.e. a larger gap to the car in front. Said traffice in lane four then slowed, enough to appear that I undertook. When lane four speeded up again, I moved back into lane four to overtake traffic in three. This was all around the speed limit. The magistrates preferred the police account of the incident, even though the police admitted they were 300 metres behind and could only see my head and shoulders through the traffice, therefore they couldn't see surrounding vehicle brake lights or specific movements. Anyway upshot of it was 5 points, £250 fine, £155 costs and a "Careless driving" on my license. I wouldn't have minded but I really wasn't riding like a loony, and couldn't have been more "careful" with my actions if I'd tried.

mutant_matt

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stuart H:
<B>A complicated one this

With regards to the incident which Matt has posted details of, I have seen video which told a slight different story to the chain of events published. However, every story has two sides. [/quote]

Stuart, is it possible to post on this BBS what the video shows took place then - I and I'm sure many others would be very interested in the "other side" of the story?

One other point, as long as it's done safely and there is genuine congestion in Lanes 2 & 3 with Lane 1 empty, would you/your fellow officers turn a blind eye to someone using this "technique" to make progress?

Cheers,

Matt.

Pete Croney

The fact remains that lane discipline in this country is diabolical.

Now if people started getting tickets for sitting in lanes 2 or 3...

The biggest problem is old drivers who sit in lane 2. They effectively reduce a 3 lane motorway to 1 lane, that being lane 3. The stream of freight up their chuff (not allowed in lane 3) then bunches up and you have a major accident waiting to happen.

We must be the only country in the world where you pass your driving test without ever having driven on a motorway.

robski

It doesnt just happen on motorways dont forget.

The other day. A14 was surprisingly quiet (only road to felixstowe freight port).

I accelerated out of slip road on dual, and immediately went to outside lane to overtake slow moving traffic. Then muppet in inside lane moves over to overtake at last minute, overtakes, but ingnores that fact that there is noone else in the inside lane for about 2 miles and just sits there!

robski

Stuart H

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mutant_matt:
<B> Stuart, is it possible to post on this BBS what the video shows took place then - I and I'm sure many others would be very interested in the "other side" of the story?[/quote]

Not possible I'm afraid Matt. When I post on here I do it as an individual who <I>happens</I> to be a traffic officer and drives a scoob. I will not say/post anything which will prejudice my position, nor speak on behalf of any force, or give people access to confidential material.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
<B>One other point, as long as it's done safely and there is genuine congestion in Lanes 2 & 3 with Lane 1 empty, would you/your fellow officers turn a blind eye to someone using this "technique" to make progress?[/quote]

Yes, because its there in black & white in the Highway Code. As I have already said, what will attract the attention of the police is when people take the **** and change lanes every few metres.

Cheers

S



[This message has been edited by Stuart H (edited 19 December 2000).]