4wd Vs Fwd Vs Rwd
23 April 2007, 10:20 PM
#1
4wd Vs Fwd Vs Rwd
I keep reading "Oh as its fwd it handles so much better than a scoob!". Am i missing something here? I've owned several fwd cars and none of them handle as well as my scoob does, definately none could have come out of a corner at such high speed under acceleration?
Why do people compare fwd/rwd to 4wd surely 4wd is better all round?
Why do people compare fwd/rwd to 4wd surely 4wd is better all round?
23 April 2007, 10:48 PM
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I keep reading "Oh as its fwd it handles so much better than a scoob!". Am i missing something here? I've owned several fwd cars and none of them handle as well as my scoob does, definately none could have come out of a corner at such high speed under acceleration?
Why do people compare fwd/rwd to 4wd surely 4wd is better all round?
Why do people compare fwd/rwd to 4wd surely 4wd is better all round?
xr3i
xr2i
cavalier gsi 2000
vectra st200
bmw 325i E36
bmw 328i sport E36
subaru
Out of all them that could stick with the scoob through handling would be the cavi gsi 2000, it was lowered 60mm and 17" alloys, the car seemed as the car didnt have a handling limit, but the standard brakes didnt like it much.The BMW was good in the dry and good launch but in the wet always puts you on edge, but im slowly getting to know how far to go with the scoob, but found it sketchy in the wet.
23 April 2007, 10:52 PM
#3
There are better handling cars out than a Scooby, most of them FWD's. I'm going by word of mouth, not personal experience. For example, Pug 205 and Renault Clio Williams. They may be better handling, but not as much grip. Coming out of a corner at high speeds, is down to the 4WD grip. Incidently, I've not had a better handling car than my Scoobs.
23 April 2007, 11:11 PM
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My 106 Gti was better at handling than my scoob. the 106 GTi was regarded as one of the best handling cars that was available at the time (according to Clarkson and a few others). It was no so good because it was fwd, it was down to a combination of a stiff good setup and light weight.
Most fwd cars are small and light, and therefore have a better starting point than a big heavy family saloon.
Most fwd cars are small and light, and therefore have a better starting point than a big heavy family saloon.
23 April 2007, 11:35 PM
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when i went round corners at a fair pace in my astra gsi you had to close ya eyes and hope for the best that was lowered 35 mill on koni's.
on the other had my cav gsi 2000 went round corners at scary speeds lower 35 mill on bilstens .. loved this car
then came the RA nothing to say on that 
on the other had my cav gsi 2000 went round corners at scary speeds lower 35 mill on bilstens .. loved this car
then came the RA nothing to say on that
23 April 2007, 11:50 PM
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when i went round corners at a fair pace in my astra gsi you had to close ya eyes and hope for the best that was lowered 35 mill on koni's.
on the other had my cav gsi 2000 went round corners at scary speeds lower 35 mill on bilstens .. loved this car
then came the RA nothing to say on that
on the other had my cav gsi 2000 went round corners at scary speeds lower 35 mill on bilstens .. loved this car
then came the RA nothing to say on that
i definatly would but its hard to find a decent one nowa days
24 April 2007, 08:16 AM
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Don't get handling confused with roadholding/grip/traction.
A scoob will pi55 all over an MX5, straights and corners, however the MX5 HANDLES far better than a scoob.
My RWD wesite will pi55 over most scoobs, however a RWD 318 bmw won't. There's just too many different variables to consider.
There's no blanket X is best. It depends on the application. A scoob will never be the last word in handling finesse, however what it is good at is traction and applying that traction in adverse weather conditions and poor road surfaces.
A scoob will pi55 all over an MX5, straights and corners, however the MX5 HANDLES far better than a scoob.
My RWD wesite will pi55 over most scoobs, however a RWD 318 bmw won't. There's just too many different variables to consider.
There's no blanket X is best. It depends on the application. A scoob will never be the last word in handling finesse, however what it is good at is traction and applying that traction in adverse weather conditions and poor road surfaces.
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24 April 2007, 08:39 AM
#8
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with the risk of looking like an absolute ****, the best handling car i have evey had was a rover 800 vitesse sport!!!!
the steering was so precise, it amazed me..... *takes cover*
the steering was so precise, it amazed me..... *takes cover
*
24 April 2007, 09:28 AM
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Don't get handling confused with roadholding/grip/traction.
A scoob will pi55 all over an MX5, straights and corners, however the MX5 HANDLES far better than a scoob.
My RWD wesite will pi55 over most scoobs, however a RWD 318 bmw won't. There's just too many different variables to consider.
There's no blanket X is best. It depends on the application. A scoob will never be the last word in handling finesse, however what it is good at is traction and applying that traction in adverse weather conditions and poor road surfaces.
A scoob will pi55 all over an MX5, straights and corners, however the MX5 HANDLES far better than a scoob.
My RWD wesite will pi55 over most scoobs, however a RWD 318 bmw won't. There's just too many different variables to consider.
There's no blanket X is best. It depends on the application. A scoob will never be the last word in handling finesse, however what it is good at is traction and applying that traction in adverse weather conditions and poor road surfaces.
:iagree: with Drac - 4WD great in straight lines, RWD for handling in the corners (depending what the car is obviously). FWD rarely the best.
24 April 2007, 09:42 AM
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funny you say that ive alway got an eye open for a cav gsi/turbo but with 500(turbos) left on the DVLA reg the chance off finding a mint 1 is slim to none and the gsi is going the same way
soft spon for the c20xe'd vauxhallsold cav
[img=http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/23/pict0003kg8.th.jpg]
[img=http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7212/pict0004bi5.th.jpg]
[img=http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7342/pict0019fk3.th.jpg]
Last edited by 92typeRA; 24 April 2007 at 09:47 AM.
24 April 2007, 09:51 AM
#12
Dead right........Scoobs do not "handle" well, but have loads of grip. How many "racing" cars are RWD? Probably all of them.
I once remember reading how one of the finest handling FWD cars was a ..........Peugeot 309Gti.
Although Audi were the cause of the change to rules in Touring Cars due to the fact that if the races were anything other than bone dry, they annihalated everything with their 4WD.
Aaaah shiiiiiiit........I've just given Audilover some fuel
I once remember reading how one of the finest handling FWD cars was a ..........Peugeot 309Gti.
Although Audi were the cause of the change to rules in Touring Cars due to the fact that if the races were anything other than bone dry, they annihalated everything with their 4WD.
Aaaah shiiiiiiit........I've just given Audilover some fuel
24 April 2007, 09:52 AM
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Well to me handling is all about the car telling the driving in plenty of time its gonna lose it..so in effect gives the driver time to recover, a rwd drive will do this the best hence why cars like the lotus elise etc are notorious for great handling, this doesnt of course mean its the quickest, a scoobs handling i do think is just way too hard for most of us average drivers to tell the signs and react quick enough to control the beast...lets face it rally drivers dont have this problem, oddly they are brilliant drivers unlike us.
24 April 2007, 10:02 AM
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Handling is the cars ability to go round corners quickly but also have the ability to tell the driver whats going on, be easily correctable and what they bahave like to small steering and throttle inputs. Handling is not about how quicklly a car will go round a corner. And to say that scoobies and evo's dont handle is twoddle, to say this YOURS must have been damaged and badly repaired! Scoobies are one of the easiest cars to drive quicklly, theyre feedback is great and you know all the time exactly what all four wheels are doing.
A TVR will go round a corner quicker, but if it goes wrong, it goes wrong a lot quicker, is less correctable and gives you less notice. TVR's handle badly! BMW M3's are far more controllable and HANDLE a lot better.
just my $0.02
A TVR will go round a corner quicker, but if it goes wrong, it goes wrong a lot quicker, is less correctable and gives you less notice. TVR's handle badly! BMW M3's are far more controllable and HANDLE a lot better.
just my $0.02
24 April 2007, 10:16 AM
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...and on the rack track, the roads are smooth, you brake in a straight line, you go round corner, apply power smoothly, accelerate other side. RWD = GREAT!
In the real world, you bump, twist, go round one corner, Slam on anchors for Miss Daisy, overtake, slow down for horse, go round another corner, go to fast, panic, bit on the brakes, somehow make it round and continue on accelerating.
On these sort of b-roads and on small a-roads, the 4wd scoobies and evo's combination of grip, traction, idiot proof handling and mid range turbo torque punch equates to nothing being able to touch them, inc dare i say it M3's, Civic Type-R's, Seats Cupra's, Ferrari's (given we are all normal drivers in this world and that michael schumacher doesnt come up behing you in his ferrari panda arbarth). The only thing im concerned about is those 'serious' Porsches and little fly in oitment exige's and elises.
In the real world, you bump, twist, go round one corner, Slam on anchors for Miss Daisy, overtake, slow down for horse, go round another corner, go to fast, panic, bit on the brakes, somehow make it round and continue on accelerating.
On these sort of b-roads and on small a-roads, the 4wd scoobies and evo's combination of grip, traction, idiot proof handling and mid range turbo torque punch equates to nothing being able to touch them, inc dare i say it M3's, Civic Type-R's, Seats Cupra's, Ferrari's (given we are all normal drivers in this world and that michael schumacher doesnt come up behing you in his ferrari panda arbarth). The only thing im concerned about is those 'serious' Porsches and little fly in oitment exige's and elises.
24 April 2007, 10:22 AM
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So a Skyline would mean perfection!
RWD most of the time, so less drivetrain loss, then multi wheel drive when it needs it
I'v had a lot of scoobs, an Evo, an S2000 and in ITR so a very diverse range of cars.
They are all great - in different ways.
RWD takes the most skill. AWD is clearly better in the wet. FWD is fun but very forgiving.
I think for road use its AWD every time for me. It wouldnt excite me much on a track though - id sooner have RWD in that case.
As a final note, the ITR I had gripped and handles better than all my scoobs bar the STi 5.
RWD most of the time, so less drivetrain loss, then multi wheel drive when it needs it
I'v had a lot of scoobs, an Evo, an S2000 and in ITR so a very diverse range of cars.
They are all great - in different ways.
RWD takes the most skill. AWD is clearly better in the wet. FWD is fun but very forgiving.
I think for road use its AWD every time for me. It wouldnt excite me much on a track though - id sooner have RWD in that case.
As a final note, the ITR I had gripped and handles better than all my scoobs bar the STi 5.
24 April 2007, 10:24 AM
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Totally agree.
...and on the rack track, the roads are smooth, you brake in a straight line, you go round corner, apply power smoothly, accelerate other side. RWD = GREAT!
In the real world, you bump, twist, go round one corner, Slam on anchors for Miss Daisy, overtake, slow down for horse, go round another corner, go to fast, panic, bit on the brakes, somehow make it round and continue on accelerating.
On these sort of b-roads and on small a-roads, the 4wd scoobies and evo's combination of grip, traction, idiot proof handling and mid range turbo torque punch equates to nothing being able to touch them, inc dare i say it M3's, Civic Type-R's, Seats Cupra's, Ferrari's (given we are all normal drivers in this world and that michael schumacher doesnt come up behing you in his ferrari panda arbarth). The only thing im concerned about is those 'serious' Porsches and little fly in oitment exige's and elises.
In the real world, you bump, twist, go round one corner, Slam on anchors for Miss Daisy, overtake, slow down for horse, go round another corner, go to fast, panic, bit on the brakes, somehow make it round and continue on accelerating.
On these sort of b-roads and on small a-roads, the 4wd scoobies and evo's combination of grip, traction, idiot proof handling and mid range turbo torque punch equates to nothing being able to touch them, inc dare i say it M3's, Civic Type-R's, Seats Cupra's, Ferrari's (given we are all normal drivers in this world and that michael schumacher doesnt come up behing you in his ferrari panda arbarth). The only thing im concerned about is those 'serious' Porsches and little fly in oitment exige's and elises.
24 April 2007, 10:27 AM
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This hits the nail on the head.
The Subaru is blessed with good traction as it drives all of its wheels.
When you apply some throttle you are asking the tyre to push you forward on the road. This uses up some of the tyres potential grip, meaning there is less available to use for getting the car around a corner.
If you drive one axle and are cornering hard enough and have sufficient power, you will overcome the grip available at that axle. In a FWD car you will understeer (nose pushing wide), in a RWD car it will oversteer (nose tucking in, back trying to overtake front).
Understeer is considered safer but leaves you with less options and can be frustrating if you can drive. Oversteer is more fun but can catch the unwary out, leading to a spin.
An AWD car shares the traction burden over all of its wheels, which is why you can bury the throttle of a scooby from the apex to the exit of a bend and get away with things you can't in FWD/RWD. In a race situation, exiting a bend onto a long straight with a 2mph advantage means you get to keep that advantage all the way down the straight, which will win you places.
Handling however is how the car reacts at the limit of grip. If you have immense grip or roadholoding but the car spits you off the road the moment you breach the limit of grip, you will never have the confidence to push it to the edge.
Conversely, if there is modest grip but benign behaviour on the limit (MX5) then you can play at the grip limit all day and exploit everything the car has to offer (you know you are there from steering feedback and your own personal g-meter).
There are so many versions of the Impreza its difficult to generalise, but the stock road settings for the early turbo seem to give mild understeer at entry and some lift off oversteer in the limit, but I wouldn't say it handled badly, and the steering seems reasonably informative.
The suspension can be setup to suit a driving style and give whatever trait you enjoy. A decent alignment job and correct tyre pressures are the first step.
The Subaru is blessed with good traction as it drives all of its wheels.
When you apply some throttle you are asking the tyre to push you forward on the road. This uses up some of the tyres potential grip, meaning there is less available to use for getting the car around a corner.
If you drive one axle and are cornering hard enough and have sufficient power, you will overcome the grip available at that axle. In a FWD car you will understeer (nose pushing wide), in a RWD car it will oversteer (nose tucking in, back trying to overtake front).
Understeer is considered safer but leaves you with less options and can be frustrating if you can drive. Oversteer is more fun but can catch the unwary out, leading to a spin.
An AWD car shares the traction burden over all of its wheels, which is why you can bury the throttle of a scooby from the apex to the exit of a bend and get away with things you can't in FWD/RWD. In a race situation, exiting a bend onto a long straight with a 2mph advantage means you get to keep that advantage all the way down the straight, which will win you places.
Handling however is how the car reacts at the limit of grip. If you have immense grip or roadholoding but the car spits you off the road the moment you breach the limit of grip, you will never have the confidence to push it to the edge.
Conversely, if there is modest grip but benign behaviour on the limit (MX5) then you can play at the grip limit all day and exploit everything the car has to offer (you know you are there from steering feedback and your own personal g-meter).
There are so many versions of the Impreza its difficult to generalise, but the stock road settings for the early turbo seem to give mild understeer at entry and some lift off oversteer in the limit, but I wouldn't say it handled badly, and the steering seems reasonably informative.
The suspension can be setup to suit a driving style and give whatever trait you enjoy. A decent alignment job and correct tyre pressures are the first step.
24 April 2007, 10:33 AM
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[quote=Dark Blue Mark;6863713]So a Skyline would mean perfection!
quote]
i personally think GTR's are to big, to heavy and to cumbersome. Even though they have their intelligent 4WD i still think their advantage is mainly track biased. There's a lot of junk in that trunk!
I personally think that the newage scooby is far to heavy (not inc spec-c) which affects its 'chuckability' and under braking. I love mine, but i would love it more if it weighed 200kg less
quote]
i personally think GTR's are to big, to heavy and to cumbersome. Even though they have their intelligent 4WD i still think their advantage is mainly track biased. There's a lot of junk in that trunk!
I personally think that the newage scooby is far to heavy (not inc spec-c) which affects its 'chuckability' and under braking. I love mine, but i would love it more if it weighed 200kg less
24 April 2007, 11:19 AM
#20
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Is that in theory? They might be heavy, but if you drive one they feel very nimble indeed. The weight seems to make no odds, felt like being in a time machine - I tried a stock 33 GTR.
Sometimes think the Evo is a touch heavy.
Latest trend in WRC cars is going smaller, maybe why Subaru and Mitsubishi are having a re think.
Sometimes think the Evo is a touch heavy.
Latest trend in WRC cars is going smaller, maybe why Subaru and Mitsubishi are having a re think.
24 April 2007, 11:22 AM
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24 April 2007, 11:40 AM
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The best handling car ever is a FWD hatch.
106GTI.
My old Focus RS handled better than my current Scoob (on smooth roads). From A to B though the Impreza is obviously faster.
106GTI.
My old Focus RS handled better than my current Scoob (on smooth roads). From A to B though the Impreza is obviously faster.
24 April 2007, 12:23 PM
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.As above, Scoobs are far from the ultimate in handling finesse, but they're very functional in swallowing bends due to their grip ! In any case, rwd will generally give better handling than fwd, short of a Teg.
24 April 2007, 12:32 PM
#25
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Agree, my RS Focus was awesome handling, did get slight torque steer now and again, but that was fun. One of the best handling cars i`ve had was my old E30 Left hand drive M3, fantastic car, rev and rev....
24 April 2007, 12:38 PM
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DC2 Integra type R, It's just insane what you can do to that car. I think thats probably the best balance of both handling and grip your ever going to see in a fwd car.
It handles better than my scooby anyday! There is just something about that car that gives you ***** of steel when your on a tight twisty curcit. It just feels as tho you cant possibly **** up any corner.
A 106 GTI cannot match the Teg...
It handles better than my scooby anyday! There is just something about that car that gives you ***** of steel when your on a tight twisty curcit. It just feels as tho you cant possibly **** up any corner.
A 106 GTI cannot match the Teg...
24 April 2007, 12:48 PM
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...and on the rack track, the roads are smooth, you brake in a straight line, you go round corner, apply power smoothly, accelerate other side. RWD = GREAT!
In the real world, you bump, twist, go round one corner, Slam on anchors for Miss Daisy, overtake, slow down for horse, go round another corner, go to fast, panic, bit on the brakes, somehow make it round and continue on accelerating.
On these sort of b-roads and on small a-roads, the 4wd scoobies and evo's combination of grip, traction, idiot proof handling and mid range turbo torque punch equates to nothing being able to touch them, inc dare i say it M3's, Civic Type-R's, Seats Cupra's, Ferrari's (given we are all normal drivers in this world and that michael schumacher doesnt come up behing you in his ferrari panda arbarth). The only thing im concerned about is those 'serious' Porsches and little fly in oitment exige's and elises.
In the real world, you bump, twist, go round one corner, Slam on anchors for Miss Daisy, overtake, slow down for horse, go round another corner, go to fast, panic, bit on the brakes, somehow make it round and continue on accelerating.
On these sort of b-roads and on small a-roads, the 4wd scoobies and evo's combination of grip, traction, idiot proof handling and mid range turbo torque punch equates to nothing being able to touch them, inc dare i say it M3's, Civic Type-R's, Seats Cupra's, Ferrari's (given we are all normal drivers in this world and that michael schumacher doesnt come up behing you in his ferrari panda arbarth). The only thing im concerned about is those 'serious' Porsches and little fly in oitment exige's and elises.
24 April 2007, 12:57 PM
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To be fair I was oversimplifying to keep the answer short.
Some cars handle better than others, and its not always due to the RWD/FWD/AWD situation.
However, generally speaking a RWD is going to handle better on the twisties, but there's so much more to it than just which wheels are putting the power down.
Some cars handle better than others, and its not always due to the RWD/FWD/AWD situation.
However, generally speaking a RWD is going to handle better on the twisties, but there's so much more to it than just which wheels are putting the power down.
24 April 2007, 01:07 PM
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Never driven a 997, but just because it's a Porsche doesn't mean it can out handle a 106GTI.
Remember Handling isn't just about grip, acceleration, braking. It's about how a car feels at and above the limits. It's about what the car tells you, through the steering wheel and seat. It's also about how maneuverable and adjustable it is and how it reacts to your imputs.
Remember Handling isn't just about grip, acceleration, braking. It's about how a car feels at and above the limits. It's about what the car tells you, through the steering wheel and seat. It's also about how maneuverable and adjustable it is and how it reacts to your imputs.