Now try and tell me the new STI isnt better value for money than the P1 ever was
12 December 2001, 12:22 PM
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There you go .New STI in Autocar the right price at £27495.
Subaru shafted all previous owners of one off specials but at last they get a decent car at the right price.
Subaru shafted all previous owners of one off specials but at last they get a decent car at the right price.
12 December 2001, 01:08 PM
#4
Aaron, I think most people would agree that the P1, new was over priced. When Subaru set the price of the P1, demand for the impreza was very high, residuals on 2nd hand cars were also extremely good. I suspect that most of the people who put deposits on the P1 believed that it too would have good second hand values (me included).
However, lets not kid ourselves the current market is totally different, most of the world is now in recession. So Subaru have to set a more realistic price for the new STI.
That said, I think you'll find that the price quoted doesn't include any increase in power over the 264 bhp. so it is still not a match for the P1 until Prodrive come up with a performance package.
[Edited by RogerE - 12/12/2001 1:09:39 PM]
However, lets not kid ourselves the current market is totally different, most of the world is now in recession. So Subaru have to set a more realistic price for the new STI.
That said, I think you'll find that the price quoted doesn't include any increase in power over the 264 bhp. so it is still not a match for the P1 until Prodrive come up with a performance package.
[Edited by RogerE - 12/12/2001 1:09:39 PM]
12 December 2001, 02:11 PM
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But it's not all about Power Roger. The new STi presumably handles better (cos the MY01 handles better than the <MY01 models), and will stop better. Not to mention some of the other nice touches, I think an new STi will give a standard P1 a very good run for it's money on the road and on the track (IMHO 
)
Matt
)Matt
12 December 2001, 02:36 PM
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But it`s still....fugly; sorry no contest. For me, the combined looks and performance of the P1 overcome the STI even IF it does handle better ...... which is one dangerous place to go !
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12 December 2001, 02:44 PM
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Subaru havent shafted me at all, im quite happy with the deal i got. I shouldnt think for a moment that the uk sti will have the same performance and goodies as the jap spec one. Does this uk sti have 280 bhp???????????
ps. ive heard a rumour that there will be new optional extras for new shape cars, a tartan dash kit, knitting needle holders and extra large speedo and rev guages
ps. ive heard a rumour that there will be new optional extras for new shape cars, a tartan dash kit, knitting needle holders and extra large speedo and rev guages
12 December 2001, 03:52 PM
#11
Matt, yes you're right, its not all about power. But one of the reports in the car mags still rates the P1 as the ultimate Impreza with the RB5 a close second over the WRX and STI7 (I forget which mag the comparison was in).
Another point to remeber is by the time the first UK STIs hit the road, the P1 will be almost two years old (I believe the first P1 deliveries were in april 2000).
Another point to remeber is by the time the first UK STIs hit the road, the P1 will be almost two years old (I believe the first P1 deliveries were in april 2000).
12 December 2001, 05:34 PM
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Chaps,
Remember that I'm a fan of the MY00 (owning one) and it pains me to say that I think the new WRX is actually a "better" (but slower) car having driven one and been in a few others. I think it depends on what you are after of course. I always think of a car not as what it is, but how much you have to spend to make it what it can be, as you want it (if that makes sense).
I think that the MY00's are better in that you can spend less to make them brilliant. I think you've got to spend more on the MY01 to make them brilliant but then I think that the MY01 can be taken a lot further, and be made to make the MY00 look (and drive) very dated. Just my opinion of course.
jamesa
IMHO ( ) the new WRX out handles the MY00/P1 in standard trim (and I've got one). Where the WRX falls down is power and (as standard) looks. Both of these (IMHO) have been addressed with the UK STi (particularly the Prodrive style one but I'd still put Morrettes on it and probaly different suspension). But the looks are a very subjective thing - much more so (I think) than people's opinion of the performance.
scoobynutta555
You forgot the optional pipe and slippers m8
RogerE
But as we all know, you shouldn't read too much into what the mags tell us - EVO slated the handling of the new WRX in it's group test doing the EPR thing and then later on found out that the geometry was way out. They didn't think to re-assess it and give it a newer (fairer) EPR rating. Also, making a statement like "this is the ultimate" impreza is nearly meaningless without some sort of context. To a track day fan, the Jap models are better, to a sales rep who does 100,000 miles a year, the softer sprung UK models are probably best, to someone who wants the most "special", the 22B is probably the best etc. etc. etc. About the P1's, I don't know anyone who got theirs before Septemebr 2000 but that's not really that important is it?
The (interesting) debate continues.....
Matt
Edited 'cos I got the EPR and ERP of Evo Performance Rating the wrong way round - Duh!!!
[Edited by mutant_matt - 12/12/2001 5:36:44 PM]
Remember that I'm a fan of the MY00 (owning one) and it pains me to say that I think the new WRX is actually a "better" (but slower) car having driven one and been in a few others. I think it depends on what you are after of course. I always think of a car not as what it is, but how much you have to spend to make it what it can be, as you want it (if that makes sense).
I think that the MY00's are better in that you can spend less to make them brilliant. I think you've got to spend more on the MY01 to make them brilliant but then I think that the MY01 can be taken a lot further, and be made to make the MY00 look (and drive) very dated. Just my opinion of course.
jamesa
IMHO (
) the new WRX out handles the MY00/P1 in standard trim (and I've got one). Where the WRX falls down is power and (as standard) looks. Both of these (IMHO) have been addressed with the UK STi (particularly the Prodrive style one but I'd still put Morrettes on it and probaly different suspension). But the looks are a very subjective thing - much more so (I think) than people's opinion of the performance.scoobynutta555
You forgot the optional pipe and slippers m8
RogerE
But as we all know, you shouldn't read too much into what the mags tell us - EVO slated the handling of the new WRX in it's group test doing the EPR thing and then later on found out that the geometry was way out. They didn't think to re-assess it and give it a newer (fairer) EPR rating. Also, making a statement like "this is the ultimate" impreza is nearly meaningless without some sort of context. To a track day fan, the Jap models are better, to a sales rep who does 100,000 miles a year, the softer sprung UK models are probably best, to someone who wants the most "special", the 22B is probably the best etc. etc. etc. About the P1's, I don't know anyone who got theirs before Septemebr 2000 but that's not really that important is it?
The (interesting) debate continues.....
Matt
Edited 'cos I got the EPR and ERP of Evo Performance Rating the wrong way round - Duh!!!
[Edited by mutant_matt - 12/12/2001 5:36:44 PM]
12 December 2001, 05:42 PM
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Arron - yup the UK STi 7 is much better value, but not as powerful as the P1, once you've PPP'd (assuming they ever make one) the STi 7 you'll be paying 29K + , but yup thats still a good 2.5K cheaper than a P1 was.. so much better value to the buyer...
But we do have to understand that a lot more work went into the P1, and there was only 1000 made, whereas the Euro STi will sell 3K plus units and the changes made in the Europe are only body kit for the special edition.. So R&D costs are considerably less.
Ultimately the P1 was awesome to drive, but suffered the standard subaru problems with paint work and rattles, like my MY'00 UK Turbo did... but the suspension and engine set-up prodrive came up with for the P1 was brilliant, I still miss mine (enjoying it Jimbob2?).
The MY'01's handling is definitely better than the P1 was, especially when you add 18" wheels and the Prodrive spring kit (or standard elbach kit from peeps like TSL). But does lack a bit of power, but not as much as some people seem to think!
Alex
[Edited by DrEvil - 12/12/2001 6:19:27 PM]
But we do have to understand that a lot more work went into the P1, and there was only 1000 made, whereas the Euro STi will sell 3K plus units and the changes made in the Europe are only body kit for the special edition.. So R&D costs are considerably less.
Ultimately the P1 was awesome to drive, but suffered the standard subaru problems with paint work and rattles, like my MY'00 UK Turbo did... but the suspension and engine set-up prodrive came up with for the P1 was brilliant, I still miss mine (enjoying it Jimbob2?).
The MY'01's handling is definitely better than the P1 was, especially when you add 18" wheels and the Prodrive spring kit (or standard elbach kit from peeps like TSL). But does lack a bit of power, but not as much as some people seem to think!
Alex
[Edited by DrEvil - 12/12/2001 6:19:27 PM]
12 December 2001, 07:24 PM
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Just for youre interest my P1 only made 260 real bhp at Powerstation on super with millers etc but still catted at the time.
I guarantee that the engine in the P1 is exactly the same as the new WRX STI only a hunch tho eh ...so no need for a PPP.
Face it its a better car .
At that price with 18" wheels sod it I might even buy one
I guarantee that the engine in the P1 is exactly the same as the new WRX STI only a hunch tho eh ...so no need for a PPP.
Face it its a better car .
At that price with 18" wheels sod it I might even buy one
12 December 2001, 07:41 PM
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The STi7 has an all new engine, its vvc to start with which the P1 isnt, its more uprated and hopefully should also have a Prodrive Performance Pack available for a power hike in the future
hmmm would put more but food calls
Tony
hmmm would put more but food calls
Tony
12 December 2001, 09:59 PM
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UK STi 7 only has a 2% higher PWR than MY00 on SUL vs NUL. 265PS/1470kg vs 218PS/1235kg.
http://www.subaru.co.uk/sti/specs.htm if you don't believe it is quite that lardy and that the 265 "bhp" is actually PS. If they can only get 261 bhp out of it what does that suggest about its modding potential - I'm sure they would have liked to have had the magic 276 bhp/280PS?
In other words no real world difference? Make this the £21k standard car and I'd be interested. Must be the slowest STi ever? Has there ever been an STi which cannot crack 0-60 in <5s?
And yes, I am bothered about straight line speed, that's why I bought a Scooby - at £16K EU import nothing touched it for this even though I discovered the traction was even more impressive.
The VVC will just be a pain in the *** when modding requiring a more complex ECU and map?
Certainly not selling my lightly modded MY00 in a hurry.
[Edited by john banks - 12/12/2001 10:15:59 PM]
http://www.subaru.co.uk/sti/specs.htm if you don't believe it is quite that lardy and that the 265 "bhp" is actually PS. If they can only get 261 bhp out of it what does that suggest about its modding potential - I'm sure they would have liked to have had the magic 276 bhp/280PS?
In other words no real world difference? Make this the £21k standard car and I'd be interested. Must be the slowest STi ever? Has there ever been an STi which cannot crack 0-60 in <5s?
And yes, I am bothered about straight line speed, that's why I bought a Scooby - at £16K EU import nothing touched it for this even though I discovered the traction was even more impressive.
The VVC will just be a pain in the *** when modding requiring a more complex ECU and map?
Certainly not selling my lightly modded MY00 in a hurry.
[Edited by john banks - 12/12/2001 10:15:59 PM]
13 December 2001, 09:05 AM
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The new STi7 for the European market only suffers from the same problems as the new WRX, a restrictive exhaust system. The Japanese 280PS car is essentially the same without the poor gas flow. Just see what Scoobysport can do with a MY01 by replacing the exhaust. All your power problems gone. It is now widely accepted that the MY01 is a far better base car to build a bespoke vehicle around. The results of modifications on a MY01 vs MY00 are far more impressive. Handling enhancements are far superior due to the hugely improved rigidity and strength of the chassis. It reall boils down to a matter of taste. An STi is a special car. You can always take a MY01 from Holland and spend £6k turning it into a superb car (no need to make ANY cosmetic changes at all) if you want beauty buy something else this is a drivers car not a hairdressers. If you want to turn a WRX into an STi you can't. End of story. You might end up with a car that is quicker point to point for less money though. I think the MY01 is a superior car in most respects to the MY00 but I have a late MY00 myself. Why? Because this is the car I grew up in love with. It's a little piece of history and I love it. I may well be forced to buy an STi if I can use a Danish friend to good effect (How Cheap!!!) but I won't be getting rid of my MY00. It's a living legend!
13 December 2001, 09:16 AM
#19
Guys,
The point I was trying to make about the P1 price is that market conditions were totally different when Subaru set the price of the P1. I bet that even the M3 would have been more had it been released at the same time as the P1.
So how can we make a comparison between the P1 and the STI7?
Matt
I know we shouldn’t read too much into what the mags tell us but they do provide a semi objective comparison:EVO August 2001 contains a comparison of UK300 v STI v RB5 v P1. The STI was an import with 276 bhp
“In many respects the new models are better cars – particularly in terms of refinement and quality. But when it comes to the driving experience, the old cars still hold the aces”
Maybe Chins would like to contribute as I believe he has owned an RB5, P1, UK300 and probably has an STI on order.
The point I was trying to make about the P1 price is that market conditions were totally different when Subaru set the price of the P1. I bet that even the M3 would have been more had it been released at the same time as the P1.
So how can we make a comparison between the P1 and the STI7?
Matt
I know we shouldn’t read too much into what the mags tell us but they do provide a semi objective comparison:EVO August 2001 contains a comparison of UK300 v STI v RB5 v P1. The STI was an import with 276 bhp
“In many respects the new models are better cars – particularly in terms of refinement and quality. But when it comes to the driving experience, the old cars still hold the aces”
Maybe Chins would like to contribute as I believe he has owned an RB5, P1, UK300 and probably has an STI on order.
13 December 2001, 09:21 AM
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Vate has hit the nail on the head
The UK WRX is strangled by the exhaust (emissions and noise levels are a lot stricter than they were back in the P1's days) and a free flowing number releases the beast!!!
I can imagine a PPP'd and then de-catted UK STI 7 is going to do some serious stink. If it can improve the car as much as a PPP did my MY01 WRX then its going to be a fantastic buy!!!
Excellent value for money.
Expect to see P1 prices drop through the floor at the dealers when the STI 7 is released!!!!
Jza
The UK WRX is strangled by the exhaust (emissions and noise levels are a lot stricter than they were back in the P1's days) and a free flowing number releases the beast!!!
I can imagine a PPP'd and then de-catted UK STI 7 is going to do some serious stink. If it can improve the car as much as a PPP did my MY01 WRX then its going to be a fantastic buy!!!
Excellent value for money.
Expect to see P1 prices drop through the floor at the dealers when the STI 7 is released!!!!
Jza
13 December 2001, 09:40 AM
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and if you take change the dp and exhaust on a P1 does the same not happen, as they too come with those nasty restrictive cats?
I seem to remember 300+bhp on scooby with scoobysport system.
I seem to remember 300+bhp on scooby with scoobysport system.
13 December 2001, 10:23 AM
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Medders, the P1 met (or, more accurately, sneaked through) the less restrictive emissions test as it managed to be classed as a supercar...
The STI meets standard Euro emissions and is being throttled. The PPP will no doubt address this. I reckon it'll go like snot off a stick, but that's just a gut feeling...
The STI meets standard Euro emissions and is being throttled. The PPP will no doubt address this. I reckon it'll go like snot off a stick, but that's just a gut feeling...
13 December 2001, 11:26 AM
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RogerE - agreed the economic situation is different now, and residuals aren't as high.. but also, more engine based work was done on the P1 for a limit run of 1000, which meant more R&D needed to be re-couped.
In hind site, I don't think the P1 suffered anymore than my MY'00 UK Turbo did, same rattles, paint issues... but ultimately a much better set-up and of course a lot more power in the P1.
My MY'01 is definitely more competant on the road than the P1 was, I will definitely get the new STi when I can afford to, you get so much for your money, unfortunately the 18" alloys are still a dealer fit option, but hey, you get the 6 speed box, brembo brakes, stronger VVC engine and a few other improvements over the WRX for only 4.5K more.. gets my vote
Alex
[Edited by DrEvil - 12/13/2001 1:49:12 PM]
In hind site, I don't think the P1 suffered anymore than my MY'00 UK Turbo did, same rattles, paint issues... but ultimately a much better set-up and of course a lot more power in the P1.
My MY'01 is definitely more competant on the road than the P1 was, I will definitely get the new STi when I can afford to, you get so much for your money, unfortunately the 18" alloys are still a dealer fit option, but hey, you get the 6 speed box, brembo brakes, stronger VVC engine and a few other improvements over the WRX for only 4.5K more.. gets my vote
Alex
[Edited by DrEvil - 12/13/2001 1:49:12 PM]
13 December 2001, 11:32 AM
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DrEvil,
Very much enjoying the car - it now has the full SS system on - pushing out around 300BHP - oh, and I upgraded to the 18" Prodrive wheels and Prodrive/Alcon brakes - how on earth did you cope with the standard ones?
Jimbob2
Very much enjoying the car - it now has the full SS system on - pushing out around 300BHP - oh, and I upgraded to the 18" Prodrive wheels and Prodrive/Alcon brakes - how on earth did you cope with the standard ones?
Jimbob2
13 December 2001, 11:33 AM
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Regarding the recovery of R&D costs... I like where you are coming from but Porsche reputedly lost masses of money on every 959 they sold and McLaren curtailed the F1 production because they were losing money even at £625k a pop!
#1 It's supply and demand that sets the price.
#2 err that's it!
The high price of the P1 contributed to the low initial demand. Now that used prices have dropped you can see how much more demand there is (on this bbs) for cherished used ones!
PS. Incidently I just read recently our friend Mr.Richards of Prodrive was heavily involved with the 959 rally entries...
[Edited by Stephen Read - 12/13/2001 11:36:12 AM]
#1 It's supply and demand that sets the price.
#2 err that's it!
The high price of the P1 contributed to the low initial demand. Now that used prices have dropped you can see how much more demand there is (on this bbs) for cherished used ones!
PS. Incidently I just read recently our friend Mr.Richards of Prodrive was heavily involved with the 959 rally entries...
[Edited by Stephen Read - 12/13/2001 11:36:12 AM]
13 December 2001, 12:05 PM
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medders: It's all to do with noise (& hence exhaust) restrictions.
From http://www.iwoc.co.uk/p1b.html:
Keith Hadley the Group Homologation Manager at International Motors spent nearly 6 months in total obtaining the necessary certification for both the 276bhp engine and the different body. The car is homologated under the "Supercar" rules which allowed one extra decibel on the noise tests, but to qualify the car has to be able to accelerate in third gear between two fixed points within a specified time. The P1 qualified, and can now officially be classed as a "Supercar".
From http://www.iwoc.co.uk/p1b.html:
Keith Hadley the Group Homologation Manager at International Motors spent nearly 6 months in total obtaining the necessary certification for both the 276bhp engine and the different body. The car is homologated under the "Supercar" rules which allowed one extra decibel on the noise tests, but to qualify the car has to be able to accelerate in third gear between two fixed points within a specified time. The P1 qualified, and can now officially be classed as a "Supercar".
13 December 2001, 12:18 PM
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I will probably be looking at a PPPd STi to replace my P1 in a couple of years time if it is any good. Remember with PPP the STI will probably cost nearer £28,500 which should be above most P1 values by the time it becomes available. Until then the P1 will offer more for about the same money as the STI.
I agree the new STI will probably be a better starting point ultimately but it will cost lots of dosh just to bring it up to scratch vs the P1 let alone better it.
Face it the P1 has nore bhp more torque and weighs about 200kg less. Power differences aside the new STI is like driving round with 3 adult passengers sat in the back! I'm sure that does wonders for the handling.
P1 will probably remain the better bet on the road. Someone has already referred to the EVO comparison which rated P1 better. Autocar this week in their first drive were (like EVO) quite critical of the lack of low end grunt. They said it was no different to the std WRX below 3500rpm!
I agree the new STI will probably be a better starting point ultimately but it will cost lots of dosh just to bring it up to scratch vs the P1 let alone better it.
Face it the P1 has nore bhp more torque and weighs about 200kg less. Power differences aside the new STI is like driving round with 3 adult passengers sat in the back! I'm sure that does wonders for the handling.
P1 will probably remain the better bet on the road. Someone has already referred to the EVO comparison which rated P1 better. Autocar this week in their first drive were (like EVO) quite critical of the lack of low end grunt. They said it was no different to the std WRX below 3500rpm!
13 December 2001, 12:38 PM
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Sounds to me like everyuone should buy a 22b.
You get the weight and hence less understeer advantage of the older car, but the rigidity of the new car buy having a two door rather tahn a four door. In fact the stiffness of the 22B is better because if of the seem wleded chassis.
Add into this the wider track front and rear (8cm and 10cm) and all of a sudden you have the perfect (and best looking) starting point.
Shame there are only about 380 left to go round.
BTW, the new engine is not completely different. It has revisions to promte tumble in the cylinders to improve charge stratification and therefore increase efficiency and reduce emissions. These make for and eco friendly engine, but power wise these are steps backwards.
Also variable valve timing (not a very complex system on the scoob) is great if it allows for a wild timing up the top but actually it allows for a tamer than normal one at the bottom. The whole point being you need not compromise. If you dont mind having wild cams across the rev range then who cares. People like us rarely worry about fuel consumption and if emissions bothered us we wouldnt be removing our two or three cats.
You get the weight and hence less understeer advantage of the older car, but the rigidity of the new car buy having a two door rather tahn a four door. In fact the stiffness of the 22B is better because if of the seem wleded chassis.
Add into this the wider track front and rear (8cm and 10cm) and all of a sudden you have the perfect (and best looking) starting point.
Shame there are only about 380 left to go round.
BTW, the new engine is not completely different. It has revisions to promte tumble in the cylinders to improve charge stratification and therefore increase efficiency and reduce emissions. These make for and eco friendly engine, but power wise these are steps backwards.
Also variable valve timing (not a very complex system on the scoob) is great if it allows for a wild timing up the top but actually it allows for a tamer than normal one at the bottom. The whole point being you need not compromise. If you dont mind having wild cams across the rev range then who cares. People like us rarely worry about fuel consumption and if emissions bothered us we wouldnt be removing our two or three cats.
