MBK

I will don my flame suit for this one!

Yes it's true the Evo 360 really is 'better' than Litchfield T25!

This month's evo magazine has the car of the year article including the new T25, and in what must be a first for evo they actually don't like a Litchfield product and are clear about why! I have long been sceptical of the evo reviews of Litcho's stuff due to the friendship between the Eds and Iain - but it seems independent journalism really is alive. (Well done to Iain for accepting the feedback with grace tho')

On a recent '5th gear T25 review' thread I dared to suggest the Evo 360 was the better, more affordable, insurable, factory supported car (and where my money would go for the current ultimate 4wd with super car performance). I was told the T25 would eat the Evo 360 alive...oh dear not so it seems, on the road the T25 may be slightly quicker in a straight line but the Evo has the evoness and soon regains the gap in the bends.

Now I am a confirmed Scooby fan and patron of Powerstations fine services but even I can see 44k+ for an Impreza (they forgot to add the price of the brakes and other suspension goodies on the car in the article!) is just too much, and with Evo 360's realistically available for closer to 30K this is much more affordable for most people.

And as for the UK 06 Impreza's - they made it into the must try harder list, not even nearly in the group test. A totally forgettable test drive and car and I'm glad I spotted the decline and kept my wallet shut! To think the 208bhp classic Impreza once was in every group test and I thin even won a few coty's in various mags! Power it seems is not everything...

And so now the real rub, I have been waiting a long time for delivery of a new RS4 and really did have to think long and hard about wheter I should stop that deal and buy a T25 - evo has answered my question!

But I am going to cancel the order, right now infact (even going to get my deposit back as the dealer breached on lastest agreed delivery date!) and yes finally I am going over to the darkside...cue dramtic music and 'arise Lord Vader!'

And with the money saved I think I will get the Mrs a Megane 230 - then she will have an even better car then me (according to evo!)

I am sure the evo article will raise a lot of discussion on here, for once I hope people are able to take off the Subaru coloured specs (I have an old pair ready in hope that the 08 Impreza will restore the faith) and read the article to see what it says!

For today Mitsi 1 - Scoob 0

So just where is the Prodrive P2????

andythejock01wrx

What car do you own at the mo MBK ?

C2forWRX

you actually cancelled an rs4 for an evo and a renault?

cw42

iTrader: (1)

I know now what to look forward to when I get home today Cheers MBK

andythejock01wrx

???

Huh Chris ?

markGT

Everybody to their own, but I wouldn’t buy a car or not as the case may be because EVO said it’s good or bad. I had a 182 which EVO regard as the best of best HH, IMHO it was a boring pile of crap. They hated the CTR and it wasn’t even in their greatest HH of all time test. But I loved the CTR and the 172/182/MINI were boring in comparison. I happen to think my 05 STI PPP is a better car then my old EVO VI TME which is still regarded as the best EVO to date. Evo change their mind every issue, I remember a few issues ago they said "If you needed any more cross country then the current 06 STI then you need your head looking at". Magazines like EVO are there to give you an idea and give the thumbs up to who is advertising the most, generally Renault or MINI (BMW). However saying that why don’t you get a test drive of both and make your mind up based on what you like, not what a complete stranger in a magazine says!

WHEELSHOP0_0

I have in the last couple of days become an RS4 owner admittededly an older model but cannot believe that an Evo and Megan combo will outweigh the RS4.

I have owned a few Evo's,(mate has a 9GT with 400bhp) all good at what they do and read reports on the Megan and will state that none come close to the RS4. I understand that they are in a different price range but if your choice included an RS4 then I assume your circumstances have now changed.
Back to the thread tho. depends on if you want off the peg or bespoke as you can buy a suit from Burtons that is quite nice, but the ones who know will tell if you have Sav. row


ps I cant afford any of them so I am just jealous

Bubba po

I was thinking of getting a MY00 classic, but I've ended up with another MY99.

It's crap being poor.

andythejock01wrx

It it a wagon ? blue ? pics ?

Bubba for 50,000 posts !

WHEELSHOP0_0

My most loved cars in recent years was my classic Wagon Bubba, dont worry you have loads of rep. points tho.

Bubba po

Be sorting it this week, I think. Actually, I'm not bothered - I wouldn't buy a newage anyway, even if i had the wonga. I might have liked a P1, though.

Mog

MBK.....I have been waiting for 3 days for someone to voice an opinion about the T25 v Evo360 Car of the year article, respect what you say but the article did say some prefered the T25 but the majority didn't, put a different set of people in that situation and it could be reversed.

However the article does say with equal drivers the T25 is the faster car. The T25 is a monster but a granny could drive around town in it and it is just a case of how hard and how long you keep the loud pedal down.

I had a 1st generation T25 with 350/400 and it went beyond my driver abilities but in some circumstances felt it could have had more grunt which the new one address's in my opinion but hey everyone is different and that is what makes people buy a certain car even if other people disagree.

Mog

cw42

iTrader: (1)

I read MBK's post at work, figuring he'd just recieved it through the post that morning, and as I'd started at 6am today, I knew mine would be waiting for me when I got home

As it was

The main shot of the Welsh contenders looks familiar:

We were up there earlier this year, on a pilgramige to find where EVO had taken another of thier shots:
Ours was a bit foggy on the day though

ARM-Scooby

omg what a long post filled with waffle!

Bat-Fink

No way would I pay that for a bloody Impreza.

That's M3 or Exige money with some change left over.

scooby222

i have to say that i wouldve waited on the rs4,demanding a new tt courtesy car from the dealer as compensation for the extended delivery, had a few weeks or months fun in it then sold it on at list or with a minimal loss then got an evo if i really felt that was the way to go. after all you maybe can get a brand new evo for 30k but go back in a month and see what you get for it,im guessing at round about 22 on a good day. i lost even more than that on my sti within 6 months,thats why ive still got it.
being an impreza anorak and having driven both an evo and new rs4, i wouldve been spending euros not yen

LitchfieldImports

Apologies in advance for the length of this post but I thought as I was there I’d shed a bit more light on Evo’s Car of the year review, especially the notion that they are somehow bias towards friends/advertisers This is simply nonsense and as long as the current people are around it won’t change. The reason Renault, and Porsches for that matter, always do well is because the short snapshot magazines like Evo have with the cars they are simply fantastic! The merits of ownership are difficult to gauge over a few days.

This is the 4th year in a row we have been invited along which isn’t bad going really and for the record the first time, in a Spec C, we won (part1) and the last Type-25 beat an Evo the following year as well This year we made some fundamental and silly mistakes but it was a fascinating experiences never the less and something that has already started changes.

I knew going into the event that most journalist don’t really “get” the whole Subaru/Evo thing anymore, in fact I know that many are bored to death of them.
So we decided that we really needed to send our A-line version of the Type-25 as this would be far more civilised, quieter and more grown up. However as the date quickly approached it wasn’t going to be ready in time. The only choice was to take the Spec C version which as expected polarizes opinion further.

When Evo called to tell me the format a few days before, we were supposed to spend a day on a circuit and the weather forecast was for heavy rain. We changed the tyres onto the optional semi slick Pirelli Corsas (great in the wet as well) and replaced the front brake pads and discs that felt a bit warped after many trackdays and a recent Nurburgring trip. This was the first major mistake. Stupidly work commitments meant these were changed the day before and bedded in on the journey into Wales. Only it wasn’t the discs and pads that were the problem but a warped bell which now felt even worse when pressing on Not the first impression you want when an already sceptical journalist gets behind the wheel

Problems with time and getting circuit access meant that we wouldn’t be doing circuit work and the heavy rain that was forecasted never arrived. You’d think that this wouldn’t make a difference but it significantly effected how the car was viewed. The setup of the car was such that you simply couldn’t unstick it. Having driven all of the cars there it was on a completely different performance plain but on these particular tricky Welsh roads the Type-25 did feel a bit to much.

For example, they usually pick a wide clear corner to do some action/sideways shots but each time they headed into it the Type-25 just went around faster, no understeer, no oversteer just increasing surreal speeds. Devastating point to point pace but also not as much fun as it could have been. The EvoIX in comparison was superb, if a lot slower, you could slide it all over the place without trying. I wouldn’t want this as my own everyday setup as sooner or later that big off would come but on those deserted Welsh roads and for a few days it made sense.

I thought exactly the same about the Elise Vs Exige, in every aspect the Exige should have out performed its cheaper sibling but the Elise was far more interesting. On any other roads the Exige would have been better but here the level of grip the chassis and tyres generated you just couldn’t have the same amount of fun as the more twitchy and nimble Elise

Opinions were genuinely split down the middle between the Impreza and Evo camps and maybe if usual journalists like B.Fraser and R.Meaden where there it might have swung in our favour. Lets not forget these are the very best cars they have driven all year and there wasn’t a bad one there. They (9-10 Journalists) work their individual scores out on the last day and calculate an average. Now I know some loved the Type-25 and scored it extremely highly but equal others did not and if you really didn’t like it then it’s possible to drag the average down with a very low score.

It’s fair to say that when you have been working on a car for as long as Powerstation and I have it’s easy to get tunnel vision on the way it performs. The focus gets set on ultimate pace and it’s possible to forget some of the subtleties we look for in performance cars.

The issues that a few people raised were; a kick back through the steering wheel at lower speeds, light steering and huge chassis grip. The kick back is a known trait of the MY05+ Imprezas, the sticky Pirellis and undulating Welsh mountain roads just magnified it. Powerstation are already working on a cheap fix. The light steering is significantly improved with the right choice of road tyres and we are also trying increased amounts of Caster. Using a more road focused tyre also allows the considerable torque of the Type-25 to overwhelmed the rear tyres and bring back power-oversteer in the dry. This is a difficult balance to achieve as the car is designed to be as quick and safe point to point as possible. Not everyone wants to be a oversteer hero but perhaps the chassis could have been more adjustable when provoked.
I also know that if they had received the A-line version it would have done extremely well but hindsight is a wonderful thing

It’s always awkward when you put your work up from critical/public scrutiny, I certainly didn’t think the review was negative and the opinions have improved our understanding and prospective on the car

As I’ve said in a previous thread if you have to justify “if” an Impreza is worth £40k+ then it probably isn’t the car for you. There is no rational explanation for these types of cars. Now if you wait until the next Evo issue we can start a thread on is a Ford GT or Koenigsegg worth £100,000+ more than a simple Subaru that’s quicker around a circuit

MBK a demo car is available for interested people to try first hand on more normal roads

Sorry again for the length.

Iain

Litchfield Imports

MBK

Nice one Iain, fair explanation - like I said before glad you are able to accept the feedback and work on the future cars, no offence intended just my opinion which seemed to be echoed in evo. Maybe we will come across for a test drive, just to be sure - and if not maybe I will buy an Evo from you!

As I said I still think you and Powerstation do an awesome job especially with the Spec C/T20 models and would not hesitate to use your services in future.

PS: I was joking about the Renault, she buys her own cars! Just a coment to get a reaction - eg that evo say it's even better than an Evo! As for the RS4 try to get an Audi dealer to give you a delivery date they can actually stick to - of course you can have a used one for above list tomorrow - but would you at 50K plus!

As said before, a sad day for a long term Impreza fan in many ways, and I hope I will be eating my words and the 08 Impreza is again a world beating icon.

Like I said flamsuit firmly on when I posted!

andythejock01wrx

I think it's fab that performance specialists will put forward their point of view to relative to a magazine review in this manner.

Bravo !

Andy

PS Can I have one ?

Martin2005

I'm not entirely sure what the point of your original post was, but nice piece of backtracking

craigdmcd

iTrader: (2)

Iain, lovely explanation, and truly understandable. If the money wasn't a massive issue, then the new A-line version sounds like the car I would have for day to day driving over most almost any normal opposition that I can think of. Just have to keep on hoping for a lottery win or a sizeable will from a long lost aunty.

MBK

When the seagulls follow the trawler....maybe that's clearer!

No backtracking from me! The Evo 360 beat the T25 fair and square on the road, I think even Iain accepts that! And it didn't, as you suggested in a previous thread, eat the Evo 360 alive!

I still respect the Powerstation work is all I have said - unless you read something else into that. I speak as I find and the T25 handling kit is truly amazing.

Maybe it's the fact I respect the humility that Iain has shown in accepting this just may not be the car they thought it was that makes you think I am backtracking.

My second point is a simple one, I have no attachment to evo, subaru or powerstation/litchfield and the success or otherwise of any has no meaning to me, my points were just an opinion!

The simple facts are that in the late 80's people happily waited a year for a standard Impreza Turbo, now people struggle to give an 06 STi away, Evo's on the other hand have weathered the storm a little better...

This is a lot of fun though, note to self - be controversial and vague in future, it's a chuckle and gets a response!

Martin2005

When you say it beat the T25 on the road, do you mean it was faster...because I very much doubt it

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

MBK.

You were bound to get some heat fella

TX.

juggers

iTrader: (1)

MBk i am selling my 56 plate rs4 fully loaded pm if your interested.

LitchfieldImports

MBK without wanting continue the debate what I ment by the post was if you wanted a car to slide around on those 'particular' roads then the Evo was more fun. If you wanted to get from a to b quickly the Type-25 was a LOT quicker. If you had seen the score cards you'd realise it was not as cut a dry as your comments suggest.

But a new Evo owner will defend his new purchase decision

Iain

stilover

Don't cancel the RS4 for an Evo.

Like said above. You'll lose a shed load of cash in months on an Evo, yet like you say yourself, second hand RS4's are going for above list.
My old man is lucky enough to have the new RS4, and I've driven it a few times. It's just an awsome car. OK the Evo/T25 are lighter, but the build quality and ergonomics of the RS4 are just in another league.

Plus. Stick 3 above average drivers in an Evo 360, a T25, and a RS4. Attack the same stretch of road together, and you'll all get to your destination at the same time. Neither car is faster than the other in the real world, apart from when on a race track.

LitchfieldImports

Stilover makes a good point, there is only so fast you can drive down a piece of road safely. I could keep up with almost everything in the Swift Now that was a great car!

Iain

madisonmonkey

iTrader: (4)

Surely purchases of cars like these aren't based on magazine reviews? I would sooner own a T25 than evo360 because it's the ultimate scoob and thats what I like Who gets anywhere first is a little irrelevant.
T25 or RS4? thats a tricky one but imho there would be more fun to be had in the worse built, less ergonomic jap

TimmyboyWRX

i buy with my heart not my head lol, so reviews mean very little to me, if ive set my mind on summit il go get it... and id still go for the t25 as its the ultimate specialist and i love it!

Though id not say no to an rs4 in black