How many P1 owners wish they had waited for the M3 now eh?
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I am neither a Scooby owner or M3 owner, so feel more qualified to give an unbiased opinion.. 
If it was my money, I would have a P1 WR over the current new M3. They may have tried to improve the next generation BM, but it still has too many weight handicaps (electric seats - what's that all about in a "driver's" car
!) and with a 300 Kg weight disadvantage (two Blubs allegedly ) will never compete dynamically with a P1 (or even a UK Scoob I would imagine!). If they decide to bring out a stripped out lightweight version, I will reserve judgement and see what that is like, but it would have to be one hell of a diet to shed that much weight.
I am fascinated by some people's "must have the latest fashion car" attitude and prefer instead to keep a car and improve / develop it so that it is individual and personal to me. A P1 / 22B will become a classic (due to the limited numbers), you won't say that about the M3 when they have sold 12,000 of them! I am also puzzled how so few of you have any sort of brand loyalty, especially as the Scoobies seem to serve you so well, yet you discard them at the hint of the next "pretender" 
Best regards
Mike R
If it was my money, I would have a P1 WR over the current new M3. They may have tried to improve the next generation BM, but it still has too many weight handicaps (electric seats - what's that all about in a "driver's" car
!) and with a 300 Kg weight disadvantage (two Blubs allegedly ) will never compete dynamically with a P1 (or even a UK Scoob I would imagine!). If they decide to bring out a stripped out lightweight version, I will reserve judgement and see what that is like, but it would have to be one hell of a diet to shed that much weight.I am fascinated by some people's "must have the latest fashion car" attitude and prefer instead to keep a car and improve / develop it so that it is individual and personal to me. A P1 / 22B will become a classic (due to the limited numbers), you won't say that about the M3 when they have sold 12,000 of them! I am also puzzled how so few of you have any sort of brand loyalty, especially as the Scoobies seem to serve you so well, yet you discard them at the hint of the next "pretender"
Best regards
Mike R
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Wotcha Mike and all
I think that on the whole Subaru drivers are incredibly brand loyal: how many BMWnets are there? We make the mormons look like they have a passing interest in families...
The M3 looks a wonderful car, and the interior looks truly stunning. According to EVO's test drive, it's the best yet: traction control tames a bit of the fun that they've put back into the car, and that can be turned off. (Hope you can see the logic there)
I would think it a truly viable alternative to the P1 driver-wise, possibly more fun being RWD. I tend to think that we underestimate most cars ability "on twisty bits" or when you "show it some wet". The M3 may even be more fun if you like ****-out action and turn off traction control. Driver skill will undoubtedly be a factor here.
All this doesn't alter the fact that it will be ordered by people who won't bother to take a test drive in it.
The P1, for me, would still get my vote. I own an Impreza, and love it warts and all. It rattles, it's noisy, it isn't subtle. But every time I drive it, I get out of it with a huge grin on my face. The overall package, crap interior, the laughable trimming in the boot, suggests that money has been spent on the important bits.
The P1 could only do this moreso.
Also, bear in mind the price. My Impreza was 16K-ish new. The P1 is twice that. The M3 is three times that. Different market?
I'm not intending to have a go at anyone here, everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that I'd love a P1 and would probably love the M3 if I could justify that much money on a car. If I had the money, I think I'd still take the P1 and a few holidays. Nice dilemma to have.
I think that on the whole Subaru drivers are incredibly brand loyal: how many BMWnets are there? We make the mormons look like they have a passing interest in families...
The M3 looks a wonderful car, and the interior looks truly stunning. According to EVO's test drive, it's the best yet: traction control tames a bit of the fun that they've put back into the car, and that can be turned off. (Hope you can see the logic there)
I would think it a truly viable alternative to the P1 driver-wise, possibly more fun being RWD. I tend to think that we underestimate most cars ability "on twisty bits" or when you "show it some wet". The M3 may even be more fun if you like ****-out action and turn off traction control. Driver skill will undoubtedly be a factor here.
All this doesn't alter the fact that it will be ordered by people who won't bother to take a test drive in it.
The P1, for me, would still get my vote. I own an Impreza, and love it warts and all. It rattles, it's noisy, it isn't subtle. But every time I drive it, I get out of it with a huge grin on my face. The overall package, crap interior, the laughable trimming in the boot, suggests that money has been spent on the important bits.
The P1 could only do this moreso.
Also, bear in mind the price. My Impreza was 16K-ish new. The P1 is twice that. The M3 is three times that. Different market?
I'm not intending to have a go at anyone here, everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that I'd love a P1 and would probably love the M3 if I could justify that much money on a car. If I had the money, I think I'd still take the P1 and a few holidays
. Nice dilemma to have.
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paulmon,
I’ve done 25,000 in my STI since Feb and I still love every second of it, no back or joint problems, I just can't wait to get in and drive it, looking forward to the next 25,000, and passing BM after BM out on the roads.
My daughter just loves it when the kids in BM's turn round in their seats cos there dad has just told em that there’s a Scooby coming up behind them. (oh err missus)
So I know what I would rather have thank you
I’ve done 25,000 in my STI since Feb and I still love every second of it, no back or joint problems, I just can't wait to get in and drive it, looking forward to the next 25,000, and passing BM after BM out on the roads.
My daughter just loves it when the kids in BM's turn round in their seats cos there dad has just told em that there’s a Scooby coming up behind them. (oh err missus)
So I know what I would rather have thank you
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To answer a few points raised here. As Paul and myself have found out the wait for these cars is long and supply for the next 24 months or so very limited. By the end of 2001 there will still be less M3's out in the UK than P1's.
Mr Rainbird I am suprised that you can question someone when they fancy a 340bhp rear wheel drive car. Anyway whats wrong with having the latest must have car ?.
As for brand loyalty I'm on my 5th Scooby and the wife will probably have a MY01 whilst I have the M3. She would have the P1 except she refuses to drive a three door.
Yes I get bored with my cars quickly and love to try something new. M3 is the only other car I could replace the P1 with.
As someone else said the BMW owners do not have a BBS of this quality. the only one Ive found is very American. The language, attitudes and question defy belief from people just about to spend $50,000 on a car. People even put in links saying "New pictures of M3". Click on the link and its 50-50 that it doesnt go to a Gay **** site. My IS department didnt appreciate it.
Jonathan
Still very happy with his 3/4 P1 WR but looking forward to the M3
Mr Rainbird I am suprised that you can question someone when they fancy a 340bhp rear wheel drive car. Anyway whats wrong with having the latest must have car ?.
As for brand loyalty I'm on my 5th Scooby and the wife will probably have a MY01 whilst I have the M3. She would have the P1 except she refuses to drive a three door.
Yes I get bored with my cars quickly and love to try something new. M3 is the only other car I could replace the P1 with.
As someone else said the BMW owners do not have a BBS of this quality. the only one Ive found is very American. The language, attitudes and question defy belief from people just about to spend $50,000 on a car. People even put in links saying "New pictures of M3". Click on the link and its 50-50 that it doesnt go to a Gay **** site. My IS department didnt appreciate it.
Jonathan
Still very happy with his 3/4 P1 WR but looking forward to the M3
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From: London
Everyone's got a Beemer - and soon everyone and his dog will have the new M3. Even though the M3's got more power, isn't the P1 still quicker? Bet it handles better too.
Besides, P1's look great, I think the new M3 is pretty bland, just like most of the BM range.
Besides, P1's look great, I think the new M3 is pretty bland, just like most of the BM range.
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Josh,
Living in Milton Keynes like me, you must get sick of the sight of M3's as well.
My nan has one, but says it's a pussies car! She's going to pass it on to my great gran who's more likely to appreciate it, as long as her zimmer will go in the boot.
Living in Milton Keynes like me, you must get sick of the sight of M3's as well.
My nan has one, but says it's a pussies car! She's going to pass it on to my great gran who's more likely to appreciate it, as long as her zimmer will go in the boot.
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Sticks and Stones may break my bones... 
At the risk of being attacked from all angles.
I have just placed an order for the new M3 after much deliberation. Reasons for this as follows:
BMW build quality second to none.
I drive a BMW at the moment and my wife drives a Impreza turbo. BMW is in a completely different league to Subaru and after having a good look round the new Impreza yesterday I'm still not convinced. (All that tacky carbon fibre round the dash looks crap)
M3 standard specification has everything Leather, Air Con, PDC, etc...)
The performance is only just short of what you get from a P1(OK it may not handle as well in the wet.) and will be much easier to live with. I drive my wifes car on a regular basis because it's much more fun than my 323 coupe, But I would'nt like to do 25000 miles a year in it.
The new M3 looks fantastic. It is guaranteed to keep those exclusive looks unlike the outgoing M3 which was a standard coupe with different wheels and a bodykit that could be stuck onto a 318is.
The argument about everybody having one is complete rubbish. The outgoing model is over 6 years old now so there are a lot of them about.
I have been told it will be at least 12-18 months before I take delivery and thats with the biggest BMW dealer in the North West. It's going to be a at least 2-3 years before these cars find themselves on the second hand market subsequently more affordable.
Paul
[This message has been edited by paulmon (edited 20 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by paulmon (edited 20 October 2000).]
At the risk of being attacked from all angles.
I have just placed an order for the new M3 after much deliberation. Reasons for this as follows:
BMW build quality second to none.
I drive a BMW at the moment and my wife drives a Impreza turbo. BMW is in a completely different league to Subaru and after having a good look round the new Impreza yesterday I'm still not convinced. (All that tacky carbon fibre round the dash looks crap)
M3 standard specification has everything Leather, Air Con, PDC, etc...)
The performance is only just short of what you get from a P1(OK it may not handle as well in the wet.) and will be much easier to live with. I drive my wifes car on a regular basis because it's much more fun than my 323 coupe, But I would'nt like to do 25000 miles a year in it.
The new M3 looks fantastic. It is guaranteed to keep those exclusive looks unlike the outgoing M3 which was a standard coupe with different wheels and a bodykit that could be stuck onto a 318is.
The argument about everybody having one is complete rubbish. The outgoing model is over 6 years old now so there are a lot of them about.
I have been told it will be at least 12-18 months before I take delivery and thats with the biggest BMW dealer in the North West. It's going to be a at least 2-3 years before these cars find themselves on the second hand market subsequently more affordable.
Paul
[This message has been edited by paulmon (edited 20 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by paulmon (edited 20 October 2000).]
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M3 - No thanks!
The new version, doesn't live up to the standard set by the the Impreza in terms of being a drivers car.
Even a standard Impreza with PPP will leave the M3 standing, with beacoup d'argent to spare.
Mondeo's are a rarer commodity where I live and look infinately more desirable.
The new version, doesn't live up to the standard set by the the Impreza in terms of being a drivers car.
Even a standard Impreza with PPP will leave the M3 standing, with beacoup d'argent to spare.
Mondeo's are a rarer commodity where I live and look infinately more desirable.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jonathan:
<B>Anyway whats wrong with having the latest must have car ?.
[/quote]
..that sounds shallower than Papa Smurfs swimming pool
Mike, very good point - though I suspect that many people (note - trying hard not to tarbrush everyone) frequenting this BBS find the concept of owning a car for more than 2 or 3 years quite, quite alien - let alone, god forbid, actually altering it in any way
long live materialistic consumerism eh ?
<B>Anyway whats wrong with having the latest must have car ?.
[/quote]
..that sounds shallower than Papa Smurfs swimming pool
Mike, very good point - though I suspect that many people (note - trying hard not to tarbrush everyone) frequenting this BBS find the concept of owning a car for more than 2 or 3 years quite, quite alien - let alone, god forbid, actually altering it in any way
long live materialistic consumerism eh ?
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Given the people on this board are meant to be driving enthusiasts, I find it a bit surprising how people will either order the car, or be prepared to slag it off without even driving it. More image concsious and prejudiced than we'd care to admit, heh?
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Jonathan,
I am very set in my ways about what I call a "driver's" car and something that weighs 1500Kg with 338bhp (343PS) is only going to have a power to weight of 225bhp per ton - not exactly ground breaking, or wieldy. A P1 has the same power to weight with MUCH less horse power. Obviously with that much less weight to throw around as well, the P1 will feel the more nimble and "chuckable" car.
If BMW brought out a 1300Kg lightweight M3, now that would be a different kettle of tuna.. To even be in the ball park, a "performance" car should be no more than 1300Kg IMHO...
Just imagine a rwd car that weighs 1275Kg with 527bhp..... Now THAT'S what I call exciting!
LOL
Mike R
I am very set in my ways about what I call a "driver's" car and something that weighs 1500Kg with 338bhp (343PS) is only going to have a power to weight of 225bhp per ton - not exactly ground breaking, or wieldy. A P1 has the same power to weight with MUCH less horse power. Obviously with that much less weight to throw around as well, the P1 will feel the more nimble and "chuckable" car.
If BMW brought out a 1300Kg lightweight M3, now that would be a different kettle of tuna..
To even be in the ball park, a "performance" car should be no more than 1300Kg IMHO...Just imagine a rwd car that weighs 1275Kg with 527bhp.....
Now THAT'S what I call exciting!LOL
Mike R
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From: Newmarket Suffolk
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rum*:
<B>...does the new M3 take the bends any better????[/quote]
Rum
Do you mean better than the old M3 or better than your new slimline P1???
<B>...does the new M3 take the bends any better????
[/quote]Rum
Do you mean better than the old M3 or better than your new slimline P1???
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This post should be consigned to the MUPPET section.
I can only hope that the new M3 is far superior to the old one.
I test drove an M3 about 1 year ago - what a huge disappointment - too slow, crap handling, very duff steering and poor brakes, not to mention a far balnder interior to the Scoob!
I found the Scoob better in all departments - but hey if the new one is a totally different beast then thats good - it needed drastic improvement
Presumably it is much cheaper on the Continent (especially at the current e/r) or are people in a race to be ripped off
I think it is embarassing that any such comparisons exist
I am not a supporter of the sti5.... I mean P1 but its a hell of a lot more fun than a crappy rear wheel drive has been
I can only hope that the new M3 is far superior to the old one.
I test drove an M3 about 1 year ago - what a huge disappointment - too slow, crap handling, very duff steering and poor brakes, not to mention a far balnder interior to the Scoob!
I found the Scoob better in all departments - but hey if the new one is a totally different beast then thats good - it needed drastic improvement
Presumably it is much cheaper on the Continent (especially at the current e/r) or are people in a race to be ripped off
I think it is embarassing that any such comparisons exist
I am not a supporter of the sti5.... I mean P1 but its a hell of a lot more fun than a crappy rear wheel drive has been
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From: Lots of different places! (Thank you Mr. Lambert)
I don't have either a P1 or an M3, but I think the choice comes down to how the various costs of each car break down. Let's assume they are both about £35K, here is a cost breakdown:-
Impreza P1
Engineering (inc. engine, chassis, gearbox,suspension etc.) £34995
Interior £5
Useless extras £0
Badge £0
BMW M3
Engineering (inc. engine, chassis, gearbox,suspension etc.) £15K
Interior £5K
Useless extras £5K
Badge £10K
So if you collect badges or loads of extras get an M3 whereas if you want a car to drive get a P1.
paulmon - your wife has great taste (in cars anyway),
Regards,
tiggers
Impreza P1
Engineering (inc. engine, chassis, gearbox,suspension etc.) £34995
Interior £5
Useless extras £0
Badge £0
BMW M3
Engineering (inc. engine, chassis, gearbox,suspension etc.) £15K
Interior £5K
Useless extras £5K
Badge £10K
So if you collect badges or loads of extras get an M3 whereas if you want a car to drive get a P1.
paulmon - your wife has great taste (in cars anyway),
Regards,
tiggers
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Tiggers, if you honest think that there is more money spent on engineering a 4 pot turbo car to pump out 280BHP than goes into getting 340BHP from a 3.2 straight six you wan't to learn a bit more about cars mate. The quality of engineering and advancements in the new M3 are top of the line from what I can tell. The engineering of the P1 is fairly basic in comparison.(Though I'd still give my right arm for one)
Mike Rainbird, seeing as the only point of a car is to be driven, you might want to drive the new M3 before you give your "unbiased opinion".
I'm not a BMW fan, I just don't like useless, biased conjecture.
Mike Rainbird, seeing as the only point of a car is to be driven, you might want to drive the new M3 before you give your "unbiased opinion".
I'm not a BMW fan, I just don't like useless, biased conjecture.
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Robski,
Sorry, how remiss of me! 4wd is for girls anyway and E36 / 46 M3s are for middle-aged men with expanding wastelines (to suit the car ). Old shape M3 Evo III, now that WOULD be the car to sell your Scooby for....
My car will be back by the end of next week, so will be at the next meating at Scole on the second Tuesday of the month...
LOL
Swoll,
I'm not biased, I have driven the E36 M3 Evo (coupe and convertible) and will book myself down for a go in the new one as soon as our local dealer has one in. As you will see I am also not a fan of 4wd, it's just that the "stats" don't make for an exciting driver's car, as the car is it is just too heavy to be as wieldy as a car like a P1 etc. I also think from the design of the BMW it will be "an all things to all men" type of car and not focused enough for my own taste. Any car with electric seats is not concentrated enough (IMO) and is pandering to too may people's wants. The M3 GT would be more to my taste, especially if they can get the weight down.
Anyway, of course my opinion is subjective to me, just like everyone elses opinion is....
Mike R
PS. Also it was £34K on ENGINEERING not just the engine....
[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 20 October 2000).]
Sorry, how remiss of me!
4wd is for girls anyway and E36 / 46 M3s are for middle-aged men with expanding wastelines (to suit the car ). Old shape M3 Evo III, now that WOULD be the car to sell your Scooby for....My car will be back by the end of next week, so will be at the next meating at Scole on the second Tuesday of the month...
LOL
Swoll,
I'm not biased, I have driven the E36 M3 Evo (coupe and convertible) and will book myself down for a go in the new one as soon as our local dealer has one in. As you will see I am also not a fan of 4wd, it's just that the "stats" don't make for an exciting driver's car, as the car is it is just too heavy to be as wieldy as a car like a P1 etc. I also think from the design of the BMW it will be "an all things to all men" type of car and not focused enough for my own taste. Any car with electric seats is not concentrated enough (IMO) and is pandering to too may people's wants. The M3 GT would be more to my taste, especially if they can get the weight down.
Anyway, of course my opinion is subjective to me, just like everyone elses opinion is....
Mike R
PS. Also it was £34K on ENGINEERING not just the engine....
[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 20 October 2000).]