PPP ( hard facts ! )
05 October 2000, 10:06 PM
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I know the PPP has been discussed many times...but..
I've recently been sent some literature from my dealer( Prodrive stuff) which is very detailed in the performance improvements which they state the upgrade gives.I'll quote some of the figures :
0-60 standard MY99 5.55 SECS
PPP MY99 5.19 SECS
3RD GEAR :
30-50 MPH STANDARD 3.4 S PPP 3.1 S
40-60 MPH STANDARD 3.05 S PPP 2.8 S
50-70 MPH STANDARD 3.2 S PPP 2.9 S
( 3rd gear in my scooby at 40mph =circa 2900 rpm ..ie EXACTLY where the PPP should begin to make a difference over standard ( all the way to 5000rpm plus)
30-70 MPH ( through gears )
standard 5.5 secs PPP 5.06 secs
Hope I've not bamboozled you with numbers
A few q's though :
Do you feel the PPP is half a second quicker to 60 ?..5.55 fora standard scooby is one of the slower times I've seen.
Is 0.2 to 0.3 secs really that noticeable in the PPP's "superior" mid range acceleration as quoted above?
ps all these figs were tested ar MIRA.
Please shed some light on the above with "real world" experiences...!
thanks
r
I've recently been sent some literature from my dealer( Prodrive stuff) which is very detailed in the performance improvements which they state the upgrade gives.I'll quote some of the figures :
0-60 standard MY99 5.55 SECS
PPP MY99 5.19 SECS
3RD GEAR :
30-50 MPH STANDARD 3.4 S PPP 3.1 S
40-60 MPH STANDARD 3.05 S PPP 2.8 S
50-70 MPH STANDARD 3.2 S PPP 2.9 S
( 3rd gear in my scooby at 40mph =circa 2900 rpm ..ie EXACTLY where the PPP should begin to make a difference over standard ( all the way to 5000rpm plus)
30-70 MPH ( through gears )
standard 5.5 secs PPP 5.06 secs
Hope I've not bamboozled you with numbers
A few q's though :
Do you feel the PPP is half a second quicker to 60 ?..5.55 fora standard scooby is one of the slower times I've seen.
Is 0.2 to 0.3 secs really that noticeable in the PPP's "superior" mid range acceleration as quoted above?
ps all these figs were tested ar MIRA.
Please shed some light on the above with "real world" experiences...!
thanks
r
06 October 2000, 12:58 AM
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Mike,
I'm with Craig and the others here concerning the octane rating of fuel used in the UK. I run my RB5 WR on Super Unleaded and as this has dropped from 98 to 97 RON does my car need a tweak to run or will the change in octane rating not have any material effect?
Hopefully you can supply a simple answer to a non technical minded owner who doesn't understand RON ratings on fuel.
Regards
Yex
I'm with Craig and the others here concerning the octane rating of fuel used in the UK. I run my RB5 WR on Super Unleaded and as this has dropped from 98 to 97 RON does my car need a tweak to run or will the change in octane rating not have any material effect?
Hopefully you can supply a simple answer to a non technical minded owner who doesn't understand RON ratings on fuel.
Regards
Yex
06 October 2000, 09:03 AM
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Stef
These figures were taken in a repeatable manner without abusing the car. They should therefore repeatable all day long by anyone driving the car normally and will not lead to any of the components breaking.
Hasn't your car suffered from some transmission problems or was that someone else!!? ;-)
Mike
These figures were taken in a repeatable manner without abusing the car. They should therefore repeatable all day long by anyone driving the car normally and will not lead to any of the components breaking.
Hasn't your car suffered from some transmission problems or was that someone else!!? ;-)
Mike
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06 October 2000, 09:28 AM
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I thought the standard car was about 5.5 - 5.7 secs to 60mph in the "real world" and the PPP kit knocked that down to 5.2 - 5.3 from previous posts on the BBS.
However, I own an RB5 Prodrive car and EVO claim to have got 0-60 in 4.9secs with half a tank of fuel and two up. I know this is probably on grippy tarmac but numbers sell cars and you know what marketing people are like
And before Mike asks I haven't tried to get under 5 secs in my car very often...honest
Yex
However, I own an RB5 Prodrive car and EVO claim to have got 0-60 in 4.9secs with half a tank of fuel and two up. I know this is probably on grippy tarmac but numbers sell cars and you know what marketing people are like
And before Mike asks I haven't tried to get under 5 secs in my car very often...honest
Yex
06 October 2000, 10:59 AM
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I drove a demonstrator with PPP and found the biggest plus was how the engine felt. It appeared less laboured and smoother. Less or no hesitation. Great but worth £2000? I didn't think so with the car market being the way it is.
Jason
Jason
06 October 2000, 11:55 AM
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I thought the PPP was tested and mapped for 98 Ron fuel, well I can only get 97 Ron fuel - will this still be OK and will I get the same performance increase as stated ?
Is it 2K, I'm still tempted to book it in but need to be convinced.
What happens if I put 95 Ron in it ?
I'm still not sure, if It was mapped for 95 Ron I would book it in this afternoon.
OK I should probably do a search for the answers.
Is it 2K, I'm still tempted to book it in but need to be convinced.
What happens if I put 95 Ron in it ?
I'm still not sure, if It was mapped for 95 Ron I would book it in this afternoon.
OK I should probably do a search for the answers.
06 October 2000, 01:28 PM
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Rico,
Have a PPP and DEP fitted to my MY00 from new. Can tell you that it is noticeably faster than a standard all the way through the gears. It also feels much faster to 60 then 5.0 (with one up and less than half a tank), much faster mid range, and sounds superb.
In my view worth every penny of the £2K (although I spent more than that with the DEP).
Have a PPP and DEP fitted to my MY00 from new. Can tell you that it is noticeably faster than a standard all the way through the gears. It also feels much faster to 60 then 5.0 (with one up and less than half a tank), much faster mid range, and sounds superb.
In my view worth every penny of the £2K (although I spent more than that with the DEP).
06 October 2000, 01:59 PM
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Actually the demonstrator I drove was running on regular unleaded since SUL isn't available local to the dealer.
If anything I would have said the Turbo was working earlier (and harder?). The engine felt as though it was breathing easier, if that makes sense...
Jason
If anything I would have said the Turbo was working earlier (and harder?). The engine felt as though it was breathing easier, if that makes sense...
Jason
06 October 2000, 02:46 PM
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The PPP was mapped on 97RON, and is safe on 95, but as with all performance engines should be run on the best fuel available.
When using 95RON, if the ECU detects a knock it will retard the ignition so performance may not be affected in some conditions. This feature operates in exactly the same way as the std ECU.
The percentage increase remains constant irrelevant of fuel used, as power output changes dependant on fuel with the std car.
The P1 ECU also has this feature, but does give 280ps on 97RON despite the scepticism. The only way to be sure is dyno test the engine. This was done as an observed test in Japan before a power figure was quoted.
Mike
When using 95RON, if the ECU detects a knock it will retard the ignition so performance may not be affected in some conditions. This feature operates in exactly the same way as the std ECU.
The percentage increase remains constant irrelevant of fuel used, as power output changes dependant on fuel with the std car.
The P1 ECU also has this feature, but does give 280ps on 97RON despite the scepticism. The only way to be sure is dyno test the engine. This was done as an observed test in Japan before a power figure was quoted.
Mike
06 October 2000, 03:27 PM
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I'm personally sceptical as the performance figures obtained from road tests are always down on the Sti - even if it is marginal, ie 12secs to 100 v 13.
Guess the best way is to see how mine goes against one on a track.
So is the P1 100% safe on 95 ron? For max performance. And does it produce 280ps on it?
Guess the best way is to see how mine goes against one on a track.
So is the P1 100% safe on 95 ron? For max performance. And does it produce 280ps on it?
06 October 2000, 03:27 PM
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Mike, thanks for replying to that. I've got two more questions now though - sorry.
If you get knock, and the ignition gets retarded, will this then be retarded forever (even if I at a later date you put 97Ron fuel in) - ie in the same way as the standard ECU
Surely if a 'knock' is detected, that means you have had detonation - will this not damage the engine ?, in fact unless the ignition is permanently retarded you'd get this quite a lot I think ?
Thanks very much for the help, I'm feeling a bit more confident in the upgrade now.
Gary
If you get knock, and the ignition gets retarded, will this then be retarded forever (even if I at a later date you put 97Ron fuel in) - ie in the same way as the standard ECU
Surely if a 'knock' is detected, that means you have had detonation - will this not damage the engine ?, in fact unless the ignition is permanently retarded you'd get this quite a lot I think ?
Thanks very much for the help, I'm feeling a bit more confident in the upgrade now.
Gary
06 October 2000, 03:45 PM
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Craig
You might want to check your facts on times on the P1. Top Gear got sub 5 sec 0-60 and sub 13 sec 0-100. They were testing it at the same time as an EVO VI. The P1 was QUICKER. Road test data needs to be carried out by the same tester on the same day. Notice how Stef can beat nearly all published times in his UK car.
As has been stated before and it seems a tough point for some to comprehend. IM and prodrive state that the P1 will NOT give the full 280ps on 95RON.
My P1 has been on the rollers and gave similar figures to an STI that had been on their earlier. little higher but I wont be pedantic.
Jonathan
You might want to check your facts on times on the P1. Top Gear got sub 5 sec 0-60 and sub 13 sec 0-100. They were testing it at the same time as an EVO VI. The P1 was QUICKER. Road test data needs to be carried out by the same tester on the same day. Notice how Stef can beat nearly all published times in his UK car.
As has been stated before and it seems a tough point for some to comprehend. IM and prodrive state that the P1 will NOT give the full 280ps on 95RON.
My P1 has been on the rollers and gave similar figures to an STI that had been on their earlier. little higher but I wont be pedantic.
Jonathan
06 October 2000, 04:44 PM
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Gary
When the ECU is first installed it goes through a learning process where it effectively finishes the ignition map by trying to run as much advance as possible. Thats why we specify that it comes to us with Super in the tank.
Subsequently the ECU always tries to run at those ignition settings but if it senses it knock it will retard the ignition until it stops. When it next visits that site it will try to use it's learnt setting each time so it instantly reacts to a change of fuel.
Mike
When the ECU is first installed it goes through a learning process where it effectively finishes the ignition map by trying to run as much advance as possible. Thats why we specify that it comes to us with Super in the tank.
Subsequently the ECU always tries to run at those ignition settings but if it senses it knock it will retard the ignition until it stops. When it next visits that site it will try to use it's learnt setting each time so it instantly reacts to a change of fuel.
Mike
06 October 2000, 05:18 PM
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A small q on the matter....
Would a PPP ECU be safe on a euro spec turbo (Swedish GT) - with some breathing mods?
I've heard some evil rumours about the a/f mixture getting lean...
I've got a friend ( ;-) ) with a Scoobysport downpipe and backbox, and a Pipercross induction kit, and he's( ;-) again) curious about some easy and safe way to get more "oompfh" out of the ol' boxer.
RGDS
/Jerry - Sweden
Would a PPP ECU be safe on a euro spec turbo (Swedish GT) - with some breathing mods?
I've heard some evil rumours about the a/f mixture getting lean...
I've got a friend ( ;-) ) with a Scoobysport downpipe and backbox, and a Pipercross induction kit, and he's( ;-) again) curious about some easy and safe way to get more "oompfh" out of the ol' boxer.
RGDS
/Jerry - Sweden
06 October 2000, 05:35 PM
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Mike W, You said that the figures acheived in the original post were taken in a repeatable fashion without abusing the car! Are you serious? I do not think you can get a time of 6.0 secs without abusing the car. I think most would agree. I also think a UK car with full breathing modification is faster than a PPP car!
06 October 2000, 06:47 PM
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Mr Leigh
After doing some messing on the UK cars Ive owned, I would think that a UK car with full breathing mods would not be the equal of a PPP car. Let alson agree with it being faster.
Andy Tang has the ideal solution of the remaped ECU, Prodrive centre and rear, Rampod and Downpipe. I drove my RB5 with PPP and full PE system and driving back to back with some STI's there was nothing in it.
Prodrive however have to live with some constraints. ie Cat needs to stay in place and noise levels kept down. Ram air/induction kit cannont be offered either.
There are other isssues to look at when living with a car with a full system and induction kit and that is noise. High milage drivers and one with drivers aids (read spouse) are not always happy.
The PPP make a good difference on a UK car. It does cost 2k, but some of that will be realised at resale and the warranty is intact.
Jonathan
[This message has been edited by Jonathan (edited 06 October 2000).]
After doing some messing on the UK cars Ive owned, I would think that a UK car with full breathing mods would not be the equal of a PPP car. Let alson agree with it being faster.
Andy Tang has the ideal solution of the remaped ECU, Prodrive centre and rear, Rampod and Downpipe. I drove my RB5 with PPP and full PE system and driving back to back with some STI's there was nothing in it.
Prodrive however have to live with some constraints. ie Cat needs to stay in place and noise levels kept down. Ram air/induction kit cannont be offered either.
There are other isssues to look at when living with a car with a full system and induction kit and that is noise. High milage drivers and one with drivers aids (read spouse) are not always happy.
The PPP make a good difference on a UK car. It does cost 2k, but some of that will be realised at resale and the warranty is intact.
Jonathan
[This message has been edited by Jonathan (edited 06 October 2000).]
06 October 2000, 06:59 PM
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Mr Leigh, a UK car with full breathing modifications wont be faster (or even equal) to a PPP car in my humble opinion.
How the heck is any exhaust and air filter going to give you an extra 35lb/ft all the way from 2700rpm to 5500rpm and another 20-25bhp?
I've been there, done that, got the T shirt and a handful of ECUs, exhausts and filters and downpipes and race plugs and a bigger turbo to boot so, please trust me, i know.
I have the ideal solution
UK MY99
Possum Link ECU by BRD
VF23 turbo by BRD and Steve J Lawson
HKS Induction by BRD
HKS Iridium plugs by BRD
SS Downpipe
SS Back Box
Magnex decatt centre
Scooby gets TLC courtesy of Steve J Lawson
.....in my cupboard i have a PPP Ecu, a Sti centre section and a prodrive back box and an ITG panle filter.
Sunil
[This message has been edited by sunilp (edited 06 October 2000).]
How the heck is any exhaust and air filter going to give you an extra 35lb/ft all the way from 2700rpm to 5500rpm and another 20-25bhp?
I've been there, done that, got the T shirt and a handful of ECUs, exhausts and filters and downpipes and race plugs and a bigger turbo to boot so, please trust me, i know.
I have the ideal solution
UK MY99
Possum Link ECU by BRD
VF23 turbo by BRD and Steve J Lawson
HKS Induction by BRD
HKS Iridium plugs by BRD
SS Downpipe
SS Back Box
Magnex decatt centre
Scooby gets TLC courtesy of Steve J Lawson
.....in my cupboard i have a PPP Ecu, a Sti centre section and a prodrive back box and an ITG panle filter.
Sunil
[This message has been edited by sunilp (edited 06 October 2000).]
06 October 2000, 07:39 PM
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Sunil,
Why the magnex centre and not the SS centre?
Regarding the P1, someone said, ProDrive import the STI car and 'bolt on bits' - is this right ?
Personally I'd like to try and STI VI and see how it compares to my MY00+PPP+SS full exahaust
I know the STi will be a bit quicker, but I'd love to feel how the engine would compare in torque, sprint time and how the ride compares with my ProDrive handling pack.
Anyone got an STi V or VI and is in a position to compare the 2 cars ?
Daz
Why the magnex centre and not the SS centre?
Regarding the P1, someone said, ProDrive import the STI car and 'bolt on bits' - is this right ?
Personally I'd like to try and STI VI and see how it compares to my MY00+PPP+SS full exahaust
I know the STi will be a bit quicker, but I'd love to feel how the engine would compare in torque, sprint time and how the ride compares with my ProDrive handling pack.
Anyone got an STi V or VI and is in a position to compare the 2 cars ?
Daz
06 October 2000, 08:31 PM
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I dont believe this bbs sometimes !
Sunil has posted his experiences, having shelled out his own hard earned cash, and people question his opinions/take the **** etc. Can the comments not be more constructive for once?
DJ
Sunil has posted his experiences, having shelled out his own hard earned cash, and people question his opinions/take the **** etc. Can the comments not be more constructive for once?
DJ