159mph Policeman
01 February 2006, 08:51 AM
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159mph Policeman
What do we think about this.
I can't make my mind up personally...
A court's refusal to convict a police constable who reached 159mph on a motorway of speeding and dangerous driving is being challenged.
Pc Mark Milton, 38, from Telford, Shropshire, was recorded by the patrol car's video camera on the M54 in 2003.
District Judge Bruce Morgan cleared him after hearing he was "familiarising" himself with a new car.
High Court judges were asked on Tuesday to decide whether an officer could lawfully drive at those speeds.
Edmund Lawson QC, appearing for the director of public prosecutions, asked Lady Justice Hallett and Mr Justice Owen to convict Pc Milton of the charges of dangerous driving and speeding or order a new hearing in his case.
'Eye watering speeds'
He described Pc Milton's driving as "not good for public health" and told the judges that there was no blue lights flashing or sirens sounding when Pc Milton, an advanced driver, was clocked in the early hours of 5 December 2003.
Mr Lawson said: "This case raises issues of real public interest concerning whether a police officer can, with impunity, drive a police car at 'eye watering' speeds in excess of twice the relevant speed limits when not responding to an emergency or otherwise engaged in the prevention of detecting crime."
In the original hearing at Ludlow Magistrates' Court Judge Morgan said Pc Milton, an armed response officer, was the "creme de la creme" of police drivers.
He took into account the fact that two police officers, including West Mercia Police's senior driving instructor, who gave evidence for the prosecution, had declined to classify the defendant's driving as dangerous.
John McGuinness QC, speaking for Pc Milton, said the district judge had been entitled to take account of the officer's advanced driving skills and to conclude his driving was not dangerous at the time in question.
"Excessive speed alone is not a basis to convict for dangerous driving," he said. A judgement is expected on Wednesday.
I can't make my mind up personally...
A court's refusal to convict a police constable who reached 159mph on a motorway of speeding and dangerous driving is being challenged.
Pc Mark Milton, 38, from Telford, Shropshire, was recorded by the patrol car's video camera on the M54 in 2003.
District Judge Bruce Morgan cleared him after hearing he was "familiarising" himself with a new car.
High Court judges were asked on Tuesday to decide whether an officer could lawfully drive at those speeds.
Edmund Lawson QC, appearing for the director of public prosecutions, asked Lady Justice Hallett and Mr Justice Owen to convict Pc Milton of the charges of dangerous driving and speeding or order a new hearing in his case.
'Eye watering speeds'
He described Pc Milton's driving as "not good for public health" and told the judges that there was no blue lights flashing or sirens sounding when Pc Milton, an advanced driver, was clocked in the early hours of 5 December 2003.
Mr Lawson said: "This case raises issues of real public interest concerning whether a police officer can, with impunity, drive a police car at 'eye watering' speeds in excess of twice the relevant speed limits when not responding to an emergency or otherwise engaged in the prevention of detecting crime."
In the original hearing at Ludlow Magistrates' Court Judge Morgan said Pc Milton, an armed response officer, was the "creme de la creme" of police drivers.
He took into account the fact that two police officers, including West Mercia Police's senior driving instructor, who gave evidence for the prosecution, had declined to classify the defendant's driving as dangerous.
John McGuinness QC, speaking for Pc Milton, said the district judge had been entitled to take account of the officer's advanced driving skills and to conclude his driving was not dangerous at the time in question.
"Excessive speed alone is not a basis to convict for dangerous driving," he said. A judgement is expected on Wednesday.
01 February 2006, 08:55 AM
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i think he was taking the ****... Testing a police car do 80mph through a village. What a manker!! shot the ****! then turn him into a special. 
01 February 2006, 10:30 AM
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I dont think it was dangerous driving, and i beleve to police should test there cars (but on non-public roads)
But what i object to is the case that if it was any normal person with advanced driving underthere belt they would get done. Like the f1 drivers that have been done. (dono if any rally drivers have been done)
But what i object to is the case that if it was any normal person with advanced driving underthere belt they would get done. Like the f1 drivers that have been done. (dono if any rally drivers have been done)
01 February 2006, 10:49 AM
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how can it not be dangerous driving when its on a public highway, it doesnt matter what time in the morning it was, there is still usually people about on motorways all through the night!
01 February 2006, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by T_H_E__c_R_O_W
(dono if any rally drivers have been done)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3257523.stm
01 February 2006, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by slammedmind
one rule for all is all ill say, if hes not on duty hes just an average joe.....
Police are always above the law and they can do what they like. If anyone say's different, they can expect a night in the cells.
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01 February 2006, 12:44 PM
#8
Don't have a problem with it on a motorway, afterall, they were built for high speed motoring. 'BUT' 80 in a residential posted 30 is downright irresponsible, particularly as it wasn't an emergency.
01 February 2006, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RedScoob
Nope, apparently not.
Police are always above the law and they can do what they like. If anyone say's different, they can expect a night in the cells.
Police are always above the law and they can do what they like. If anyone say's different, they can expect a night in the cells.
01 February 2006, 01:03 PM
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So when they pull me (as I know will happen) i'll take speeding but not dangerous driving....
I think it's a joke and another reason why I can't wait to get out of this "down-the-toilet" country....
"As soon as I got my cheque........I was gone!!"
I think it's a joke and another reason why I can't wait to get out of this "down-the-toilet" country....
"As soon as I got my cheque........I was gone!!"
01 February 2006, 01:33 PM
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we are a soft target, anybody that can afford to run, tax, insure and above all purchase a decent car is subject to this 'tax' and persecution.
I wouldn't mind if they caught criminals but they don't seem to be doing that anymore.
We are easy meat, they know we will pay
I wouldn't mind if they caught criminals but they don't seem to be doing that anymore.
We are easy meat, they know we will pay
01 February 2006, 01:37 PM
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HOW I SEE IT.... set the scene, your parents or wife & children are involved in a serious crash... !
(god forbid this to ever happen) but it does happen unfortunetely for some.....
now this copper is called to it... but hes say 15 miles away...
either.... he can fly 159mph down a stretch of motorway and hopefully get there in time
or does he go 80-90 take an extra 10 mins or so and in that time the car involved in the accident bursts into flames and kills all your loved ones !
???????????????
NOW THEN..... when its put across like that, you wud hope that officer knows his cars full limits and capabiltys so he can ensure a quick and safe arrival to the scene !
i think it was perfectly ok 159mph on the motorway... fair comment he should get his ********* ripped apart for the 80 in a 30 limit... dam right silly.
lets face it who can honestly hold there hand up and say, in all your driving years you've never topped 120mph on a motorway ? and have you even done advanced driving test ?
yourself at 120mph as got be far more unsafe than this pc at 160mph....
(god forbid this to ever happen) but it does happen unfortunetely for some.....
now this copper is called to it... but hes say 15 miles away...
either.... he can fly 159mph down a stretch of motorway and hopefully get there in time
or does he go 80-90 take an extra 10 mins or so and in that time the car involved in the accident bursts into flames and kills all your loved ones !
???????????????
NOW THEN..... when its put across like that, you wud hope that officer knows his cars full limits and capabiltys so he can ensure a quick and safe arrival to the scene !
i think it was perfectly ok 159mph on the motorway... fair comment he should get his ********* ripped apart for the 80 in a 30 limit... dam right silly.
lets face it who can honestly hold there hand up and say, in all your driving years you've never topped 120mph on a motorway ? and have you even done advanced driving test ?
yourself at 120mph as got be far more unsafe than this pc at 160mph....
01 February 2006, 01:45 PM
#13
Originally Posted by PIE CJ
HOW I SEE IT.... set the scene, your parents or wife & children are involved in a serious crash... !
(god forbid this to ever happen) but it does happen unfortunetely for some.....
now this copper is called to it... but hes say 15 miles away...
either.... he can fly 159mph down a stretch of motorway and hopefully get there in time
or does he go 80-90 take an extra 10 mins or so and in that time the car involved in the accident bursts into flames and kills all your loved ones !
???????????????
NOW THEN..... when its put across like that, you wud hope that officer knows his cars full limits and capabiltys so he can ensure a quick and safe arrival to the scene !
i think it was perfectly ok 159mph on the motorway... fair comment he should get his ********* ripped apart for the 80 in a 30 limit... dam right silly.
lets face it who can honestly hold there hand up and say, in all your driving years you've never topped 120mph on a motorway ? and have you even done advanced driving test ?
yourself at 120mph as got be far more unsafe than this pc at 160mph....
(god forbid this to ever happen) but it does happen unfortunetely for some.....
now this copper is called to it... but hes say 15 miles away...
either.... he can fly 159mph down a stretch of motorway and hopefully get there in time
or does he go 80-90 take an extra 10 mins or so and in that time the car involved in the accident bursts into flames and kills all your loved ones !
???????????????
NOW THEN..... when its put across like that, you wud hope that officer knows his cars full limits and capabiltys so he can ensure a quick and safe arrival to the scene !
i think it was perfectly ok 159mph on the motorway... fair comment he should get his ********* ripped apart for the 80 in a 30 limit... dam right silly.
lets face it who can honestly hold there hand up and say, in all your driving years you've never topped 120mph on a motorway ? and have you even done advanced driving test ?
yourself at 120mph as got be far more unsafe than this pc at 160mph....
01 February 2006, 02:04 PM
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Very irresponsible..
Especially since he was 'familiarising' himself with the car. If it was a car he wasn't used to driving, and as such felt the need to 'familiarise' himself with it then he should've been doing it on a private road/track, not on the public highway and not at 159MPH.
Granted PIE CJ has a valid point, but you would assume that is an advanced driver who knows the car they are driving.
Especially since he was 'familiarising' himself with the car. If it was a car he wasn't used to driving, and as such felt the need to 'familiarise' himself with it then he should've been doing it on a private road/track, not on the public highway and not at 159MPH.
Granted PIE CJ has a valid point, but you would assume that is an advanced driver who knows the car they are driving.
01 February 2006, 02:08 PM
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If you're doing 160 mph I don't think it makes any difference if you've passed an advanced driving test, if something happens you haven't got a hope in hell of doing anything. If the police have to drive like this to familiarise themselves with their car they should do so on private test tracks. This copper sounds like a complete pratt who thought he was above the law. As for your family being involved in an accident, is he really going to get there any quicker because he's once driven at 159 mph. Of course he's not. Throw the book at him I say.
01 February 2006, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul3446
If you're doing 160 mph I don't think it makes any difference if you've passed an advanced driving test, if something happens you haven't got a hope in hell of doing anything. If the police have to drive like this to familiarise themselves with their car they should do so on private test tracks. This copper sounds like a complete pratt who thought he was above the law. As for your family being involved in an accident, is he really going to get there any quicker because he's once driven at 159 mph. Of course he's not. Throw the book at him I say.
lets face it we would all love to go and run a car at its limits!
i do with every car i buy
im just lucky i aint got a camera fitted thats on record !and i just hope my scenario never happens to you mate..... and the pc decides cruise along to the crash at 80 and turns up 10 mins tooo late to do anythingg to help !
01 February 2006, 02:23 PM
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Is 159mph dangerous. Yes without doubt there is some danger there.
However, the risk is quite small and I dont see a huge problem with it on a motorway as it will be limited to mechanical failure really.
Same with 80mph in a town, there is risk, a bit more than on a motorway but it should not be a major problem for the officer if he has had the right training and takes relevant actions i.e slowing down near junctions, parked cars, schools etc etc etc. As I have not seen the tape I cant comment on this case, but depending on his driving it should be guilty or not guilty as appropriate.
What I do have a problem with is tha standard of section (i.e panda) patrols driving these days. Its often very, very poor. They also do 80 mph in 30/40 limits, in fact much more often than traffic.
Only 10 years ago the average panda car or van was a very slow astra or transit, often a non turbo diesel with about 50bhp. Now they are quite often "decent" cars with common rail diesel engines and can be fairly quick. Has training changed to take this into account. Nope.
However, the risk is quite small and I dont see a huge problem with it on a motorway as it will be limited to mechanical failure really.
Same with 80mph in a town, there is risk, a bit more than on a motorway but it should not be a major problem for the officer if he has had the right training and takes relevant actions i.e slowing down near junctions, parked cars, schools etc etc etc. As I have not seen the tape I cant comment on this case, but depending on his driving it should be guilty or not guilty as appropriate.
What I do have a problem with is tha standard of section (i.e panda) patrols driving these days. Its often very, very poor. They also do 80 mph in 30/40 limits, in fact much more often than traffic.
Only 10 years ago the average panda car or van was a very slow astra or transit, often a non turbo diesel with about 50bhp. Now they are quite often "decent" cars with common rail diesel engines and can be fairly quick. Has training changed to take this into account. Nope.
01 February 2006, 02:25 PM
#18
Hate to pee on your scenario Pie CJ but according to last night's news on the subject, he's something to do with armed response. Unless your family just robbed a bank, he'd be unlikely to help them anyway.
There was a bloke done for speeding a while ago whilst delivering a donor organ to a hospital. I'd be happier for him to do 160 if it were for me
There was a bloke done for speeding a while ago whilst delivering a donor organ to a hospital. I'd be happier for him to do 160 if it were for me
01 February 2006, 02:38 PM
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My argument is, if he has once taken his car to 159 mph on a motorway, is he any more able to drive at those speeds again in an emergency. I don't think he is. I have no problem with police driving fast to go to an emergency at all, although it is something that has caused plenty of fatal accidents in the past, which is all the more reason to only do it when necessary. They must have facilities on private land to do this.
01 February 2006, 02:47 PM
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time for a rant... to me make me feel better
i wud feel a dam site better knowing a copper who is ranked one of the highest possible in driving standards is doing 160mph, than some jumped up *** head in a £3000 scooby who thinks he is a rally driver racing at 160mph !
its wrong yes, but he as to be the best person to be doing this !
i wud feel a dam site better knowing a copper who is ranked one of the highest possible in driving standards is doing 160mph, than some jumped up *** head in a £3000 scooby who thinks he is a rally driver racing at 160mph !
its wrong yes, but he as to be the best person to be doing this !
01 February 2006, 03:07 PM
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But the question here is do you think he should be practising on public roads, if you do then fair enough. But if you do then presumably you are sanctioning advanced Police drivers to drive like this whenever they like, all in the name of training.
01 February 2006, 03:11 PM
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no no no no no no no
If he wants to practise, go on a test track simluated to road conditions.....
thats it.....
No inbetween.........it's a case of them taking care of their own and it's beyond humour
If he wants to practise, go on a test track simluated to road conditions.....
thats it.....
No inbetween.........it's a case of them taking care of their own and it's beyond humour
01 February 2006, 03:15 PM
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IIRC....Ambulance driver got done for doing 100mph delivering an organ to a critical patient and is banned from driving and loses his job, copper does 160mph to 'test the car' and gets away scott free, where the logic in that?!?!? 
01 February 2006, 03:25 PM
#26
Driving to the scene of the hypothetical accident at 159mph, is dangerous full stop even on a motorway.
Even with sirens and lights on it only takes one person to pull out to the third lane at 70/80mph and where does this police car go??
The difference in a 15 mile journey at 100mph and 160mph is just over 3 minutes, by my admittedly rusty mathematics - not worth the risk IMO
Even with sirens and lights on it only takes one person to pull out to the third lane at 70/80mph and where does this police car go??
The difference in a 15 mile journey at 100mph and 160mph is just over 3 minutes, by my admittedly rusty mathematics - not worth the risk IMO
01 February 2006, 03:33 PM
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Lets be honest if you had a genuine reason for needing to do that sort of speed i.e someone seriously ill that you needed to get to see asap, you would still be banged to rights.
He should at least have put his lights on to let people around him know he was coming down the motorway at warp speed !.
In my opinion the speed limit on motorways needs overhauling anyway 70 mph is out dated for todays modern vehicles.
Cheers.
Mark.
He should at least have put his lights on to let people around him know he was coming down the motorway at warp speed !.
In my opinion the speed limit on motorways needs overhauling anyway 70 mph is out dated for todays modern vehicles.
Cheers.
Mark.
01 February 2006, 03:34 PM
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Which is why when doing BiB training you are told its better to arrive late than not at all.
However, the public expect the BiB to arrive to help them with their super powers at the speed of light.
However, the public expect the BiB to arrive to help them with their super powers at the speed of light.
01 February 2006, 04:08 PM
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from i i heard with this case is there is no such track to replicate a real screnario though ! out on the publice roads is the only real place to get the real feel of it !
its wrong that they get away with it. but face it THEY ARE THE POLICE AND THE POLICE MAKE THE RULES !
its wrong that they get away with it. but face it THEY ARE THE POLICE AND THE POLICE MAKE THE RULES !
01 February 2006, 04:08 PM
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That's just not the point; he wasn't on official training, there wasn't an emergency: He had no more right than you or I to do those speeds! I would agree if he was on police 'official training' or familiarisation; then fair enough they need to practice - but he wasn't. I'm sure I read that the guidelines for the police are never to exceed 120mph anyway.