Whose wreck @ Lavender Hill?
04 October 2000, 12:47 AM
#1
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OK, what happened?
I couldn't help noticing a DBM saloon with an "artistically rearranged" rear end sitting in Lavender Hill's yard on Sat - peeled open door skin, rear wheel pointing sideways, etc. Looked nasty! I hope everyone was alright.
There must be story in there somewhere!
(BTW - the reason I was there was to retrieve my baby - see "lift off oversteer strikes again" for the background. Re previous threads about repair quality, initial thoughts on Lavender Hill's work are very good - there are one or two minor points that they've promised to fix when it's back in for service - I'll update the BBS then)
I couldn't help noticing a DBM saloon with an "artistically rearranged" rear end sitting in Lavender Hill's yard on Sat - peeled open door skin, rear wheel pointing sideways, etc. Looked nasty! I hope everyone was alright.
There must be story in there somewhere!
(BTW - the reason I was there was to retrieve my baby - see "lift off oversteer strikes again" for the background. Re previous threads about repair quality, initial thoughts on Lavender Hill's work are very good - there are one or two minor points that they've promised to fix when it's back in for service - I'll update the BBS then)
04 October 2000, 05:09 PM
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I don't know about the other car, but I am very interested in your experience as I'm still trying to remember what happened to cause my crash.
All I can remember is trying to correct understeer round a corner. The next thing I remember is being taken from the car into an ambulance!
The distance between the corner and the tree I crashed into is only about 50 feet. The tree is on the left of the road and my car hit on the driver's side, and must have been travelling backwards. The road was very wet at the time.
From what you say in your earlier thread, if I was going too fast for the conditions, the car started to drift to the right, I corrected by steering (too much) to the left and changed from accelerator to brake, could the car have responded by driving the front wheels hard and flipping the car thru 180 degrees?
All I can remember is trying to correct understeer round a corner. The next thing I remember is being taken from the car into an ambulance!
The distance between the corner and the tree I crashed into is only about 50 feet. The tree is on the left of the road and my car hit on the driver's side, and must have been travelling backwards. The road was very wet at the time.
From what you say in your earlier thread, if I was going too fast for the conditions, the car started to drift to the right, I corrected by steering (too much) to the left and changed from accelerator to brake, could the car have responded by driving the front wheels hard and flipping the car thru 180 degrees?
04 October 2000, 06:20 PM
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Dippy
Sounds very similar - what you got would have been the second half of my problem - we both ended up in a situation where the rear was swinging, and, by slowing (me) or braking (you), plus over-correcting (both of us), the front tyres gripped, which just increased the pendulum effect over the rear to the point of no return.
It may be a blessing not to remember it - it's bloody frightening to realise there is nothing you can do any more & you're just along for the ride.
The irony is I was looking at doing "Wetter the Better" even before it happened...
Sounds very similar - what you got would have been the second half of my problem - we both ended up in a situation where the rear was swinging, and, by slowing (me) or braking (you), plus over-correcting (both of us), the front tyres gripped, which just increased the pendulum effect over the rear to the point of no return.
It may be a blessing not to remember it - it's bloody frightening to realise there is nothing you can do any more & you're just along for the ride.
The irony is I was looking at doing "Wetter the Better" even before it happened...
04 October 2000, 10:33 PM
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Hi,
Sorry to hear about your accidents guys but I'm glad your OK.
I know this isn't going to be much consolation (sp?) but you should definitly go on the 'Wetter the Better' course. You will find that you can recover a Scooby from 120-130 degrees (basically going backwards). And that the last thing you do is back off the power as this is the only thing that keeps a Scooby stable in a corner.
DaveW
Sorry to hear about your accidents guys but I'm glad your OK.
I know this isn't going to be much consolation (sp?) but you should definitly go on the 'Wetter the Better' course. You will find that you can recover a Scooby from 120-130 degrees (basically going backwards). And that the last thing you do is back off the power as this is the only thing that keeps a Scooby stable in a corner.
DaveW
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05 October 2000, 01:13 PM
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Thanks Justin & Miles,
It does make me feel better knowing what happened. Clearly I took the corner too fast - it is ironic that had I been competent to control the skid, the Scoob would have recovered admirably, but as I was incompetent (?) it made the situation a lot worse! Seems to me there's a double-edged sword here.
Wetter the Better seems like a must to me. Am I right in assuming that the course involves driving your own car?
It does make me feel better knowing what happened. Clearly I took the corner too fast - it is ironic that had I been competent to control the skid, the Scoob would have recovered admirably, but as I was incompetent (?) it made the situation a lot worse! Seems to me there's a double-edged sword here.
Wetter the Better seems like a must to me. Am I right in assuming that the course involves driving your own car?
05 October 2000, 01:36 PM
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Were these completely standard cars?? I've just had a thought remembering back to the alleged handling problems of the Merc A-class and Audi TT that attracted much publicity and eventually, design changes. These problems were at the limit of the handling envelope, but were still considered important
So...if standard Scoobs have vicious enough lift-off oversteer (or vicious enough brake-induced oversteer, which might be considered to be a natural reaction to an average driver) to put cars into ditches, isn't this the same sort of problem that Merc and Audi had...
...or are we just cr$p drivers?
...or is it just our fault for buying such cars?
I'd be interested in your views. Have Airmiles and Dippy thought about claiming from IM, since their product might be fundamentally faulty/unfit for purpose?...like the current Bridgestone/Ford Exploder
class action in the States?
Not flaming or trying to tell anyone that Scoobs are hopeless - just thinking out loud really
Martin (MY00 and its brilliant
)
[This message has been edited by MartinM (edited 05 October 2000).]
So...if standard Scoobs have vicious enough lift-off oversteer (or vicious enough brake-induced oversteer, which might be considered to be a natural reaction to an average driver) to put cars into ditches, isn't this the same sort of problem that Merc and Audi had...
...or are we just cr$p drivers?
...or is it just our fault for buying such cars?
I'd be interested in your views. Have Airmiles and Dippy thought about claiming from IM, since their product might be fundamentally faulty/unfit for purpose?...like the current Bridgestone/Ford Exploder
class action in the States?Not flaming or trying to tell anyone that Scoobs are hopeless - just thinking out loud really
Martin (MY00 and its brilliant
)[This message has been edited by MartinM (edited 05 October 2000).]
05 October 2000, 02:36 PM
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Sorry to hear about your accident Dippy, I my myself drive fast, and hope I will never have one.
HOWEVER
Reading this Dippy describes exactly the problems my brother has. However there is another problem that you have missed, and maybe why you had the accident.
The imprezas you drive have a mechanical central diff, the ones they rally have a fully electric diff.
What my brother finds, is that due to the mechanical diff, the front wheels do not have enough power out of a corner. This is due to the mechanical central diff, not transferring power from back to front quick enough. He finds this contributes to the under steer problem. It also encourages the back to brake loose.
His car is modified (specs given), but in standard form he says it wasn’t even safe. Prodrive had this car twice, and never managed to sort it, also Prodrive never mentioned the bump steer mod.
It's a joke all that money. On my modified Cav I have no under steer, no over steer, and nothings hidden. I know exactly where the limit is, and driver confidence is extremely high. Certainly nothing sudden or unexpected happens!
And before you say I’m on a wind up, try telling that to someone that’s far from happy with a £25k+ car! Must admit, if not hearing it first hand would find it difficult to believe!
[This message has been edited by JasonM (edited 05 October 2000).]
HOWEVER
Reading this Dippy describes exactly the problems my brother has. However there is another problem that you have missed, and maybe why you had the accident.
The imprezas you drive have a mechanical central diff, the ones they rally have a fully electric diff.
What my brother finds, is that due to the mechanical diff, the front wheels do not have enough power out of a corner. This is due to the mechanical central diff, not transferring power from back to front quick enough. He finds this contributes to the under steer problem. It also encourages the back to brake loose.
His car is modified (specs given), but in standard form he says it wasn’t even safe. Prodrive had this car twice, and never managed to sort it, also Prodrive never mentioned the bump steer mod.
It's a joke all that money. On my modified Cav I have no under steer, no over steer, and nothings hidden. I know exactly where the limit is, and driver confidence is extremely high. Certainly nothing sudden or unexpected happens!
And before you say I’m on a wind up, try telling that to someone that’s far from happy with a £25k+ car! Must admit, if not hearing it first hand would find it difficult to believe!
[This message has been edited by JasonM (edited 05 October 2000).]
05 October 2000, 02:55 PM
#12
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Sorry To Hear about the accident any damage to any one cars is not nice be scooby RS or reliant robin.
Jason M - yer just dont give up do you
When my RST becomes too old and decide to change it.No Cossie or Scooby for me its got to be a Cavalier.
My car has no understeer no oversteer well perhaps if you took it off the scalectrix track it might.
les
[This message has been edited by lessles (edited 05 October 2000).]
Jason M - yer just dont give up do you
When my RST becomes too old and decide to change it.No Cossie or Scooby for me its got to be a Cavalier.
My car has no understeer no oversteer well perhaps if you took it off the scalectrix track it might.
les
[This message has been edited by lessles (edited 05 October 2000).]
05 October 2000, 03:00 PM
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Dippy,
I have done exactly the same thing as you only I do remember hitting the tree and luckily walked a way completely unhurt. Where exactly did you have your crash, as you seem pretty local to me?
I have done exactly the same thing as you only I do remember hitting the tree and luckily walked a way completely unhurt. Where exactly did you have your crash, as you seem pretty local to me?
05 October 2000, 03:04 PM
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Les
If your car don't under steer, then why do half of Impreza drives say they do?
Also I take it your not aware of the mechanical central diff problem?
[This message has been edited by JasonM (edited 05 October 2000).]
If your car don't under steer, then why do half of Impreza drives say they do?
Also I take it your not aware of the mechanical central diff problem?
[This message has been edited by JasonM (edited 05 October 2000).]
05 October 2000, 03:20 PM
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MartinM,
Like it or not, people make mistakes and ultimately drivers are in control.
I don't think the Impreza has a fundamental handling flaw at all, quite the opposite in fact. It's active safety is about as good as it could be.
Obviously I won't speculate on the causes of these accidents, but no one could say 'you had that crash because you were in an Impreza'. Who can say what would have happened in another car? Possibly you would have simply understeered off the road head on into a tree...
An interesting point is that an 'on the limit' handling course like the wetter the better is more frequently applicable than you might think...
As for a product liability, I detest the mentality that says that anything that goes wrong is someone or something elses fault... (no offence MartinM). There is absolutely nothing to suggest that there is a hidden design flaw or that it is unfit for purpose. There are obviously instances where products have design faults which put their users at risk (exploding pinto fuel tanks etc), and it is right that manufacturers accept liability in these cases but IHMO neither of these incidents falls into that sort of category.
JasonM, Can I suggest that that your brother also attends a driving course along the lines of the wetter the better?. Most drivers would get more performance by improving their skills than by fiddling with their suspension.
No offense again, but your brother's understanding of how 4WD hardware works is way off base 'my brother finds... etc etc'. It simply doesn't work that way - Torque split is 50/50 F/R in Imprezas. The center diff redirects power in less than half a second - speed of reaction isn't the reason they use electronically controlled diffs on the rally car.
If you're for real, this misunderstanding may be contributing to his problems. To say that standard car is unsafe... well... having experienced what a 'standard' car can do in the right hands (take a bow Don Palmer, Simon de Banke) it is as safe or dangerous as the driver allows, but 4WD gives you a lot of options which aren't open to 2WD cars provided you know what to expect and the techniques to use...
Your brother might have learned something very useful for only 5% of what he has spent on mods....
Cheers,
Alex
[This message has been edited by AlexM (edited 05 October 2000).]
Like it or not, people make mistakes and ultimately drivers are in control.
I don't think the Impreza has a fundamental handling flaw at all, quite the opposite in fact. It's active safety is about as good as it could be.
Obviously I won't speculate on the causes of these accidents, but no one could say 'you had that crash because you were in an Impreza'. Who can say what would have happened in another car? Possibly you would have simply understeered off the road head on into a tree...
An interesting point is that an 'on the limit' handling course like the wetter the better is more frequently applicable than you might think...
As for a product liability, I detest the mentality that says that anything that goes wrong is someone or something elses fault... (no offence MartinM). There is absolutely nothing to suggest that there is a hidden design flaw or that it is unfit for purpose. There are obviously instances where products have design faults which put their users at risk (exploding pinto fuel tanks etc), and it is right that manufacturers accept liability in these cases but IHMO neither of these incidents falls into that sort of category.
JasonM, Can I suggest that that your brother also attends a driving course along the lines of the wetter the better?. Most drivers would get more performance by improving their skills than by fiddling with their suspension.
No offense again, but your brother's understanding of how 4WD hardware works is way off base 'my brother finds... etc etc'. It simply doesn't work that way - Torque split is 50/50 F/R in Imprezas. The center diff redirects power in less than half a second - speed of reaction isn't the reason they use electronically controlled diffs on the rally car.
If you're for real, this misunderstanding may be contributing to his problems. To say that standard car is unsafe... well... having experienced what a 'standard' car can do in the right hands (take a bow Don Palmer, Simon de Banke) it is as safe or dangerous as the driver allows, but 4WD gives you a lot of options which aren't open to 2WD cars provided you know what to expect and the techniques to use...
Your brother might have learned something very useful for only 5% of what he has spent on mods....
Cheers,
Alex
[This message has been edited by AlexM (edited 05 October 2000).]
05 October 2000, 03:32 PM
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Well, mine was completely standard (and still is!).
It did cross my mind later "would this have happened with Audi's ESP?" (I nearly bought an S3) - but I thought that mainly dealt with mistakes under power or braking, rather than engine-braking.
However, your post re: the centre diff has rather got me thinking again about that - presumably a gizmo that twiddled the centre diff could affect this, but never eliminate it. After all, FWD cars suffer LOOS too. Anybody know differently? What do skylines/Porsche Turbo 4x4s do? Sounds like a job for jfelstead!!
And no, I wasn't thinking of sueing IM, but I will go on WTB.
At the end of the day, I walked away, no-one else was involved, and I learned a lesson. I think that counts as in the black!
It did cross my mind later "would this have happened with Audi's ESP?" (I nearly bought an S3) - but I thought that mainly dealt with mistakes under power or braking, rather than engine-braking.
However, your post re: the centre diff has rather got me thinking again about that - presumably a gizmo that twiddled the centre diff could affect this, but never eliminate it. After all, FWD cars suffer LOOS too. Anybody know differently? What do skylines/Porsche Turbo 4x4s do? Sounds like a job for jfelstead!!
And no, I wasn't thinking of sueing IM, but I will go on WTB.
At the end of the day, I walked away, no-one else was involved, and I learned a lesson. I think that counts as in the black!
05 October 2000, 03:58 PM
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Alex,
I appreciate your sensible post, but it’s not my brothers driving, although I agree some drivers prefer different car set-ups.
The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. Thanks for admitting these have a mechanical diff over the rally electric version. The rally cars use a electric diff so they can adjust the power ratio for the corners. This is mainly why they can turn, and slide so good on corners.
However do you realise what can happen in 0.5 second when doing 80,90,100+ on the apex of a corner! Even if it was say 1/3 second it’s just to slow. According to him it’s the biggest problem with the car. Makes sense, as for all the suspension changes, & Prodrive looking at it, it’s still not right!
I appreciate your sensible post, but it’s not my brothers driving, although I agree some drivers prefer different car set-ups.
The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. Thanks for admitting these have a mechanical diff over the rally electric version. The rally cars use a electric diff so they can adjust the power ratio for the corners. This is mainly why they can turn, and slide so good on corners.
However do you realise what can happen in 0.5 second when doing 80,90,100+ on the apex of a corner! Even if it was say 1/3 second it’s just to slow. According to him it’s the biggest problem with the car. Makes sense, as for all the suspension changes, & Prodrive looking at it, it’s still not right!
05 October 2000, 04:02 PM
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The whole Lift off oversteer, power on understeer mainly revolves around weight transfer. (There are exception, i.e. power oversteer where you have already lit up the rears...)
This happens on FWD, RWD and 4WD. it all depends on the conditions.
The key is whether you can recover from it... 4WD really gives you an edge here because if everything has let go then the car *will* turn in the direction that you aim it. This doesn't mean that the car will move in that direction, but it does mean you can poke in some vectors that will move you in a more desireable direction. It's all about slip angles then.
If you have to think about it, it's already too late. But if you look at serious stage drivers you'll notice that these guy's are already aiming the car and getting the wheels straight way before any form of apex.
The other key with 4WD is wheel power load and how it affects the slip angles of the tyres. 2WD inherently loads the wheels more than 4WD so you will get more angle at the driven end. BUT IF YOU ARE ALREADY ON THE LIMIT IT ALL MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. You had just better have set it up riht in the first place
This happens on FWD, RWD and 4WD. it all depends on the conditions.
The key is whether you can recover from it... 4WD really gives you an edge here because if everything has let go then the car *will* turn in the direction that you aim it. This doesn't mean that the car will move in that direction, but it does mean you can poke in some vectors that will move you in a more desireable direction. It's all about slip angles then.
If you have to think about it, it's already too late. But if you look at serious stage drivers you'll notice that these guy's are already aiming the car and getting the wheels straight way before any form of apex.
The other key with 4WD is wheel power load and how it affects the slip angles of the tyres. 2WD inherently loads the wheels more than 4WD so you will get more angle at the driven end. BUT IF YOU ARE ALREADY ON THE LIMIT IT ALL MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. You had just better have set it up riht in the first place
05 October 2000, 04:04 PM
#21
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Jason
If he that unhappy with why does he not just sell the blOOdy thing.Has he never heard of a test drive before buying a car.
les
[This message has been edited by lessles (edited 05 October 2000).]
If he that unhappy with why does he not just sell the blOOdy thing.Has he never heard of a test drive before buying a car.
les
[This message has been edited by lessles (edited 05 October 2000).]
05 October 2000, 04:22 PM
#22
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If you think the Impreza has problems with lift-off oversteer you should try driving something like a Saxo VTR/S. Lifting off, never mind breaking, while going round a bend will result in the tail becoming very light at which point you accelerate or end up facing the wrong direction.
There is nothing wrong with this, just like there is nothing wrong with the Impreza having this trait.
Would you prefer going into a corner too quickly and finding that when you brake the car just continues understeering (probably into the nearest available ditch) at least with lift-off overteer if the driver knows about it they can try to save themselves from a visit into the vegitation.
Just my opinion of course.
There is nothing wrong with this, just like there is nothing wrong with the Impreza having this trait.
Would you prefer going into a corner too quickly and finding that when you brake the car just continues understeering (probably into the nearest available ditch) at least with lift-off overteer if the driver knows about it they can try to save themselves from a visit into the vegitation.
Just my opinion of course.
05 October 2000, 04:25 PM
#23
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AlexM
(..and this is the 5 minute discussion, not the half-hour argument)
Yep, all cars are subject to the laws of physics, but I suspect all car manfs. have some sort of responsibility that their standard product out-of-the-box will not exhibit dangerous behaviour when driven by Joe Public.
The A-class problem was quite black and white - if you/anyone did this elk-avoiding manoeuvre, the vehicle would fall over. The TT problem IIRC was that in *some* situations *some* drivers couldn't handle the on the limit behaviour, so they changed the design.
...But OTOH, stamping on the throttle in a Griffith 500 will turn it 180 degrees in its own length near enough - and everyone accepts that 'cos that's just the way they are.
I guess its a fine line at the end of the day (!) - if the Scoob had to have the lift-off oversteer removed, maybe it wouldn't be able to be AWD and we'd all go buy something else
<<...I detest the mentality that says that anything that goes wrong is someone or something elses fault..>> Agree absolutely/ completely/fully - maybe I missed a smiley out 'cos it was a bit tongue in cheek. There are, allegedly, many ex-TVR owners 9I know one) who got rid just because they thought the car was too damn dangerous in the wet.
Martin
(..and this is the 5 minute discussion, not the half-hour argument
)Yep, all cars are subject to the laws of physics, but I suspect all car manfs. have some sort of responsibility that their standard product out-of-the-box will not exhibit dangerous behaviour when driven by Joe Public.
The A-class problem was quite black and white - if you/anyone did this elk-avoiding manoeuvre, the vehicle would fall over. The TT problem IIRC was that in *some* situations *some* drivers couldn't handle the on the limit behaviour, so they changed the design.
...But OTOH, stamping on the throttle in a Griffith 500 will turn it 180 degrees in its own length near enough - and everyone accepts that 'cos that's just the way they are.
I guess its a fine line at the end of the day (!) - if the Scoob had to have the lift-off oversteer removed, maybe it wouldn't be able to be AWD and we'd all go buy something else
<<...I detest the mentality that says that anything that goes wrong is someone or something elses fault..>> Agree absolutely/ completely/fully - maybe I missed a smiley out 'cos it was a bit tongue in cheek. There are, allegedly, many ex-TVR owners 9I know one) who got rid just because they thought the car was too damn dangerous in the wet.
Martin
05 October 2000, 06:31 PM
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JasonM,
Just thought I'd mention how much I enjoyed your joke... it really made my day... I really must quote it, so that others can share in the mirth... hope that's ok, m8.
Here goes, bear with me, I'll try to keep a straight face whilst writing it down...
"The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. "
hehehehe...
Moray
(Oh, and don't even get me started on mechanical centre diffs..... hehe he hehe)
Just thought I'd mention how much I enjoyed your joke... it really made my day... I really must quote it, so that others can share in the mirth... hope that's ok, m8.
Here goes, bear with me, I'll try to keep a straight face whilst writing it down
..."The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. "
hehehehe...
Moray
(Oh, and don't even get me started on mechanical centre diffs..... hehe he hehe)
05 October 2000, 06:33 PM
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JasonM,
Just thought I'd mention how much I enjoyed your joke... it really made my day... I really must quote it, so that others can share in the mirth... hope that's ok, m8.
Here goes, bear with me, I'll try to keep a straight face whilst writing it down...
"The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. "
hehehehe...
Moray
(Oh, and don't even get me started on mechanical centre diffs..... hehe he hehe)
Just thought I'd mention how much I enjoyed your joke... it really made my day... I really must quote it, so that others can share in the mirth... hope that's ok, m8.
Here goes, bear with me, I'll try to keep a straight face whilst writing it down
..."The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. "
hehehehe...
Moray
(Oh, and don't even get me started on mechanical centre diffs..... hehe he hehe)
05 October 2000, 06:34 PM
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JasonM,
Just thought I'd mention how much I enjoyed your joke... it really made my day... I really must quote it, so that others can share in the mirth... hope that's ok, m8.
Here goes, bear with me, I'll try to keep a straight face whilst writing it down...
"The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. "
hehehehe...
Moray
(Oh, and don't even get me started on mechanical centre diffs..... hehe he hehe)
Just thought I'd mention how much I enjoyed your joke... it really made my day... I really must quote it, so that others can share in the mirth... hope that's ok, m8.
Here goes, bear with me, I'll try to keep a straight face whilst writing it down
..."The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. "
hehehehe...
Moray
(Oh, and don't even get me started on mechanical centre diffs..... hehe he hehe)
05 October 2000, 06:35 PM
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JasonM,
Just thought I'd mention how much I enjoyed your joke... it really made my day... I really must quote it, so that others can share in the mirth... hope that's ok, m8.
Here goes, bear with me, I'll try to keep a straight face whilst writing it down...
"The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. "
hehehehe...
Moray
(Oh, and don't even get me started on the electric differential one..... hehe he hehe)
Just thought I'd mention how much I enjoyed your joke... it really made my day... I really must quote it, so that others can share in the mirth... hope that's ok, m8.
Here goes, bear with me, I'll try to keep a straight face whilst writing it down
..."The power transfer is not 50/50 is more like 70 front, 30 rear. Only the P1 runs 50/50. "
hehehehe...
Moray
(Oh, and don't even get me started on the electric differential one..... hehe he hehe)
05 October 2000, 07:56 PM
#28
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Most Peugeot's are set up to lift off oversteer, 306 especially, thats what makes them fun.
The big difference with the Impreza is the speed you are going when it reaches its limits.
I suspect the Impreza Turbo's chassis would cope well with the Cav's 130bhp.
Cheers
Lee
The big difference with the Impreza is the speed you are going when it reaches its limits.
I suspect the Impreza Turbo's chassis would cope well with the Cav's 130bhp.
Cheers
Lee
05 October 2000, 07:58 PM
#29
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JasonM:
<B>What my brother finds, is that due to the mechanical diff, the front wheels do not have enough power out of a corner. This is due to the mechanical central diff, not transferring power from back to front quick enough. He finds this contributes to the under steer problem. It also encourages the back to brake loose.[/quote]
Hiya Jason Let me recap to make sure I understand here - part of the understeer the scoob is suffering from, is due to the power not getting to the front quick enough - which also, encourages the back to break lose. It's amazing that RWD cars stay on the road at all
I've enjoyed reading your posts over the past few weeks, and have finally given in and taken the bait, as you seem to be misleading some people.
MartinM - the A class would turn over if driven properly - all other cars will understeer or oversteer if provoked enough, but this is not the same thing.
Airmiles - if only Jason's post re centre diff had got Jason thinking too
<B>What my brother finds, is that due to the mechanical diff, the front wheels do not have enough power out of a corner. This is due to the mechanical central diff, not transferring power from back to front quick enough. He finds this contributes to the under steer problem. It also encourages the back to brake loose.[/quote]
Hiya Jason
Let me recap to make sure I understand here - part of the understeer the scoob is suffering from, is due to the power not getting to the front quick enough - which also, encourages the back to break lose. It's amazing that RWD cars stay on the road at all I've enjoyed reading your posts over the past few weeks, and have finally given in and taken the bait, as you seem to be misleading some people.
MartinM - the A class would turn over if driven properly - all other cars will understeer or oversteer if provoked enough, but this is not the same thing.
Airmiles - if only Jason's post re centre diff had got Jason thinking too
05 October 2000, 08:43 PM
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Hi Again,
Sorry all - should have prefaced my message with due sympathy to those have had a mishap.
Another factor exagerating LOOS on some 4WD cars is that you get engine braking on both axles, which makes weight transfer more extreme, and also reduces available lateral grip at the rear by applying a braking force.
All perfectly manageable if you know what to expect... but...
JasonM - you're wrong about the torque split ALL UK cars (possibly except P1) have 50/50 split. Torque moves AWAY from the axle that has lost grip, i.e If the rear starts to oversteer under power, the speed difference between the front and rear (rears rotating faster) moves torque to the FRONT axle.
BTW, I stand by my comments re driving course. If your brother is serious about knowing what his car can do, he will never find out by only driving it on the road... trust me. It is nothing like driving a FWD car at all, and really needs some unusual techniques to get the best out of it. If he thinks his driving is beyond improvement.. well... think again.
At worst he would have an excellent laugh.
CharliePsycho is spot on...The key to using 4WD to add or remove oversteer is to predict and lead the car, not follow it.
Airmiles - you might be right about ESP... CharliePsycho is right though, it is all about weight transfer, and how you manage it.
MartinM - you're right about 'dangerous' handling characteristics like the a-class had. This can be (and was) engineered out. At the end of the day drivers still crash every car that has ever been built, and nothing can be done to prevent that... I think any car with the performance potential has to be treated with respect. Some are more benign than others, and the Impreza is definatly at the same end of the spectrum.
Safer for everyone (in this context) usually means more understeer and inert handling.
Cheers,
Alex
Sorry all - should have prefaced my message with due sympathy to those have had a mishap.
Another factor exagerating LOOS on some 4WD cars is that you get engine braking on both axles, which makes weight transfer more extreme, and also reduces available lateral grip at the rear by applying a braking force.
All perfectly manageable if you know what to expect... but...
JasonM - you're wrong about the torque split ALL UK cars (possibly except P1) have 50/50 split. Torque moves AWAY from the axle that has lost grip, i.e If the rear starts to oversteer under power, the speed difference between the front and rear (rears rotating faster) moves torque to the FRONT axle.
BTW, I stand by my comments re driving course. If your brother is serious about knowing what his car can do, he will never find out by only driving it on the road... trust me. It is nothing like driving a FWD car at all, and really needs some unusual techniques to get the best out of it. If he thinks his driving is beyond improvement.. well... think again.
At worst he would have an excellent laugh.
CharliePsycho is spot on...The key to using 4WD to add or remove oversteer is to predict and lead the car, not follow it.
Airmiles - you might be right about ESP... CharliePsycho is right though, it is all about weight transfer, and how you manage it.
MartinM - you're right about 'dangerous' handling characteristics like the a-class had. This can be (and was) engineered out. At the end of the day drivers still crash every car that has ever been built, and nothing can be done to prevent that... I think any car with the performance potential has to be treated with respect. Some are more benign than others, and the Impreza is definatly at the same end of the spectrum.
Safer for everyone (in this context) usually means more understeer and inert handling.
Cheers,
Alex