Is this technically "Sales of Goods Act"
01 July 2005, 02:01 PM
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Is this technically "Sales of Goods Act"
As has recently been uncovered, the WRX300 is actually a WRX Turbo on the logbook, wheras the WR1 and UK300 are registered correctly. It has raised a couple of questions about Subaru's marketing of vehicles which I am a little concerned about.
Now before anyone slags this post off, I love the car, in fact first service was yesterday so its gonna get some pain this weekend. As such I have no intention of binning the car or anything drastic, but am just interested what people's perspectives are.
I bought a WRX300, was told by the dealer that it would be registered as such, and by Subaru Insured that provided it was registered as such, most insurers would rate it as a standard model = an unmodified car as PPP and the cosmetic bits are included as standard.
So two months after ordering, and nearly a month after collection, I have already had to insure it as a modified car, and now find that despite the marketing, in fact it is not a WRX300 on the V5 and is therefore just a tarted up WRX with PPP rather than a special edition. (lots of humble pie here as I think I gave someone a bit of grief about this a week ago).
I am a bit miffed that I will have to declare it as modified every time I insure it. I'm also a bit miffed that one of the reasons I chose this above a different Impreza, was that come selling time, the car would be attractive to many because it is the only WRX which came with PPP as standard, meaning more prospective buyers from the insurance perspective.
As I undertook to buy an unmodified car, eg manufacturers standard spec for that model, even though the car is as described, gold wheels, ppp etc etc, surely this is still technically a breach when it turns out that the car is in fact modified and not factory spec. I understand the issues with type approval but they managed it with the WR1, so why not with this?
Its not strictly the same, but I imagine you WR1 owners being a bit peeved if I could buy a STI, make it look like your WR1, bang on a PPP and interior and pass it off/sell it as a WR1 because your logbook just says the same as any other STI. Your residuals would go through the floor.
Now before anyone slags this post off, I love the car, in fact first service was yesterday so its gonna get some pain this weekend. As such I have no intention of binning the car or anything drastic, but am just interested what people's perspectives are.
I bought a WRX300, was told by the dealer that it would be registered as such, and by Subaru Insured that provided it was registered as such, most insurers would rate it as a standard model = an unmodified car as PPP and the cosmetic bits are included as standard.
So two months after ordering, and nearly a month after collection, I have already had to insure it as a modified car, and now find that despite the marketing, in fact it is not a WRX300 on the V5 and is therefore just a tarted up WRX with PPP rather than a special edition. (lots of humble pie here as I think I gave someone a bit of grief about this a week ago).
I am a bit miffed that I will have to declare it as modified every time I insure it. I'm also a bit miffed that one of the reasons I chose this above a different Impreza, was that come selling time, the car would be attractive to many because it is the only WRX which came with PPP as standard, meaning more prospective buyers from the insurance perspective.
As I undertook to buy an unmodified car, eg manufacturers standard spec for that model, even though the car is as described, gold wheels, ppp etc etc, surely this is still technically a breach when it turns out that the car is in fact modified and not factory spec. I understand the issues with type approval but they managed it with the WR1, so why not with this?
Its not strictly the same, but I imagine you WR1 owners being a bit peeved if I could buy a STI, make it look like your WR1, bang on a PPP and interior and pass it off/sell it as a WR1 because your logbook just says the same as any other STI. Your residuals would go through the floor.
Last edited by jbwrx300; 01 July 2005 at 02:05 PM.
01 July 2005, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jbwrx300
I bought a WRX300, was told by the dealer that it would be registered as such, and by Subaru Insured that provided it was registered as such, most insurers would rate it as a standard model = an unmodified car as PPP and the cosmetic bits are included as standard.
01 July 2005, 03:21 PM
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Trading standards response below. Seems Subaru may have dropped a bollock here!
Dear Mr. .....,
Thank you for your e-mail. I am sorry to hear about the problem with your new vehicle.
First of all, whether the car has been misdescribed would ultimately be a question for a Court to decide if a solution cannot be reached. Like you have stated, the car has not been misdescribed in terms of its physical characteristics. However, I think you have a case because you specifically asked Robinsons whether the car was an official model and they said that it was. I do not think that the facts are enough for this department to take any enforcement action because the description would have to be 'false to a material degree'. This does not affect your right to take an action in the civil courts.
In terms of liability, it would be Robinsons who are liable because it is they who you have your contract with. Even though Subaru have misdescribed the vehicle in advertisements, the law states that the seller, i.e. Robinsons, are responsible for manufacturers statements. You should therefore write to Robinsons, detailing your complaint.
If you have bought the car on finance or used a credit card to pay for part of the sale, you should send a copy to the credit company as they will have equal liability.
If the car has been misdescribed, you could seek a full refund, depending on the length of time you have had it. However, in these sorts of cases, it is often better to seek compensation to cover your additional costs/ loss in value.
Dear Mr. .....,
Thank you for your e-mail. I am sorry to hear about the problem with your new vehicle.
First of all, whether the car has been misdescribed would ultimately be a question for a Court to decide if a solution cannot be reached. Like you have stated, the car has not been misdescribed in terms of its physical characteristics. However, I think you have a case because you specifically asked Robinsons whether the car was an official model and they said that it was. I do not think that the facts are enough for this department to take any enforcement action because the description would have to be 'false to a material degree'. This does not affect your right to take an action in the civil courts.
In terms of liability, it would be Robinsons who are liable because it is they who you have your contract with. Even though Subaru have misdescribed the vehicle in advertisements, the law states that the seller, i.e. Robinsons, are responsible for manufacturers statements. You should therefore write to Robinsons, detailing your complaint.
If you have bought the car on finance or used a credit card to pay for part of the sale, you should send a copy to the credit company as they will have equal liability.
If the car has been misdescribed, you could seek a full refund, depending on the length of time you have had it. However, in these sorts of cases, it is often better to seek compensation to cover your additional costs/ loss in value.
01 July 2005, 03:33 PM
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I think you should hold your horses for a bit longer....
We need to establish exactly what the DVLA has on record first. There must be something there as how would the insurers be getting the details on the model? At the moment I am leaning towards an error in registration rather than being sold down the garden path.
That said I will be really pissed off if I have to declare the PPP. I would have just bought an STI instead (and probably a JDM!!)
We need to establish exactly what the DVLA has on record first. There must be something there as how would the insurers be getting the details on the model? At the moment I am leaning towards an error in registration rather than being sold down the garden path.
That said I will be really pissed off if I have to declare the PPP. I would have just bought an STI instead (and probably a JDM!!)
01 July 2005, 03:35 PM
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Can totally understand your anger mate. I too would be peeved off having to say it's modded every time you insure it, and like you say, anyone can tart up their WRX and say it a WRX300.
Unfortunately, I don't think there will be anything you can do about it. Subaru won't give a sh*t, they've got your money. It is strange why they could do it with the WR1 though, and not the WRX300.
Unfortunately, I don't think there will be anything you can do about it. Subaru won't give a sh*t, they've got your money. It is strange why they could do it with the WR1 though, and not the WRX300.
01 July 2005, 03:36 PM
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AFAIK, what "model" shows on the V5 reg form means little. My own V5, shows Subaru. Thats it. No model, nothing else.
From this, I would gather that they are not that fussed what is shown as the model on the V5. Therefore, when Subaru reg'd the car, may be a typo somewhere.
Send your V5 back, stating the correct model information. Job done.
From this, I would gather that they are not that fussed what is shown as the model on the V5. Therefore, when Subaru reg'd the car, may be a typo somewhere.
Send your V5 back, stating the correct model information. Job done.
01 July 2005, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckrogers
Send your V5 back, stating the correct model information. Job done.
I know the insurers found out about the vehicle as the press pack was sent out to all insurers the week 'AFTER' launch, and many have based their rates on this recently. Just wait until they find out that it is a modified. wrx.
Fortunately I insured mine as a modded motor in the early days so if I prang it I should be ok, but some are saying WRX300 with Privilige and Elephant is cheaper than a standard WRX. I would not like to be insured with them unless they spelled out exactly what they understand by WRX300 - as I found that a lot of insurers - Subaru Insured included confuse it as the UK300 which was not PPP'd.
"A WRX300 sir, no we have never heard of one of those"
I'm already sick of hearing it.
Last edited by jbwrx300; 01 July 2005 at 03:51 PM.
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01 July 2005, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckrogers
AFAIK, what "model" shows on the V5 reg form means little. My own V5, shows Subaru. Thats it. No model, nothing else.
From this, I would gather that they are not that fussed what is shown as the model on the V5. Therefore, when Subaru reg'd the car, may be a typo somewhere.
Send your V5 back, stating the correct model information. Job done.
From this, I would gather that they are not that fussed what is shown as the model on the V5. Therefore, when Subaru reg'd the car, may be a typo somewhere.
Send your V5 back, stating the correct model information. Job done.
01 July 2005, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Marky9074
Just rung IM....mine is down as a:
Impreza 3
WRX Turbo 300
Impreza 3
WRX Turbo 300
Thinking about this - when the dealer (yes the dealer does the registration on a computer, I watched him do most of it) is registering the VIN against the reg plate, he is asked to select a model, they cannot type in free format, and therefore must use a drop down box which is a list of the models the DVLA knows about.
Thus WRX300 is not on the DVLA database and thus surely legally does not exist.
01 July 2005, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jbwrx300
That is to be expected and good to hear.
Thinking about this - when the dealer (yes the dealer does the registration on a computer, I watched him do most of it) is registering the VIN against the reg plate, he is asked to select a model, they cannot type in free format, and therefore must use a drop down box which is a list of the models the DVLA knows about.
Thus WRX300 is not on the DVLA database and thus surely legally does not exist.
Thinking about this - when the dealer (yes the dealer does the registration on a computer, I watched him do most of it) is registering the VIN against the reg plate, he is asked to select a model, they cannot type in free format, and therefore must use a drop down box which is a list of the models the DVLA knows about.
Thus WRX300 is not on the DVLA database and thus surely legally does not exist.
01 July 2005, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Marky9074
I agree, but....how have the insurers got it on their systems? They surely get the models from the DVLA and as we have seen quite some time after inception!
01 July 2005, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Marky9074
There is no option to change the Make or Model on the V5
The last Import Evo 6 I had was down as just a Mitsubishi, A short letter to the dvla with the correct model details sorted that, they checked with Mitsubishi and 3 weeks later the v5 came back with MITSUBISHI LANCER EVO VI, 4Dr Saloon on there.
Give it a try...
01 July 2005, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Marky9074
There is no option to change the Make or Model on the V5
However, trust me, it can be changed. Just send in the V5, with the correct details added to it, and as above, a covering letter explaining the changes.
"Make" - You'd have to be pretty silly to buy a car with the V5 showing a different make....
Originally Posted by jbwrx300
I'd thought about that, but is it that simple - and does it resolve the insurance issue if the WRX 300 marque has never been registered by Subaru?
I know the insurers found out about the vehicle as the press pack was sent out to all insurers the week 'AFTER' launch, and many have based their rates on this recently. Just wait until they find out that it is a modified. wrx.
"A WRX300 sir, no we have never heard of one of those"
I'm already sick of hearing it.
I know the insurers found out about the vehicle as the press pack was sent out to all insurers the week 'AFTER' launch, and many have based their rates on this recently. Just wait until they find out that it is a modified. wrx.
"A WRX300 sir, no we have never heard of one of those"
I'm already sick of hearing it.
). You need to find an insurance company that knows of this model or is will to list it as a WRX but adding, in writing that the actual car is a WRX300. From my own experince, insurance compaines do not appear to be all working from the same database of car models. I know where you are coming from, a JDM is even harder!Buck
01 July 2005, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jbwrx300
I'd thought about that, but is it that simple - and does it resolve the insurance issue if the WRX 300 marque has never been registered by Subaru?
I know the insurers found out about the vehicle as the press pack was sent out to all insurers the week 'AFTER' launch, and many have based their rates on this recently. Just wait until they find out that it is a modified. wrx.
Fortunately I insured mine as a modded motor in the early days so if I prang it I should be ok, but some are saying WRX300 with Privilige and Elephant is cheaper than a standard WRX. I would not like to be insured with them unless they spelled out exactly what they understand by WRX300 - as I found that a lot of insurers - Subaru Insured included confuse it as the UK300 which was not PPP'd.
"A WRX300 sir, no we have never heard of one of those"
I'm already sick of hearing it.
I know the insurers found out about the vehicle as the press pack was sent out to all insurers the week 'AFTER' launch, and many have based their rates on this recently. Just wait until they find out that it is a modified. wrx.
Fortunately I insured mine as a modded motor in the early days so if I prang it I should be ok, but some are saying WRX300 with Privilige and Elephant is cheaper than a standard WRX. I would not like to be insured with them unless they spelled out exactly what they understand by WRX300 - as I found that a lot of insurers - Subaru Insured included confuse it as the UK300 which was not PPP'd.
"A WRX300 sir, no we have never heard of one of those"
I'm already sick of hearing it.
Fortunately, they left a message on my answer machine stating 'this is Fred from Elephant.co.uk, the car is insured and we acknowledge it has Prodrive Performance Pack on it - thank you for sending us the product brochure detailing this. Enjoy driving your car. If you need anything else please call us.' I recorded this message onto my minidisc player just in case....
as you know, you can never be too careful with the insurers - some insurers should wear a black mask.Andrew
01 July 2005, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckrogers
From my own experince, insurance compaines do not appear to be all working from the same database of car models.
At the end of the day the car is a WRX with mods, including an increase in power and of course value. I've known insurance companies to up the price of a quote because a car has a factory fitted sunroof, so I'm sure they may do the same with this. However, because of the f/f Trackstar they may give a decent discount.
02 July 2005, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by highlander68k
I've had the same problem in the past with cars. Some are aware of the model and some aren't.
At the end of the day the car is a WRX with mods, including an increase in power and of course value. I've known insurance companies to up the price of a quote because a car has a factory fitted sunroof, so I'm sure they may do the same with this. However, because of the f/f Trackstar they may give a decent discount.
At the end of the day the car is a WRX with mods, including an increase in power and of course value. I've known insurance companies to up the price of a quote because a car has a factory fitted sunroof, so I'm sure they may do the same with this. However, because of the f/f Trackstar they may give a decent discount.
I know its not a fair comparison, but you see the point...
02 July 2005, 11:02 AM
#18
Just as an outside observation, if you insure a WRX300, Do not mention the PPP. As it doesn't have one (because as standard, the same components are fitted, but the WRX300 badge identifies this already...so there is no "performance pack" therefore no need to mention it). As if it is standard WRX300, it's a standard car, so it can't have a ppp fitted as it is not required...get my drift? - it could save some confusion in future
Also I would never rely on a v5 to correctly identify the specific model of car. Check out the VIN number with IM or a dealer to confirm its true identity.
If you want, you can send a letter with the v5 off to the DVLA and get changed to "Impreza Bird Magnet" and sure as hell it will be returned saying that
- it could save some confusion in future Also I would never rely on a v5 to correctly identify the specific model of car. Check out the VIN number with IM or a dealer to confirm its true identity.
If you want, you can send a letter with the v5 off to the DVLA and get changed to "Impreza Bird Magnet" and sure as hell it will be returned saying that
02 July 2005, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuck Fou Motorsport
That is true,
The last Import Evo 6 I had was down as just a Mitsubishi, A short letter to the dvla with the correct model details sorted that, they checked with Mitsubishi and 3 weeks later the v5 came back with MITSUBISHI LANCER EVO VI, 4Dr Saloon on there.
Give it a try...
The last Import Evo 6 I had was down as just a Mitsubishi, A short letter to the dvla with the correct model details sorted that, they checked with Mitsubishi and 3 weeks later the v5 came back with MITSUBISHI LANCER EVO VI, 4Dr Saloon on there.
Give it a try...
TX.
Last edited by Terminator X; 02 July 2005 at 01:00 PM.
02 July 2005, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Terminator X
I had a JDM Sti that just said "Subaru Impreza Turbo" on the V5 (first registered in the UK ie never driven in Japan), DVLA altered it to "WRX Sti" when I sent it back to them ...
TX.
TX.
Mark
Last edited by Marky9074; 02 July 2005 at 02:01 PM.
03 July 2005, 03:45 PM
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Finally this is all being cleared up. if on elephant.co.uk you select "wrx 300" and type in your reg then your sorted right? everything elese is their fault? surely?
03 July 2005, 03:53 PM
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This is a shady area, but to put it simply, the car started life as a WRX, not a 300, these are after market models, and as such dont need to be recognised as anything but what they came out of the factory as, so really, your documentation is correct, your car is a WRX, now if it said STi, id worry
Tony
Tony
03 July 2005, 10:19 PM
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jbwrx300,
FIRSTLY YOUR CAR IS REGISTERED WITH THE ABI.
see here,
http://www.abi.org.uk/carinsurance/download.asp
download Code44.dat(motor car)
or the Code44.mdb(.zip)(motor car) file.
It is listed as WRX 300 on the Association Of British Insurers Database.
The various Insurance companies might not YET list it. But that is an altogether different matter, and does not give you grounds to take 'legal' action.
As has already been suggested by a previous poster, if you write to the DVLA, sending your registation document, which you should copy for safety, asking for the details to be corrected.
Tony Burns, my 'Impreza WRX STi Prodrive' is specified as such on the
registration document from the DVLA.
Wether it came out of the factory like that or was 'modded' in the UK I don't know.
Cheers
MTR
FIRSTLY YOUR CAR IS REGISTERED WITH THE ABI.
see here,
http://www.abi.org.uk/carinsurance/download.asp
download Code44.dat(motor car)
or the Code44.mdb(.zip)(motor car) file.
It is listed as WRX 300 on the Association Of British Insurers Database.
The various Insurance companies might not YET list it. But that is an altogether different matter, and does not give you grounds to take 'legal' action.
As has already been suggested by a previous poster, if you write to the DVLA, sending your registation document, which you should copy for safety, asking for the details to be corrected.
Tony Burns, my 'Impreza WRX STi Prodrive' is specified as such on the
registration document from the DVLA.
Wether it came out of the factory like that or was 'modded' in the UK I don't know.
Cheers
MTR
Last edited by MTR; 03 July 2005 at 10:37 PM.
04 July 2005, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyBurns
This is a shady area, but to put it simply, the car started life as a WRX, not a 300, these are after market models, and as such dont need to be recognised as anything but what they came out of the factory as, so really, your documentation is correct, your car is a WRX, now if it said STi, id worry
Tony
Tony
IMPREZA WRX STI WR1
Last edited by Marky9074; 04 July 2005 at 02:13 AM.
05 July 2005, 02:08 PM
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As I read all these insurance problems and given the fact that subaru are constantly bringing out new variations and add ons why don't subaru set up their own insurance company and save us all a lot of aggro?
Originally Posted by Marky9074
I think thats the way forward, sending it to DVLA for an ammendment. I am worried though that it will 'dissapear' and will not see the V5 again!
Mark
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05 July 2005, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HOWY
As I read all these insurance problems and given the fact that subaru are constantly bringing out new variations and add ons why don't subaru set up their own insurance company and save us all a lot of aggro?
05 July 2005, 08:28 PM
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Just has this from another dealer.....
That sounds about right actually. It never says on the reg document that it's a PPP car because to get around the type approval legislation the cars have to be registered first before the PPP can be fitted. That's why they issue you with a Prodrive certificate when it's fitted so you have proof when you sell it on. I haven't seen a reg doc for the WRX 300 yet so can't comment on that but when we sold the WR1 special editions last year it only said STi so I've got a feeling it won't mention WRX 300 on yours.
This contradicts what other people have said about the WR1, plus brings back the PPP question....
That sounds about right actually. It never says on the reg document that it's a PPP car because to get around the type approval legislation the cars have to be registered first before the PPP can be fitted. That's why they issue you with a Prodrive certificate when it's fitted so you have proof when you sell it on. I haven't seen a reg doc for the WRX 300 yet so can't comment on that but when we sold the WR1 special editions last year it only said STi so I've got a feeling it won't mention WRX 300 on yours.
This contradicts what other people have said about the WR1, plus brings back the PPP question....
17 July 2005, 09:31 AM
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Just got this back from the DVLA after weeks of waiting for a reply......
'Thank you for your recent e-mail. I apologise that we have been unable to respond to your enquiry. It is possible that, after this length of time, you have already found the answer to your query by checking our website www.dvla.gov.uk or by other routes. If you still need an answer, please re-submit your enquiry.'
'Thank you for your recent e-mail. I apologise that we have been unable to respond to your enquiry. It is possible that, after this length of time, you have already found the answer to your query by checking our website www.dvla.gov.uk or by other routes. If you still need an answer, please re-submit your enquiry.'
17 July 2005, 09:33 AM
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If its any consolation, looked at an Audi TT 3.2 DSG Coupe, and it said TT Quatro on the log book, that was it, I guess it is time to let this drop now as its not a biggie...
Mark
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17 July 2005, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Marky9074
Just has this from another dealer.....
That sounds about right actually. It never says on the reg document that it's a PPP car because to get around the type approval legislation the cars have to be registered first before the PPP can be fitted. That's why they issue you with a Prodrive certificate when it's fitted so you have proof when you sell it on. I haven't seen a reg doc for the WRX 300 yet so can't comment on that but when we sold the WR1 special editions last year it only said STi so I've got a feeling it won't mention WRX 300 on yours.
This contradicts what other people have said about the WR1, plus brings back the PPP question....
That sounds about right actually. It never says on the reg document that it's a PPP car because to get around the type approval legislation the cars have to be registered first before the PPP can be fitted. That's why they issue you with a Prodrive certificate when it's fitted so you have proof when you sell it on. I haven't seen a reg doc for the WRX 300 yet so can't comment on that but when we sold the WR1 special editions last year it only said STi so I've got a feeling it won't mention WRX 300 on yours.
This contradicts what other people have said about the WR1, plus brings back the PPP question....