What's the feasability of putting a 100,000$ WRC on the road?
15 July 2004, 12:42 AM
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What's the feasability of putting a 100,000$ WRC on the road?
What do the experts amoung us feel is the level of difficulty of a company such as Litchfield or possibly even Prodrive themselves, putting a cut-rate WRC car on the road?
When I say cut rate I mean, trying best to get the chassis similar- without extending all the way towards the hyper performance parts that current cars use. No fancy magnisium parts, no anti-lag, no push button trany, a fairly stock engine, a much less complicated roll cage etc. But the main priority would be to get the chassis ridigidity much higher, a similar engine placement and weight distribution, a very similar tarmac spec suspension, and the very best 4WD system (possible of a slightly older spec) close to WRC spec. If this could be done, I think it would be fair to say, it would be the meanest and most able car ever to grace a public road.
Could this be done for 100,000 pounds?
When I say cut rate I mean, trying best to get the chassis similar- without extending all the way towards the hyper performance parts that current cars use. No fancy magnisium parts, no anti-lag, no push button trany, a fairly stock engine, a much less complicated roll cage etc. But the main priority would be to get the chassis ridigidity much higher, a similar engine placement and weight distribution, a very similar tarmac spec suspension, and the very best 4WD system (possible of a slightly older spec) close to WRC spec. If this could be done, I think it would be fair to say, it would be the meanest and most able car ever to grace a public road.
Could this be done for 100,000 pounds?
15 July 2004, 07:44 AM
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Im not being funny but is it really worth that money??? I certainly wouldnt part with 100K for a 98 scooby which i reckon would be about as driveable and reliable as i dont know what.
15 July 2004, 07:53 AM
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Re - http://www.wrcsales.co.uk/ has a '98 WRC Impreza for £94,999 ---lol
I can just see the advert.....
One Careful owner, Only used for 9months in 1998, few minor stone chips hehehe
1st to see will buy
I can just see the advert.....
One Careful owner, Only used for 9months in 1998, few minor stone chips hehehe
1st to see will buy
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15 July 2004, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve001
Could you get it insured for everyday use???
As regards buying a WRC or Group A or N car, check out the adverts in Motorsport News every week.
15 July 2004, 11:25 AM
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Why would you want to? the standard road car with a few tweaks is more than adequate for road us in the UK.
With your crappy speed limit, crappy petrol, crappy speeding fines and crappy roads why would you need the rigidity and performance of a WRC car???????
With your crappy speed limit, crappy petrol, crappy speeding fines and crappy roads why would you need the rigidity and performance of a WRC car???????
15 July 2004, 11:37 AM
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in response to crappy fuel, twas actually funny... I was in Hungary the last two days with work, and there they even have 100 RON!!!! What is the best in the UK?? 97? Woohoo 
15 July 2004, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Wurzel
Why would you want to? the standard road car with a few tweaks is more than adequate for road us in the UK.
With your crappy speed limit, crappy petrol, crappy speeding fines and crappy roads why would you need the rigidity and performance of a WRC car???????
With your crappy speed limit, crappy petrol, crappy speeding fines and crappy roads why would you need the rigidity and performance of a WRC car???????
That'd be about 600bhp then and torque to match 
15 July 2004, 01:27 PM
#20
Originally Posted by Ringpeas
cheers
How does that work then? very low rev limiter?
How does that work then? very low rev limiter?
15 July 2004, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cheeseboy
in response to crappy fuel, twas actually funny... I was in Hungary the last two days with work, and there they even have 100 RON!!!! What is the best in the UK?? 97? Woohoo
15 July 2004, 03:24 PM
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"You could do it easily with a Grp N car if thats what your looking at?"
I think a group N car is less like a WRC car than it is a standard car. Group N is basically a gutted regular spec with seam-welded body and roll-cage I think. Thats why I think it would be so exciting to go WRC.
Again I'm not saying to reproduce exactly or purchase exactly a WRC car used, but rather create a bespoke car, that melds the most important chassis bits- the suspension, engine placement, weight distribution, Active 4WD-(probably the most expensive part) of the WRC car with everything else being of a far less exspensive spec. I think it could be done, and I'd certainly have this over Ferrari and the gang, etc.
I think a group N car is less like a WRC car than it is a standard car. Group N is basically a gutted regular spec with seam-welded body and roll-cage I think. Thats why I think it would be so exciting to go WRC.
Again I'm not saying to reproduce exactly or purchase exactly a WRC car used, but rather create a bespoke car, that melds the most important chassis bits- the suspension, engine placement, weight distribution, Active 4WD-(probably the most expensive part) of the WRC car with everything else being of a far less exspensive spec. I think it could be done, and I'd certainly have this over Ferrari and the gang, etc.
16 July 2004, 02:06 PM
#26
'Best Motoring' put an STI7 (type R i beleve?) against a equivelent age wrc scoob across a 2min stage.
The WRC car was about 2mins, the sti was about 5 secs off the pace, and he never had a co-driver.
Is 100k worth that much of a performance gain?
I think the guy in the sti had driven that stage many times though and it was the wrc drivers first time, but still.
Dave
The WRC car was about 2mins, the sti was about 5 secs off the pace, and he never had a co-driver.
Is 100k worth that much of a performance gain?
I think the guy in the sti had driven that stage many times though and it was the wrc drivers first time, but still.
Dave
16 July 2004, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by OBH6UK
Rally cars have to be road legal, i.e. tax, insurance, MOT where applicable so the answer would be yes, but you might need to use a specialist broker.
As regards buying a WRC or Group A or N car, check out the adverts in Motorsport News every week.
As regards buying a WRC or Group A or N car, check out the adverts in Motorsport News every week.
but at what cost??
I road rally a little 'standard' class NOVA made the mistake of mentioning the word RALLY....jeez no one wanted to touch it
even though i arrange comp insurance separately.Steve
16 July 2004, 04:03 PM
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derestricted wrc cars don't make 600bhp, the turbo is too small to flow that kind of air once they rev beyond 6000rpm.
The engines are very strong but are still 2.0 litres and they rely on massive boost and high compression to generate the torque.
The rigidity of the shell can be copied, but remember much of the design is to facilitate fast servicing, which isn't such an issue on road cars.
The best part about wrc cars is the active drivetrain and gearbox. That makes a huge difference to the handling of the cars. A big majority of the advantage they provide can be copied with systems applicable to road use. If you are really keen, wait to see what scoobysport can produce as their literature says they are playing around with active diffs and I suspect with the team they have behind them, people are going to be amazed by what can be done.
As regards to a road car being 5 secs off the pace of a wrc on a rally stage, unless the stage was 500m long, I suspect that is either bollocks or misquoted. The torque, grip and handling difference is astounding. Straight performance alone from 300bhp and 500lbft will blow a standard car into the weeds, never mind once you put the tuned handling and suspension into the package. and then there's the most major factor: anti lag
It may well have been 5 secs per minute slower, or 5 secs per kilometer maybe, that is slightly more believable.
The engines are very strong but are still 2.0 litres and they rely on massive boost and high compression to generate the torque.
The rigidity of the shell can be copied, but remember much of the design is to facilitate fast servicing, which isn't such an issue on road cars.
The best part about wrc cars is the active drivetrain and gearbox. That makes a huge difference to the handling of the cars. A big majority of the advantage they provide can be copied with systems applicable to road use. If you are really keen, wait to see what scoobysport can produce as their literature says they are playing around with active diffs and I suspect with the team they have behind them, people are going to be amazed by what can be done.
As regards to a road car being 5 secs off the pace of a wrc on a rally stage, unless the stage was 500m long, I suspect that is either bollocks or misquoted. The torque, grip and handling difference is astounding. Straight performance alone from 300bhp and 500lbft will blow a standard car into the weeds, never mind once you put the tuned handling and suspension into the package. and then there's the most major factor: anti lag
It may well have been 5 secs per minute slower, or 5 secs per kilometer maybe, that is slightly more believable.
16 July 2004, 06:11 PM
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Good thread,
There are some interesting angles to consider..
Firstly, the money spent on developing a WRC car is insane. It is developed for complete and total performance rather than anything else. Each "out and out" performance modification has a potential beneficial effect on every other area which allows you to further develop that area, etc, etc. So with this in mind, it should follow that to try to get close to that performance without spending squillions of quid is impossible..
however... on the other side
There are also a whole load of technical restrictions in WRC cars that are not restricted in a road car (assuming you can insure it!). Technical restrictions drive big money spends on producing the same performance whilst remaining within the regs... so by that logic, you should be able to produce a much quicker car than a WRC car without spending anywhere near the same money.
--
The end result is that, if you truly want to produce a WRC car, you of course can, but it will cost you a shed load of cash to include all those clever bits that are built cleverly in order to stay within the regulations, but by doing so, you will actually be spending some of your money on making the car slower.
--
Or.. you can do what we're doing.
The big hitters in performance of a WRC car are :
- The engine (obviously)
- Mass Distribution (Very low, as even front and rear as possible, and within the wheelbase as much as possible)
- Active Diffs
- Brakes
- Suspension
- Chassis set-up
- Wheels
- intercooler
- etc
The big things that reduce the performance are :
- min weight 1250kg
- Tyre size restrictions
- turbo restrictor
- safety equipment (roll cage, etc)
- blah blah
---
Now the great thing is that due to all of these challenges / restrictions, the technology used to overcome them and the experienced gain by doing so is accelerated exponentially.
What we're doing is using that technology and experience to poduce equipment that utilises these benefits, and as it doesn't have the restrictions we have the freedom to potentially improve the car to a greater extent than it improves a WRC car.
---
The difference between a standard road scooby and a WRC.. as adam said, 5 seconds a km would be more likely. Although you can't generalise like that.
I'm looking forward to changing that advantage round
All the best
Simon
There are some interesting angles to consider..
Firstly, the money spent on developing a WRC car is insane. It is developed for complete and total performance rather than anything else. Each "out and out" performance modification has a potential beneficial effect on every other area which allows you to further develop that area, etc, etc. So with this in mind, it should follow that to try to get close to that performance without spending squillions of quid is impossible..
however... on the other side
There are also a whole load of technical restrictions in WRC cars that are not restricted in a road car (assuming you can insure it!). Technical restrictions drive big money spends on producing the same performance whilst remaining within the regs... so by that logic, you should be able to produce a much quicker car than a WRC car without spending anywhere near the same money.
--
The end result is that, if you truly want to produce a WRC car, you of course can, but it will cost you a shed load of cash to include all those clever bits that are built cleverly in order to stay within the regulations, but by doing so, you will actually be spending some of your money on making the car slower.
--
Or.. you can do what we're doing.
The big hitters in performance of a WRC car are :
- The engine (obviously)
- Mass Distribution (Very low, as even front and rear as possible, and within the wheelbase as much as possible)
- Active Diffs
- Brakes
- Suspension
- Chassis set-up
- Wheels
- intercooler
- etc
The big things that reduce the performance are :
- min weight 1250kg
- Tyre size restrictions
- turbo restrictor
- safety equipment (roll cage, etc)
- blah blah
---
Now the great thing is that due to all of these challenges / restrictions, the technology used to overcome them and the experienced gain by doing so is accelerated exponentially.
What we're doing is using that technology and experience to poduce equipment that utilises these benefits, and as it doesn't have the restrictions we have the freedom to potentially improve the car to a greater extent than it improves a WRC car.
---
The difference between a standard road scooby and a WRC.. as adam said, 5 seconds a km would be more likely. Although you can't generalise like that.
I'm looking forward to changing that advantage round
All the best
Simon