Jza

Im fed up with our cars coming out second best all the time (see TG thread).

Should Prodrive be producing:

1) Focused driving machines where they aim is to create the quickest tool possible on both road and track.

2) Produce high performance cars - with the aim to make them safe and comfortable for the average driver - at the cost of ultimate drivability

I don't think they are doing a good job producing cars that are continually outpaced by the oposition. If a small importer (sorry Ian) can bring cars in from Japan (spec C, T25 etc) and make them 1)... why can't a big company like Prodrive do the same? Or do people not want that?

Jza

scoobynutta555

Prodrive are essentially a big motor sports team and as far as my knowledge goes the partnership with Subaru (tweaking road cars) is only a part of this.

I would like to see a UK car that is at least a match for the Jap specs, and in my eyes, a brand like Prodrive should be producing cars that better jap spec cars. I would be a bit concerned if I was in Prodrive that I was lending my brand name to a car that is seen as not as good as other examples of Imprezas, the 2.5 Litchfield effort has stolen the wr1 thunder so to speak, and a relatively small outfit seems to have bettered subaru Uk in all areas.

But at the end of the day its up to what Subaru UK want in their guidelines for a car, not forgetting there is a financial side to all of this.

There seems to be no dynamism in what Subaru in general are making at the moment, and the limited edition models are IMHO quite a disappointment. The lack of 2 door in the range and the bug eye fiasco are examples of this.

Jza

Agree completely mate

Jza

mrklaw

Ultimate. Don't see the point of prodrive even being involved to make a car thats less than a standard Japanese model. Why not just bring that range over? You get the comfortable cars and the performance ones.

the nonsense about cost etc must be just an excuse - look how many different models of the EVO mitsubishi bring out, and other small volume cars.

johnfelstead

i commented on the main thread about why prodrive produce what they do.

It would be nice to see them do another 22B TypeUK project, even with that car IM didnt get to do what it wanted as they originally planned to sell 50, but the grey importers already imported 34 22B's so they couldnt make as many as they wanted to because of limits set by FHI for 22B imports to the UK.

I am sure Prodrive would want to produce something that would spank the EVO on track whilst still being a superb road car, but that isnt their brief and they dont have the base car to do that. Until FHI change their european sales policy thats not going to change either IMHO.
The best thing to come out of the WR1 is that as a road car it is superb, with the DCCD the balance is much better than the previous UK STi's and the WR1 PPP does work well, it felt a lot better to me than the STi TypeUK PPP, which felt flat by comparison.

Scooby-Doo

[QUOTE=Jza]Im fed up with our cars coming out second best all the time (see TG thread).

Why is it a problem to you ? Why did you buy it ? If its a problem then maybe the Subaru badge wasn't the correct choice. I cannot understand the number of posts in outrage that the Evo was the "quicker" car. If people don't like being in the "slower" car sell up and buy something else.

I wonder if JC will mention Scoobynet on TG next week with a few choice words maybe along the lines of "kiddies, toys, pram Sour grapes etc etc etc"

Edcase

What makes you think they aren't doing exactly that right now???

Jza

Err... edcase.

Perhaps you should read a few recent threads on the subject???

John,

How do you know what Prodrive's brief was - or is it just your feelings on the matter?

Would you buy one by the way?

Jza

SC008Y_MAD

iTrader: (5)

I think that they should be producing/making cars like the Type 25 as the standard WRX and a super type 25 as the STi model, and then a super duper model something like Type 25 R etc...

then they should be able to caine the oposition e.d Mitisubishi EVO's
...but obviously priced ocordingly with current models.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Prodrive PPP has made my car more drivable and is covered by UK Warranty

How many of the 500 £30K WR1 owners would buy a Scooby at £50K ? Sorry not many, maybe not the market out there to cover development cost in the £50K bracket to many cars of Better quality cars than the Scoob IMHO

Although the STi special Editions S202 and STi V LTD are both brilliant cars

Tony

Scratch

iTrader: (1)

Can they not produce the car as good for all, with a PPP style upgrade to give you the ultimate machine if you wanted it at extra cost ?

Is this not what the Prodrive upgrades are all about ?

Perhaps it's the upgrades are not focused enough ? Maybe they too are still much of a compromise ?

Maybe more of the JAp spec models should be available in the UK, then there would be something for everyone. Lush all day driver with a decent turn of speed and then the Spec C for the track junkie ?

just my 2p's worth

Edcase

like where??? too busy to spend much time on the forum lately. My point is how do you know what goes on behind prodrives doors / R&D department?

scoobynutta555

I think that Prodrive were given a budget package on each car, IMHO it wasn't enough. Fair play to the comment on who would pay £50k for a subaru Impreza, I would if it was in the 22b type of car and better than jap spec. The Litchfield option is a lot less than 50k, granted it's not much to look at but what new shape is?

Unfortunatly Subaru don't seem to have the ***** to go down that route. Too many cars better build quality in that bracket? Thats something for Subaru to address, but i assume on value for money and performance facts the subaru would win hands down, as it mostly does now. Seem to remember people buying 22bs when they came out for around £40-45k for imported jap specs. Even now the cars have strong residuals. Says a lot for a desirable 5 year old Impreza doesn't it?

Something like that photoshopped 2 door new shape with performance to match would get me seriously interested in buying a new Subaru again. As it is what's being pushed out is fairly non inventive.

greasemonkey

Lol, who gives a flying f**k, to put it bluntly? Aside of course from internet nerds who spend all day talking about whose car is better.

And there's no point quoting any more really. Prodrive will produce whatever their client tells them to. In this case, the client is International Motors Limited

There's already a branch of Prodrive responsible for doing that. It is called the Subaru World Rally Team. As things stand, SWRT haven't got much to fear from Mitsubishi's pace, on tarmac or any other surface.

Why are you getting so pissed off about the Top Gear article? The car was being driven badly, and there's no question that The Stig, whoever the hell it is, didn't get the best out of the car.

The average UK Subaru buyer probably doesn't want a stripped-out track car, no. However, this is a moot point. As mentioned above, Prodrive develop cars for IM according to a brief given to them by IM. If IM gave them a budget to develop a wänkmobil, I'm sure they would. The trouble with wänkmobils though is that once you've shot your load, it's nice to be able to do something else. The WR1 is an extremely fast enthusiast's car, while also being a perfectly good daily driver, which you can drive all day on the motorway without getting ticked off at noise or bone-jarring ride.

In that respect it's a better car than the Evo8 MR, and miles better than the Spec C's. Incidentally Jza, have you driven one yet?

scoobynutta555

"The average UK Subaru buyer probably doesn't want a stripped-out track car, no."

Fair point, but what choice is there at the moment from IM? I doubt that the S202 or the typeRA is a flop for Subaru in their home market? Although these are not stripped out track cars, they are stripped out road cars which there is a very healthy market for.

The best Impreza car at the moment if you're into the more extreme has to be the Litchfield? I'll wager that if it was an official car at 5k more than the wr1 it would sell more.

What consumers want, and that includes 'internet nerds', is a car that matches up to the WRC Subaru. Its fine and dandy to say that the mitsubishi wrc does not worry the subaru wrc car, but if the subaru road car gets trounced by the mitsu road car, and Top Gear probably has a higher tv audience than world rally in this country, its pretty pointless isn't it? Especially when the wr1 is an official uk car.

It smacks of complacency that subaru are slipping behind, especially since you have said that the mitsubishi aren't troubling the subaru wrc car.

Back to the point about the average subaru buyer, i think they have enough choice at the moment with the tat that is on offer.

Edcase

More than WHAT though? The WR1 is a limited run unique to the UK market (pleeeease don't anybody bring up the Euro Solberg edition its based on) and sold out without any problems. It was not an exercise in selling huge numbers of units.

That sums up these threads Subaru / Prodrive / WR1 on this forum lately. Slipping behind where? Quality control? Nope. Number of sales (vs Evo)? Nope. Service and parts? Oh, Subaru just cut the cost of most common parts by up to half. Reliability? Even with the stick some owners here give their cars how many do you hear of with problems? 3 secs slower on that bible of accurate journalism top gear driven badly by ben collins? Oh man, they're in trouble now!!

For chr1sts sake people get a grip!!!

greasemonkey

If you're talking about an out and out track car, none, because their marketing bods have obviously done the research, and don't feel that the potential revenue justifies the development costs. In any case, as has been said by others above, if I wanted an out and out track car, I wouldn't waste my money on a 1300kg four door saloon.

IM are, to a greater or lesser extent, somewhat hamstrung at the moment anyway, as it is legally impossible for them to produce a "Spec C Type UK" (or whatever you'd call it) as the twin scroll turbo setup doesn't currently pass European Union (and US for that matter) emissions regulations.

You are missing the point with those cars completely. Subaru produce the Type RA because they have to, if they want to be competitive in Group N rallying. They aren't big sales hits in Japan, primarily because they're produced in relatively small numbers.

I tend to think that International Motors know more about the size of the market than you do, no disrespect intended.

In any case, the Spec C is not a "stripped out road car", it's an homologation special. They have oil coolers, gearbox coolers, big waterspray tanks and so-on only because such gadgets are desirable on the rallycars, and they're stripped out because the lighter the road car, the lighter the rallycar is allowed to be (Group N weights are based on the roadcar weight +- allowances for roll cage and removal of interior fittings).

International Motors couldn't have sold a car like the Type 25, even if they wanted to. See comment above about the turbo system not meeting emissions standards. Litchfield can get away with it because he's an independent and the Type 25 doesn't have full EU type approval.

PMSL, you haven't got a clue what a WRC car drives like, so what makes you think you'd want one on the road? Just how long do you think you could cope with cabin noise that's so bad you have to shout to the guy in the other seat (or use an intercom with noise cancelling headsets), heavy, grabby clutch, unyielding ride, 14 miles per gallon cruise fuel economy, and servicing every 400 miles?


When did the Subaru get trounced by the Mitsu then?

Ah, that. Top Gear gets something like 2.2 million viewers, and the WR1 vs Evo feature was a one-off, and a relatively small part of the programme at that. The WRC on Sunday afternoons is getting something like 1.8 milllion at the moment, and there are sixteen rounds in the series. On balance I'd imagine Subaru will be much more worried about showing well on the rally coverage than the Top Gear piece.

Only, it seems, to folk like yourself. I've driven both a WR1 and an Evo8 (and the occasional WRC car for that matter, so I know what I'm talking about there), and I don't see that IM, or indeed WR1 owners, have too much reason to worry. The WR1 does what it does extremely well, and there is no reason for any owner to develop the monster sized inferiority complex you suddenly seem to have acquired.

Again, what gives you the idea that Subaru are "slipping behind"? One BBC Top Gear report? As suggested above, why take their word for it? Go down your local Mitsu and Subaru dealers, try each car for yourself and see what you think.

Rofl. Tat? You think official UK Subarus are "tat" because... of Sunday's Top Gear? ???

As much as I try I can't take you, Jza or the similar voices in this thread seriously. It seems to me that the biggest worry for the bulk of you is perception rather than reality. Seems as though you're afraid that all your mates down the pub will laugh at you now the Scooby's been "trounced" by the Evo on Top Gear.

It seems the real reason you want Subaru to produce a "super duper" car is to justify your own ownership by reinforcing your belief that "Scoobies are best". I can see why IM have no desire to involve themselves in that sort of juvenile, futile, expensive p*ss*ng contest, and I can't say I blame them.

At end of day, if it hurts you that much that the WR1 was beaten by the Evo, sell your Impreza, buy a Lancer, and go bore all the folks down at the MLR...

Red Man

For fear of a quiet voice intruding into the heat of this debate, I just wanted to reflect on a point made by greasemonkey and others.

When I came into Subaru ownership 3 years ago I was most strongly influenced by the coverage and record of Subaru as a world rally team, who had an affordable car that resembled the rally cars with good technology to allow me to drive fast and safe day to day on the very varied roads in the UK (esp, as I live in N Yorks).

I feel a sense of pride that Subaru continue with their rally tradition, and that a UK company and team of experts (ProDrive) helps them continue to do this with such great sucess despite all the pressures for companies to cut back and withdraw including the mighty Ford).

There are probably many existing and future owners influenced in this way and hence the attention on the WRC seems a pretty good long term strategy to me.

P1_BEN

LOL @ Greasemonkey.... Well said, and as a WR1 owner I can safely say I have found scoobynet over the last few days laughable...!! this smile will be staying put for a long while yet... and heaven forbid if an evo should cross my path and leave me standing... I'll wave and acknowledge a hugely competent car... just hope they do the same in return...

CraigH

Think GM has hit the nail on the head.

It all boils down to fragile ego's doesn't it? "I want the best, I want the fastest"

If everyone wants this, then go an buy an Evo, because according to Top Gear it must be better

Or better still, stop being so ****.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Stick the ATD drivetrain in an Impreza............... job done!

SirFozzalot

Why not make a PPP type package as they already do and then an additional performance upgrade (that will probably void warranties etc.) to compete/out perform with TSL (333), Litchfield (T25) etc.

I would have thought that alot of people would be interested in an 'ultimate' package from Prodrive, especially with their experience and expertise with Subaru in the past.

Just my thoughts.

dsmith

But Scoobynet would die if that happened. It would never survive on the number of "non-****" hits.

Deano

greasemonkey

Cough, pmsl. Do you want to think that through one more time? The official Subaru importer selling parts that encouraged owners to void their own warranties? There'd be uproar, and there'd soon be legal action taken against them, either by owners, or worse. Not to mention the damage to the marque's reputation that would ensue.

International Motors have no need to "compete" with the likes of TSL or Litchfield because, firstly, they can't do it on a level playing field, and secondly because they simply don't need to. Official UK Subaru sales are booming. IM don't need the money, and they have no need to involve themselves in the quagmire that would result from your suggestion.

The "Ultimate" package from Prodrive via IM already exists. Until another car comes along it is called the WR1. If you want something other than that, you're obviously well aware that there are a few third party tuning houses around. Give one of them a ring.

Prodrive won't sell a car independently of IM in this country for business/legal reasons, however, it's a fair bet that some of the stuff they've researched may see the light of day via other sources over the next few months/years.

Speaking of which, SWS: Even that won't sort everything out if the driver isn't driving the car properly. I daresay an ATD Impreza would still understeer if driven in the manner the "Stig" did for the TV piece.

SirFozzalot

Fair enough....I'll shut-up then!

Daz34

Well said Greasemonkey.
The reaction of some people to the review on Top Gear is hilarious. It's an entertaining program but that is all it is. Entertainment. It isn't the Oracle. Its just animated Top Trumps IMHO.

Daz

Edcase

Speaking from direct experience, yup it certainly does. It took me two or three attempts at th hairpin on Prodrives test track because I was just expecting it to grip.

Simple facts of physics dictate that if you enter too fast and simply turn in hard with all that momentum, you are going to understeer, particularly in a road-going saloon car, and regardless of tyres and suspension.

urban

iTrader: (1)

Jza, do you ever do anything else but fecking complain and winge?

How much do you actually know about prodrive? They don't even sell cars FFS(well not road cars anyhow), they are a motorsports company mainly.

Why does everyone keep harping on like a stuck fecking record about ******** topgear and the WR1 getting beaten by the EVO

Folks, some of you need to get real.

Shaun

Mikkk

Quite agree, I bought a Scoob because it was the car that ticked all the boxes on my list. The EVO's didn't tick as many so they got dropped.

If you bought the Scoob because you wanted the fastest saloon on 4 wheels then fine, throw your dolly, blub like a school girl and have a hissy fit.

Personally I'm very happy with my Scoob (MY03 STi Type UK) and don't care a fig what anyone else says. For me it does exactly what it says on the tin

PS. I also wave at EVO's ... but mainly because I think they're Scoobs

Supercue

iTrader: (1)

Ed & Grease Monkey I agree

I think the major point a lot of you are missing is that when IM and Pro-Drive build something it has to last at least 3yrs because of the warranty that comes with these cars, never mind complying with all the Euro twaddle as well.

Now I'm quite sure if you don't want a warranty Mike wood and others will build you your penile extension for a small fee

Litchfield do make exceptional cars in limited numbers but as said they are INDEPENDANT and that's why they fill that niche market superbly.

Now on TG the Evo blitzed the WR1 fact now FFS people lets get back to the real world.