Blobster

After the recent posts from prospective WR1 owners I am confused about the requirements to have the car registered to the owner prior to delivery of the car in order for Prodrive to fit the PPP.
This can't be right can it?

What would happen if Prodrive are in the middle of fitting the PPP and the owner decides to cancel the order (maybe for a Spec C or T25 ) does that then mean the car would have to be sold again, re-registered, and therefore the new owner would be the 2nd owner? If you see what I mean.

Does that also mean that the car would be taxed and insured previous to delivery in which case from the time PPP is fitted to the time the car is delivered I would need a short term 2nd car policy if I was part exing?

Maybe I'm thinking too much about this, but the dealer I'm buying from sounds as confused as me and has no info about delivery dates as yet.

Blobster

P1_BEN

What happens if you buy an sti with PPP brand new..? does it come fitted or do they fit it after...

I'm in the same boat still no news on my delivery and they've had my dosh 3 months now..!!

16vmarc

I thought WR1s had ppp already fitted, hence the 315bhp????

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

It's most likely to get round emissions or noise regs. The car must frist be sold as standard and then the PPP is fitted as effectively and aftermarket add-on.

I think TVR do a similar thing with the zorsts they fit in order to avoid the noise regs.

Blobster

Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking. But as I said, if an order falls through after the vehicle is pre-registered then the car would effectively be second hand!

However as the WR1 is sold with PPP as standard, surely these emission/noise/EU regulations wouldn't apply and so the cars would not need pre-registering, and so it seems strange that a number of folks claim to have been asked to provide a cover note.

Blobster

Nick

You place an order for the WR1 & pay a deposit of £1k. This reserves your car. Then Subaru will PDI, fit the alarm & tracking system & change the wheels HOPEFULLY WITH STICK ON WEIGHTS! Then Subaru need to register the car & will ask for an insurance cover note from you. Prodrive will then fit the PPP.

The reason for this is that the WR1 with PPP is not type-approved. Type approval is expensive & results in the destruction of 2 or 3 cars during testing.

If in the middle of fitting the PPP, you cancel an order, then it is a civil legal matter between yourself & the garage. I would assume that you are open to a claim for damages for a 2nd hand car. I expect like me, you signed an order form with an open delivery date.

Blobster

Thanks, Nick. Comprehensive answer.
I am not cancelling an order, in fact I can hardly wait it's just that some of the threads on here and a chat today with the supplying dealer we both seemed genuinely baffled that a customer should be expected to insure a car maybe up to a month prior to delivery.
As I ordered the car via the telephone I have not signed anything but the deposit is paid and the copy of my driving licence has been taken.

"It's the waiting I can't stand."

Blobster

Brian the Sn@il

I was sure that Prodrive had completed all the mods a few weeks ago.
THe WR-1s are back in the hands of Subaru awaiting delivery.

Something strange going on here ?

MTR

As an owner of a MY02 STI Prodrive with PPP fitted, I have to inform my insurance company that my car has been modified.

If the WR1 has to be registered to its new keeper, insured by the new keeper and THEN modified by Prodrive is that not exactly the same as the STI with PPP fitted?

You have to do exactly that before the PPP is fitted to an STi, and as someone on this thread has already pointed out, you have to take out insurance on a 2nd car if you wish to carry on driving., as when you transfer your policy to your new WR1, you won't actually have it in your possesion.

You can recieve the WRi or STI PPP from the dealers already with the performance upgrade fitted.
BUT it is done AFTER you are legally registered as the owner/keeper? and have insured the UNMODIFIED vehicle. (it hasn't been to Prodrive at that time, or has it?)

The PPP fitted to the STi can only legally be fitted once the car is registered and owned by its new keeper (not Subaru), and therefore does not have to comply witt noise and emission regulations in force for a BRAND NEW car. Its secondhand when the PPP is fitted, even though the new owner hasn't seen it or driven it.

I have read the comments on other posts about the insurance being cheaper because the WR1 cars are NOT modified, and therefore do not carry any additional loading.
IE they are as produced by the manufacturer.

Yes they are in regards the specification matches the literature issued for advertising purposes, BUT so does an STi with PPP match the literature.
Granted you can buy an STi without PPP, and Subaru are not supplying WR1 without the PPP fitted.

BUT,
has anyone spoken directly to their insures (not broker) and clarified exactly the sequence of events required to buy a WR1, ref registering/insuring it first prior to Prodrive modifying it? I suspect not many have.

It could turn out potentially costly if an insurance companies viewpoint differed from the owner/registered keeper in the event of a claim.

Despite any protestations an owner may have, the monies for any repairs will definately NOT be released unless the insurance company are entirely satisfied that all information has been declared at the inception of the policy.

Whats the Latin saying that means 'buyer beware'

Cheers
MTR

Harry_Boy

Caveat Emptor....

MTR

Harry Boy,
Thats the saying.

Cheers
MTR

WR1 Ant

Mtr .......All WR1s will be 320ps when they reach the customer so thats what the insurance co's have baised their rates on. It is unmodifyed as the standard spec of a WR1 is 320 ps. When a manufactuer bring out a more powerfull version of a car and name it as such although the manufacturer have modified it to get more power its not classed as modified as thats how its ment to be ie WR1 is 320 ps. Where as an STI is ment to be 265 ps so when you add the performance pack to increase it to 305 ps it is then modified as a STI is only 265 standard and thats what insurance co's have baised their rates on, hope this clears this up a bit.

MTR

WR1 Ant,
I understand fully what you are saying, but in the same way an STi PPP is 305PS.
Both A WR1 and an STI PPP are special editions created within the UK by a seperate company ie Prodrive, in association with Subaru UK (IM).

They are NOT vehicles created by the manufacturer, FACT.
FUJI Heavy Industries (Subaru Japan DO NOT MANUFACTURE THE WR1)

The WR1 IS a modified variant of a standard Impreza Turbo (don't know which one). It does not leave the factory in Japan in that form. FACT.

It would appear that ALL the performance modifications are carried out by Prodrive (not Subaru) AFTER the car is registered and insured in the customers name.

Potentially in the eyes of an insurance Ombudsman that is the same as taking your car to 'Joe Bloggs tuning' and creating a special edition vehicle.

As I have aked has any owner to be, explained in detail how the car is created AFTER they own it, to their insurance company.

I suspect that many would rather not, for fear that the insurance company may not want their business. Understandable.

But it is absolutely certain that in the event of ANY ambiguity between the customer regarding policy declaration and an insurance company in the event of a claim, the customer will NOT get paid.

Please understand I doesn't matter to me wether people have or haven't checked themselves with their insurance company, or even asked for written confirmation from Subaru Uk (IM).
But the senario doesn't look greatly dissimilar to the one I had to undertake with my 'as brochure' STi Type UK PPP.

I thought that it might be a point worth considering.
Unless losing £30K isn't something to worry about in the event of a total loss.

IF you insure a Spec C or STi S202, they are as produced from the factory in Japan, not modified.
A WR1 isn't.

Its not me or you that need to be convinced, its your insurance company.

Telephone conversation with insurance company after an accident:

What do you mean sir, your car arrived from Japan, then AFTER registering the vehicle, and AFTER we insured you, it went to Prodrive for 2 weeks having all manner of modifications carried out. Who are Prodrive?
What part of the question 'has your vehicle been modified in any way' did you not understand?

The are a number of insurance companies that haven't a clue what a PPP kit is or have no idea who Prodrive are.
Its not their business to know the names of any of the AFTERMARKET TUNING companies. Which is all Prodrive are, in the eyes of the insurance companies.

Don't take offence, I am just trying to point out how a situation could develop.

If you were the person with a trashed £30K car having the above telephone conversation with an insurance advisor, would you feel quite so confident of a reaching a mutually agreeable resolution?

I so then carry on, if not, then it might pay to check up.

Cheers
MTR

Brian the Sn@il

some good points there mate.

Ill be phoning the insurance comp on Monday to see if they have a WR1 listed on their database

Blobster

Good points raised.
However I'm finding it difficult enough just getting a quote for the car let alone having to explain to some phone monkey the exact chronology of how the car came to be.

Having said that, Tom at Subaru Insurance, is on the ball and knows exactly what he's talking about.

Blobster - still waiting for a delivery date.

Fidd

Yes, could all get a bit iffy.

As said, the car gets registered and insured, and then after that gets modified.

Be carefull peeps !!

greasemonkey

Who exactly "created" the car is a moot point. The only thing that matters is that International Motors (the official Subaru agent) sell it, and it's they who inform the insurance companies of its specification.

Er, yes they are. They're created by the manufacturer's agent or its nominated subcontractor, with the full approval of the manufacturer.

Moot point. As far as insurance and type approval are concerned, it matters not a jot whether the cars are made in FHI's factory, or on the planet Mars. Subaru sells cars made in Suzuki factories (or vice versa), Ford sells cars made in Volkswagen factories, but you don't have to tell your insurer that your Galaxy is really a modified VW Sharan, do you? At end of day where the car was "manufactured" and who by is of no import to the insurance.

The only pertinent point here are that the WR1's are sold as a packaged entity by the appointed agent of Subaru, International Motors. IM tell the insurer what the spec of the car is, and they add it to their databases as a unique model. Thus, if you phone up to insure a WR1, the insurer will already know it has 320ps as standard.

That's a moot point. As far as type approval is concerned, it's close enough to the existing STi Type UK to sneak in without requiring a full reapproval/model report.

That's not correct. Most of the changes from the car's imported spec can be carried out prior to registration. The only one that's fitted after is the PPP, and that is, as has been stated above, to circumvent type approval/emissions regs.

As to whether Prodrive, IM or someone else do them, again that's immaterial as it's it's another case of the manufacturer's agent (or their subcontractor) doing the job.

It potentially is, but in reality it isn't as the manufacturer's agent has informed the insurers of the existence of the car. The situation's the same as it was with previous spec eds like the RB5 and P1. IM tell the insurers what the spec is, and the insurers add it to their database. It'll be added to the insurance database at 320ps, not 265, and thus the car should be insured as a standard Subaru Impreza STi WR1, not a modified STi Type UK.

It's a moot point though as the Spec C and S202 are imports and have to be insured as such. The WR1 is an official UK market car, sold by the manufacturer's agent, and there is no direct (i.e. identical spec) equivalent of it in Japan.

Not going to happen. The answer is that "You insured my car as a standard Subaru Impreza STi WR1. This is what the car is described as on my policy; it is totally standard and in conformity with the specification you have on your database".

The work isn't being carried out by an aftermarket tuning company, it is being carried out by the manufacturer's agent or their subcontractor.

No reason why anyone would take offence, your line of logic's perfectly valid. In practice though, it doesn't work quite this way.

MTR

Grease Monkey,
You may well be correct.
But you might not be.

The car I drive complies with the specification laid out by Subaru UK, ie a STi Uk with PPP at 305PS. Wether or not it is registered or filed on some insurance database is (in your terminology) a moot point.

The FACT remains (at least in my situation) that a car of one standard (STi type UK for me, and whatever the base vehicle used for a WR1) is registered and insured by customer, THEN it is modified.
The insurance companies are not interested with who modifies it, just that it has been modified.

Trying to tell them the part number for a PPP, and that it is a dealer fit option doesn't make the slightest difference.

Even if the vehicle leaves the factory with some form of non standard spec enhancement, they want to know about it.
IE full leather interior etc, usually (but not with Subaru) fitted at the factory to suit customer order requirement.

In fact in some of the Subaru literature I have read, mention is made of the need to inform your insurance company of any modifications to your vehicle, failure to do so may invalidate your insurance.

When dealing with legally binding agreements (insurance policies) it is in the interest of the customer to precisely confirm what is and isn't covered by the policy.
And to verify for oneself that the policy you have paid for adequately covers the vehicle to which it is assigned.

In the event of some mishap, any previous correspondance between Subaru UK, Prodrive or any body at all with the insurance industry, will count for absolutely nothing, if it is not agreed between you and your company alone.

The contract you take out when insuring a vehicle involves only yourself and your insurance company.
If they are not happy with the disclosures made, then they may well invalidate your policy.

Within the isurance documentation there is often a question about wether the vehicle is modified. body kits, wheels etc

Its all very well people like us debating on wether it matters or not, or Subaru UK have got that one covered, you don't need to say anything.

Subaru UK will most definately NOT foot the bill if your insurance company decide not to honour your policy, and neither will you.

My viewpoint, just as yours or any one elses, counts for absolutely nothing.

The only thing that counts is that a customer is 100% honest with their disclosures to an insurance company.

Copying and pasting our points of view on here won't help.

Customer to insurance company:
What do you mean your not fixing my totalled £30K car, Grease Monkey, on Scoobynet say its all sorted with Subaru UK, and some person I spoke to at a brokers said I didn't have to disclose the fact my car was modified after I insured it.

Insurance company to customer:
Who's Grease Monkey or your broker?
You better ask him/them to pay to to fix your car then sir, because we won't.

If your policy documents have words something like this.
'has your vehicle been modified in any way'
(you have confirmed the PPP bit is fitted after its insured by the customer. That seems pretty unambiguous to me)

And you answer NO.
Are you positive that there couldn't possibly be any problems in the future.

Some insurance policies forbid using your vehicle on ANY race track at ANY time.
Even if you were attending a Gala, funfair, brass band contest or whatever.
If you drive your car on a race track you are NOT COVERED, irrespective of wether you were NOT speed testing, pacemaking, racing etc and all the usuall exemptions.
They don't make exceptions. They just don't pay up.

The insurance company will not tolerate ambiguity.
They ask a question, and expect a honest answer.

Its certainly a point worth confirming.

And if I was buying a WR1, the only person I would trust to clarify the situation is my insurance company directly (not broker). As my contract would be with them not the broker or agent, and not with Subaru UK.

Its the customers signature on the legally binding policy documents sent back to the insurance company, NOT THE BROKERS SIGNATURE.

All good fun this, isn't it.

Sometimes it pays to be paranoid.

Cheers
MTR

Simon Lines

Grease Monkey is 100% correct, IM tell the ins chaps the spec and it's added to the d base. When you phone up and say WR1 it comes up as such.

If this was not the case you would have to spend half an hour explaining what you have....

It's just like P1, P1 is on the ins d base as a "P1" as is the RB5, etc, etc

Phone your insurer and ask...

Cheers

Simon

MTR

Simon,
Nice of you to clarify that.

Somebody from IM better phone Privilege insurance company up, as on their web site it lists the car as a 2 door!!
I have just been on to get a quote.

£746 fully comprehensive. Quite impressed.
Bet they load me when I tell them i'm having 2 extra doors though.
Modified sir, sorry can't quote you.

Grease Monkey,
I concede it does appear they recognise the car in its own right.
Why don't they acknowledgew the STi PPP I wonder?

I fact non of the insurance companies I have previously phoned know who or what Prodrive are, or what a PPP kit constitutes.

Cheers
MTR

chrisp

600 for me from direct line and has all the doors

Simon Lines

I agree you should be carefull, I totaly agree to always question things. I for one would if I was spending £30k.

I am sure it's all ok though, I remember it did take a litte while on the P1

Cheers

Simon

chrisp

The STI PPP isnt a model

The STi is the model

The PPP is an aftermarket option, sold by IM (designed by Prodrive).

The WR1 is a model and comes with the PPP included as standard.

Simon Lines

IM, we work for them.

Cheers

Simon

chrisp

altered accordingly

MTR

Simon Lines,
As you are here, and taking up on Chrisps comments about the STI being a vehicle model but the STi PPP isn't a vehicle model, why not?

I was in RN Goldens on Saturday, and the salesman explained that if he was trying to sell on my MY02 STI Prodrive style with PPP, it has a smaller market due to the fact the younger drivers (i'm older but have aged exceptionally well) cannot get insurance cover.

You have stated that IM can register specific vehicle types with the insurance industry, thus clarifying the technical specification.

Not wanting to tell anybody how to do their job, but with hindsight would it not have been in IM and Prodrives joint financial interest to get the PPP specced cars listed in their own right?

ie STi type UK and STi Type UK PPP, 2 models.
and WRX or WRX PPP, 2 models.

If customers could get insurance on a standard (PPP specced) car like the WR1, then surely a far greater number of PPP kits and the associated profits would have gone to IM and Prodrive.

Has somebody missed a lucrative marketing oppertunity here?

The quote I have just got for A WR1 is less than my current policy with a different company, for my lower specced STi 02, although I couldn't be bothered to requote for my car on the Privilege web site, as it takes so long.

Obvoiusly for people in my current situation then it may help lessen my insurance premiums, and get the wife of my case.
I really do not want a Renault Scenic, I don't care how dam comfy they are, or cheap to insure. (no offence to Scenic drivers, my dads got one).

A great number of insurance companies refuse to quote on modified vehicles completely.

If you can influence this in any way, I am sure there would be many satisfied customers, plus your manager should be extremely pleased at your insight into exploiting an underutilised marketing oppertunity.

You may get a wage rise. Heres hoping.

I will negotiate my next PPP discount for my 5th Impreza Turbo directly with you.

Cheers
MTR

Simon Lines

To be honest I don't know the answer to your comments / Questions. I look ofter the USA but I'll speak to Mike on Monday (as i'm sure you know he looks after the UK) and see what the deal is. Please understand there my be some "official line" involved though

As for a rise to afford one well I have a 92MY with 03MY JDM mechanicals, inc all the DCCD-A, 6MT, twin scroll, etc, etc. I do take your point but it would take a hell of a lot to get me to change from that...

It's on the "projects" forum

Cheers

Simon

Brian the Sn@il

mmm so basicly do the Insuranc peeps have a WR-1 listed on their database.

If not .. oh dear.. HELP !!!!

Scooby Lee

My insurance company had the WR1 correctly listed and are currently insuring me for it and my present car (52 Reg STi PPP) at the same time................for less than orignal cost of the STi!!

............I'm justing waiting for the WR1 to be delivered!! (I have my 'Pack', so this should be very soon!!)

Fidd

Have you seen your 'pack' yet Brian ????

You can stick the WR1 tax disc holder and other bits in the Caddy Van for a bit while your waiting for the car !!!! .... LOL