Alan C

OK. I have read many posts about the definition of ‘community’ in relation to Simon and Shaun’s vision of returning the SN ‘community’ back to some sort of common purpose. This post may or may not help, but in this new spirit of positive help to get the BB back on track, here is my take on what this ‘community’ should be.

There are several definitions of community, so at the end of the day, I have taken a few of the obvious and closest definitions. The ’community’ leaders should then inform us of the closest match, in their view.

The following were taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica; and funny enough, the word community follows straight after communism

Community:

People who reside in one locality and are subject to the same laws and have the same interests etc.

Common ownership of an area.

My favorite.

A group of interdependent organisms inhabiting the same region and interacting with each other.

No definition mentions leadership. But to make our particular community work, we must know what that community is. Are we all party to the same decision making process? Do we all share in the running and maintenance of the community? Are we all on the same footing? No. No and No.

Therefore by definition this community is led, by unelected people, with certain agendas. This is not a bad thing, in fact, without these agendas; the BB would be in total anarchy. Therefore, to make it work well, the community must be led well.

Weak leadership will result in the BB being misused and abused. Too strong leadership will alienate many in that community.

The leadership MUST strike a balance between the two. This means taking into account all constructive views, whether in agreement or not. At the moment, I believe the balance has swung towards the latter as control is sought of the loud minority. The decent majority are feeling (and seeing) the negative effect that this has.

I am not party to the plans the leadership has to make this a more ‘community’ friendly place. The worry is that many people will be silenced and their perceived negative views deleted because their idea of community spirit is different to the leaders. One truly helpful post mentioning that the Muppet forum was a waste of bandwidth and should be removed, was labelled as 'nearly' anti-community (?).

This type of overt mindset is happening now with many criticizing threads being locked or deleted because of a minority who turn a good argument into a childish one. Care must be taken not to turn this into a community where the only way to be heard is to agree.

I have never seen so many Webmaster posts. Posts that are negative themselves and are flippant in the extreme ‘We do not want you’ and ‘If you do not like it, leave’. The irony is that this type of posting is leveled at the same type of flippant, discourteous and offhand comments. Comments that are not wanted by the same leadership using them. Neither side will win these pointless arguments by proxy posting, so don’t rise to the bait.

The majority, who are here by privilege not right, really must accept what is happening or leave. The leadership has made this quite plain. The leadership, on the other hand, must do what they feel is right, and accept the comments (good or bad) that come along. By deleting, locking or attacking the negative comments, you bring this leadership to its knees, and achieve nothing.

I am quite pleased with this, especially as I have just got back from a ‘spirited’ drive on a lovely sunny day, and fully realize what the SN community means to me. A Shared common purpose with like minded enthusiasts. I waved to one or two as well, as they enjoyed their day.

STi VII

Good post.
This is taken from Sociology an interactive aproach by Nik Jorgensen et al
Community can be broken down into three broad categories: places, social relationships and shared identity.

Matt P

Well said Alan C. A well-balanced post I feel.

Sticky Stuff

Nice post Al. When you going into politics for real?

As the activity over the last few days, with regard to the Google adverts in particular, has shown, I personally think one of the biggest problems with issues of this nature is the sheer number and length of the myriad posts related to one subject.
I don't have a clue (and I aint gonna count 'em) how many posts were made regarding the Google ads, but the arguments, both for and against, have been spread across so many seperate posts that it's been impossible to keep track. When one particular post has become popular it has been replied to so many times that it's quickly become a problem trying to keep up with the momentum, and therefore putting any views together that begin to make sense has been very difficult.

Perhaps it's time for a simple poll of users opinions, give a number of options for one question (i.e. Google ads; yes, no, not bothered either way, etc) this way we could at least get a quick and accurate overview of the general concensus of opinion.

Perhaps the 'for and against' committees could each have a small section beforehand in which they may put their case in say, 100 words or less.

I know Scoobynet does not appear magically from the ether, and that a lot of people devote lots of time and energy into making it all tick-over, and I feel that this point must be made clear to some members who don't realise what goes on behind the scenes, but if this point is made, and made well then perhaps a few of those who jumped straight onto the 'no' bandwagon would have a little re-think.

Just my bit, FWIW

Andy

greasemonkey

Yes, not bad. I think one of the points of this whole situation though is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to quantify the size of the "minority" due to the rampant censorship that Simon and Shaun have been indulging in over the past few days.

We've seen an entire thread full of legitimate discussion deleted, together with sundry other posts that aren't "on message". Is this any way to shape "community spirit" in the brave new world?

Simon has made it pretty clear here that he's not interested in polling the opinions of Scoobynet users. His position seems to be that the majority of "supportive" Scoobynet members are in favour of them, and the way in which the forum is now being run, and that only a small minority of "complaining", "abusive" or "unpleasant" individuals aren't. I doubt he'd be interested in unleashing a chain of events that might undermine that stance.

I don't think you'll find anyone taking issue with that.

Or that...

I think you are under-estimating the perception of some of the people who've spoken out. Some of the people you're talking about have been closely involved in the running of this forum in the past, others are long-standing and loyal members, others have been involved in the running of other forums/websites. Almost all of them contribute to the quality of this community on a regular basis simply by sharing their knowledge and experience.

As mentioned above, nobody (I believe) is questioning the need for the infrastructure that underlies this forum to be financed. What many of us are questioning is the increasingly dictatorial management style that has been employed by Simon (with or without Shaun's compliance). Right now, Simon seems to be defining this community as "people who agree with me". That isn't, and never was, how Scoobynet has worked, and the sooner that particular penny drops, the sooner that genuine community spirit will start to improve.

mj

You intrigue me Mr Greasemonkey.........:]

question - what is it that winds you up about the way SN is run so much?, are you a Mod with a beef?, or do you have a board of your own?


..actually that's 3 questions.

..puts on "quote jacket" & runs for cover.....

sarasquares

iTrader: (1)

he's coming to get ya....lol

mj

haha, when he's finished typing maybe....

sarasquares

iTrader: (1)

lol, he has got 3 hands and...........ha ha 'he's behind youuuu'

greasemonkey

I've already answered similar questions in detail here in reply to a post of yours MJ. Did you not read it?

As I've just said, my fundamental objection the dictatorial way the board is now being policed by the management team. Specifically the way that anyone who doesn't agree with the opinions of the webmaster and the way he is now choosing to administer the forum seems to be automatically referred to as "unsupportive", "abusive" or a "horrible personality", or indeed a "small complaining minority".

Furthermore, I object to the way the webmaster claims to speak for "the majority", while deleting comments posts/threads that offer a contrary point of view, thus making it impossible to quantify the size of the "minority" (if this is indeed what it is).

Why would you think I was a mod with a beef, or what difference would it make if I did run a board of my own? I've already told you I have no axe to grind.

As far as the first question is concerned, I'll refer you to my reply to your post in the other thread, where I said that I don't know either Simon or Shaun. Do you think this would be the case if I were a current or former mod? As to the second question, the answer is no, although I've run one in the distant past.

BTW, if your inference is that I have some sort of hidden agenda, I'd advise you to do what I've already requested, and have a look at my posting history. I'm no more (or less) than a member of this community who doesn't think much of the change in direction and atmosphere the last few days have seen.

Brun

I still say i like it how it is

Alan C

Thanks for the comments guys.

But as Sticky correctly states; the ammount of deabting over multiple posts and multiple forums has made the whole debate impossible to figure.

So, the best thing we can ALL do is call it a day and let the boys and girls do their stuff. 'Debating' should now be over. Simon and Shaun have decided on the way forward and will happily take positive comments, and well structured constructive criticism.

Truly negative and pointless statements that add nothing to the whole, and their mission, will have absolutely no effect on what is about to happen.

Furhter posts on the subject, including mine, just add to the noise and don't actually answer any of the questions. They just pose more, as your answers to my original post show.

Whether you agree or not, the changes are here to stay (with more on the way), so just sit back and let's all see how things turn out.

mj

Fair comment greasemonkey, you state your case well.

Why not mail Simon or Shaun directly?, I think there maybe an axe to grind here, ok, it's a forum - but if you feel that strongly about the way it's run take it off the board so to speak, talk to the "organ grinders", not the monkeys.

greasemonkey

TBH MJ I'd rather that anything that has to be said was said on the forum, where every member of the community is in a position to read it if they want to.

As one of my principal objections is to the way that legitimate opinions have been deleted from Scoobynet, I feel it'd be more than a bit hypocritical to start emailing people and thus taking any discussion away from the wider community.

I can assure you there is no personal axe to grind with Simon or Shaun. The only reason I have referred to them by name is that it's noticeable that the moderating team seem to have played little active role in what has gone on over the past few days, and hence I felt it necessary to refer to differentiate between the management team and the mods.

greasemonkey

Events have proved that this clearly isn't the case Alan, that's the problem. Did you happen to read any of the thread that got deleted for example?

[Edited by greasemonkey - 1/25/2004 6:47:08 PM]

tiggers

As I said yesterday Simon seems to fail to realise that we are all part of 'Scoobynet' and hence our opinions should matter whther they are in accordance with the management or not?

As for all this majority/ minority crap it's very easy when having created a post saying that opinions that don't cocur with the management way of thinking will be deleted to then hold that post up and say 'Oh look everyone agrees with me'.

tiggers.

Alan C

Guys,
Simon and Shaun WILL take positive comments and Constructive criticism. But the problems occurs when 'your' type of CC is not Simon's.

I'm sure that there are certain things that I could say to you in good faith, that could end up with you asking me outside (I've seen it one here dozens of times).

People are not really understanding of that fact.

Can't you see why Simon and Shaun have stopped replying?

They can't argue their case with everyone. Becuase we ALL have differing views on what is good and not good for the BB. And we all have views on what is helpful and what is not. They HAVE to rise above it all.

That was their first mistake. They asked for CC, and they got it. In every guise from a positive comment to downright hostility.

Their second mistake was to fight back and try and justify what they had done and why they had done it. This allowed everyone to put in their two peneth worth. Again in every guise from positive to hostile. They couldn't win. They wont win.

Simon's style is a little more forthright than Shaun's. Your style is different to mine.

So.. all that mix, thrown into the pot caused all this. They've now done the right thing. Gone quiet in the hope that it will die down, and it will. This will then free them up to crack on and make the changes regardless of what you or I now think.

We've all got a cracking BB. For free. OK, mistakes have been made, they will again. They've done things that some people object to, and others agree with. Who's right? No one. But at the end of the day, it's their board, their dream, their ideal, their plan.

They didn't have to ask for our opinion in the first place. But they did, and look where it ended up. Don't hold your breath whilst waiting for them to ask again. Unless they can come up with some form of cross in the box voting.

Anyway, they and the mods have done a good job up till now. Plus, the're only human, so cut them a little slack.

ex-webby

I cant say this enough but thank you very much for everyones support, ideas and constructive critisisms (negative or postive) over the past few days. The feedback we have had has been tremendous, together with the multitude of support offering emails to both Simon and myself.



The reason why Simon and myself have not been around much over the past day or so, is because we are already looking at many of the suggestions that have been discussed and testing ideas. I am not quite sure where this weekend has gone and I am sure my eyes are going square!

As has been pointed out.... changes are afoot to make this community even better, which I can quite catagorically state the vast majority is behind us and giving us ultimate support... to all of you that fall in to this catagory I thank you.

To the others that add non-constructive critisism, abuse and moans.... If you would like to leave, please do. If you want to moan/argue, you will be ignored.

Regards,
Shaun.

mart360

I see no balance if we have to toe the line so to speak...
we have a supposed community .... but only if you say yes...
that is not a community thats a flock of sheep...

greasemonkey, i couldnt agree more!!!!!
people seem to miss the point of what is scoobynet..

Simon may be the webmaster over scoobynet, and can rightly or wrongly dictate his terms and what he wants within the community..

however he/they must accept, all he actually owns is the intellectual & binary shell (best way to describe) that is scoobynet...

if all the members left, scoobynet would still be there, but would be a collection of empty web pages,

the real essence of scoobynet is the collection of the members that make it.. both for and against

we could all transfer to "superscooby.com" and the community would carry on....

Has scoobynet become a victim of its own success?? is it now bigger than the webmaster can control?

are the "new changes" an attempt to gain control once again!!!!

surley a poll of the community would have given some indication as to the way the members feel.

it would appear that the community (sic) it trying to achieve an utopian state .... with only yes members posting..

you cannot achieve any form of balance if that is the case, there then becomes no leadership, it just becomes the will of one person.....

we are criticised for moaning and speaking out, when we dare to disagree with the norm, but how else are we supposed to make our views known???

given that any negative posts are removed, the balance of the board, and part of what makes it what it is is now lost..

"The emperor has some new clothes anybody!!"


mart

ex-webby

Mart360,

I have never nor will ever object or not encourage constructive discussion, critical or otherwise. What I do not accept is discussion that is neither constructive and balanced. Moaning and arguing (and in some case clear abuse) is neither constructive nor worth while.

It has to be said that we have discussed many issues, but it is when that discussion degrades to other means that causes issues.

Once again I am all for discussion, if this was not the case we would of not received all the views of the commmunity on how we can improve Scoobynet.

I will never expect a person to not have an alternative view to mine. But it is the way that differing view is made that matters. I would just like to underline that fact again.... constructive negative feedback is as good as postive feedback.

Regards,
Shaun.

Alan C

Mart,

Your views pertain to you. Someone may agree with those views, but they too will have a slightly different take on what is right and wrong about all of this.

I cannot answer all of your questions. Why? Becuase that will lead to more questions, and no answers! Get it?

At this time we all have to agree to disagree.

However, I do not feel that I have to say 'yes' to Simon, Sean or the mods. I am free to disagree with them, as I have done above. But there is a point, sometmes, where this disagreement degrades into something personal, and that is not right.

Look around. There are plenty of posts from Simon and Shaun thanking the poster for their considered and reasoned suggestion.
What is wrong in asking for that?

My personal views disagreeing with what you and greasemonkey have said are pointeless. As soon as I post them, you will disagree with me. OK in itself, but I have seen too many posts degenerate into an inane drivel that embarasses anyone with an ounce of common sense.

But hey, that's just my take on inane drivel. It may be different to yours. WE do not set the tone, Simon, Shaun and the mods do.

It's time to move on. I am. This will be last I post on the subject, as I have a life to get on with.

Regards

Al.

ex-webby

Mart360,

Sorry just read your reply again....

I have never removed a negative post nor thread that has been put across in a constructive way. The only posts and threads of this type that get removed are ones that have either deteriated to a such a state, or broken forum guidelines or broken any other request within that specific thread/post. I am quite puzzled why you are suggesting otherwise.

Anyone can make there views known.... by being constructive and not for example saying "This is crap - I hate x,y,z", I am not expecting people to belong to a Scoobynet Borg. If you think we are doing something wrong tell me, because you may have a good reason why it really is wrong, so I would be really arrogant to think that discussion was not worth while and I was always right regardless.

Regards,
Shaun.