jason4656

ok i went to the main dealer today in my01 wrx to enquire about ppp, and they so happened to have a nice used wrx sti for sale, so i went for a test drive...as you do lol

and the power performance feels so different, the 6 speed box is excellent very quick nifty changes and i didnt feel hardly any turbo lag changing up at 7000rpm, where as with my wrx when i change up its like a delayed reaction when you press down again.

I am wondering once adding ppp to the wrx, is it gonna be similar to the sti performance wise?

once you add the ppp to the sti making it to about the 300bhp whats the difference between the 2 performance wise? i mean to make the extra bhp? can u make more mods to the wrx safely to make it closer to the performance of the sti? without compromise of blowing it up i mean? also i know you can do stuff like exhausts and induction and different turbos and so on, but not without voiding warranty, so i am basically just lookin at the differences between the 2 engines and performances

Can you add a quick shift to the wrx to make the gear changes similar to the sti?

or shall i just buy one lol? that was tempting by the way, would appreciate some input so i can decide what to do next

thanks

[Edited by jason4656 - 11/19/2003 7:09:36 PM]

my00scooby

iTrader: (1)

Most people that post here reckon the standard WRX with PPP is as quick as a standard STI due to the torque, but obviously the WRX PPP wont touch the STI PPP, difference of 55bhp.
You can fit a quickshift to your WRX, a friend of mine has it fitted to his and it makes a good difference.

MJW

Hardly surprising really, as the revs will still be in the boost range when you let the clutch up. Maybe its the STi's shorter gear lever throw which is making you notice a difference.

Power and 0-60 times are about the same for the PPP WRX and the std. STi. However I don't think 0-60 time is a good benchmark since the gear ratios are different in the STi. I recently had my MY02 WRX PPP'd and noticed a good (if not earth-shattering) performance improvement.

erm.. quite a lot !

Yes, you can add after market (and warranty-threatening) mods which will increase the power to the equivalent of the PPP STi - most here seem to favour the Tek ecu and Scoobysport de-catted exhaust system, amongst other things. Since yours is a MY01 and approaching the end of the manufacturer's warranty, you'd be better taking this option if you want more power.

Yes you can get the Prodrive quickshift which reduces lever travel by about a third IIRC



[Edited by MJW - 11/19/2003 7:57:13 PM]

chrisp

Actually once you factor weight into the equation there is only 17bhp difference between the STI PPP and WRX PPP

DrEvil

Chrisp - is that dependant on the driver?

jason4656

thanks guys, great answers, still wondering what is it that makes up that extra 55bhp then? i mean i beleive they are the same basic block/engine? is the turbo different? or something else im missing?

I still have 1 year left on the warranty so dont want to compromise just yet, i am thinking first off its the ppp and the quickshift then for a start and see how it feels, i was just reluctant to spend another 2k that could go towards an sti if its not going to be what i want.

thanks again for the input

jason4656

by the way, one more relevant question, a friend of mine makes performance exhausts for some of the bigger companies, and says he can make me a performance system from manifold back quite cheap, without cat, what type of performance increase do you get from doing this? i know its a warranty issue but im sure can replace it if it has to go in

thanks

hades

ON STI, 6 speed box - closer ratios, less rev drop between changes. However, STi has bigger turbo, so worse spool up - i.e. the turbo will come in earlier in the WRX. Standard STi is very flat below 4000rpm IMHO.

The way the PPP is done in the early WRXs is less advanced than the 03WRXs and the STi, which is where some of the power drop comes from - the new WRX PPP gives 265bhp.

My WRX at the PE rolling road day (full exhuast, ECUTEK, over 280 bhp both times it's been tested), was only 10bhp off an STi PPP, and has a wider, flatter torque curve. Having followed an STi PPP up to 140mph (not on public road, of course), there was not a lot in it. However, full exhaust and ECUTEK on an STi can give up to 340bhp (tops, on the right rollers), which will be quicker still.

If you want to go for serious tuning, the engines can both be tuned to similar ultimate power outputs (400bhp has been done with FMIC, the right turbo etc). However, the STi gearbox is a lot less likely to break at 350bhp+.

hades

Same block? pretty much. STi has different cylinder heads with variable valve timing. The turbo is bigger VF35, versus TD04L on a WRX, which means more power, but worse lag and slower spool up (try booting both at 3000rpm in top gear). Think it is also different pistons (someone else will confirm).

jason4656

so would you get much difference adding a quickshift? i know it doesnt alter ratios but less rev drop in between changes as you could change up quicker, right?

also noted that my01 wrx, well the one i drive, has nothing at all below 4000rpm, its like you are just setting off when passing 4000.

can you explain more, less advanced? are you saying its not that good?

does the ppp remove centre cat? or just make it fast flowing? i have had 2 different stories

thanks

[Edited by jason4656 - 11/20/2003 12:04:16 AM]

hades

Adding a quickshift would make virtually no difference to rev drop when changing gear, the main difference is because the ratios are closer in the STi. The quickshift will make the gearchange faster and nicer to use, but that is not the same thing.

The standard WRX should be picking up reasonably well from from 2500-3000rpm, and making virtually peak torque/acceleration by ~3500rpm from memory. If you've really got nothing until 4000rpm, there is probably a leak somewhere (headers, up-pipe or around the intercooler). Fixing that will make things a lot better!

I believe that both PPP kits remove the centre cat and change the intercooler hose. However, the ECU modification on the original 01-02 cars was a fairly crude boost increase via a piggyback chip. I believe the 03 WRX PPP uses the Ecutek software to fully re-map the ECU (but using prodrive's own map, rather than the map from anyone else). This gives better adjustments to fuelling, timing etc, and therefore more control and more power (20bhp more than the "old" PPP).

Don't get me wrong, both systems have undergone all the testing that prodrive do to ensure they won't blow up the car, and maintain your warranty. It's just that the newer system is much nicer technically and gives better results as a consequence.

jason4656

thats strange i thought it was the ecutek with a fully remapped chip in the my01. Does anyone know anymore about that? or has had it done?

ok thanks for all your input i understand, about my car, its been on maindealer computer, they said its perfect, nothing wrong so there is not much i can do, but im certain it doesnt start to pickup till higher revs, its like it starts slower at 3k then at 4k you can feel the turbo happen, but only up to about 6 then 6-7 is a bit of a struggle. When i drove the sti it was more like 3-7 straight round without worry, more like the opposite of how you described it above

thanks

NotoriousREV

I know of a handful of fugly WRX's making ~290bhp without the PPP, IIRC for a lot less than the cost of PPP.

MadMark

I'm the lucky boy whose 03 WRX made 252bhp on just a Prodrive backbox on the PE rolling road day, so nearly up to PPP levels without having done anything much. I am confident that with the Ecutek or Link and a fuller exhaust system I should get close to 300bhp.
I am hoping that this will give me STI Performance in a more discrete package ..... but horses for courses!

jason4656

what type of things notorious? apart from ppp?

jimmymc

i have a uk300 with shortshift/h&s decat/induction. it has made a vast improvement to performance (although not yet sure as not been rr tested) i have also driven my mates wrx ppp and there isnt alot of difference in performance. only difference is i paid less.

MadMark

Hades - can you give me some idea of what you have done to your car to get those figures - offline if you prefer!

Cheers, MM.

MJW

The first PPP kits available for the MY01 utilised the piggy back chip which increased power from 215bhp (on MY01) to 245bhp. The newer kits (which are available to fit to MY01-03) use a replacement ECU and give 261bhp. Basically if you order a PPP kit today, it will give your car the equivalent performance of the MY03 PPP, leave your warranty intact and add about £1k to the resale value.

Regarding the exhaust system, AFAIK with PPP they do not remove the cat from the centre but use a 'high-flow sports cat' : this is what I was led to believe from Prodrive's sales literature anyway. If you're going to get a full de-cat system you'll need to map the ECU to account for it.

If your car feels flat till 4000rpms I suggest you get it checked out ! Turbo should start to spool up at about 3k and top out at 5.7k. I've noticed that since mine was PPP'd spool up starts earlier (about 2.7k) and there's a shedload of torque available from 3k up to 5k which makes it much more drivable and less 'spiky'.

At the end of the day there's two options :
- Go for PPP giving 261bhp ; leave warranty intact and increase resale value.
- Go for 3rd party exhaust/ecu which will give a lot more power for less money ; risk invalidating the year's warranty left on it, and your mods will be worth nothing (and may even dissuade people) when the time comes to knock it in.

I went for the first option and am happy with it, but if you're the kind of person who likes to have all your RR dyno readouts in frames over your mantlepiece then go for the second one !!

jason4656

mjw thanks, i havent got a fireplace so i best go for option 1

how do i know which kit i am getting? the dealer i went to john wildings didnt even know the price of the kit and what it got with it, i knew more than him, he tried telling me it was like 1600+vat and it takes 6 weeks to get it! so just want to be sure i get the right one i guess?

WrX 03

Should be £1600 inc of VAT!

jason4656

yeah i thought as much, and he even told me he would fit it for 200quid on top of the 1600+vat like he was doing me a favour lol. So are all new kits now the ecutek? not the piggy back for the my01? or do you have to choose? or specify which one you want?

thanks

MJW

Price should be £1600 including VAT and fitting, no matter which dealer fits it. Just tell the dealer who's trying to have it up you for another £200 that every other dealer you've consulted charges £1600.
All the new kits are supplied with the new ECU, so there should be no problem there - the older kits are no longer manufactured.

[edit] The 6 weeks delivery time seems a bit excessive - I was quoted a 3 week delivery period and it arrived within 6 days !



[Edited by MJW - 11/20/2003 4:46:30 PM]

hades

MJW - there is no sports cat in the WRX PPP. It is a decat centre section, leaving the other cat(s) in place. The STi PPP removes the centre cat, and replaces the downpipe with a sports cat item.

Mark - my mods are ported headers, SS decat up-pipe, APS sports cat exhaust, Samco intercooler hose, ECUTEK 2.

Power band wise - a standard WRX will tail off after 6000rpm, but should be pulling OK by 2500rpm and full out by ~3500rpm. A standard STi7 (I've not driven an 8) will have power coming in with a vengeance at 4000rpm and continue pretty well to around 7000rpm. PPP on either will spread the power band. Full decat and remap on either will spread the power more. My car pulls hard from 2500-7000, making ~280bhp from 5800 to 6800 revs. On first RR run, it made 260lbft+ from about 2800 to 5500ish (I think slight error in torque/gear ratio cals last Saturday made it appear to have less torque than it actually has). Spreading the power up and down the rev range makes a lot more difference to the car on the road than just improving the peak bhp.

macka

Jason I bought a WRX PPP but drove the STi PPP for a good hour long test drive, I agree with hades, the WRX pulls from lower down the revs for all the reasons quoted by others - I guess, spool up ,weight , gear ratios but the STi pulls harder from 4000 than the WRX and keeps pulling for longer where the WRX PPP runs out of steam.
From a seat of your pants point of view the WRX PPP is an easier car to drive quick with less gear changes and a smoother ride however the STi PPP is definately a faster and more full on speedster but for my money and long miles the WRX PPP with 3 yrs unlimited mileage warranty was just the ticket at 21k ish and only a slight difference in real life performance unless on a race track!

By the way sounds like you may be better speaking to another dealer?

chrisp

All the prices are on subaru.co.uk under accessories wr sport


[Edited by chrisp - 11/20/2003 8:23:19 PM]

SCOOBAY

I noticed that sti PPP is nearly 2k against wrx 1.6k.What do you actualy get for your money.I know you get 305bhp against 265bhp but why is there 400quid difference for the same 40bhp increase.

Del

chrisp

sti has a fuel pump and sports cat extra

and much easiuer to add 40bhp to lower powered engine as its less stressed to start with

[Edited by chrisp - 11/20/2003 8:51:50 PM]