PPP MY02 = PPP MY03 ?
29 October 2003, 12:06 PM
#1
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I was reading through a thread the last day and came upon someone discussing PPP for bug/blob eyes. I want to get my facts straight as sometime is the near future I'm likely to trade my classic wagon for a bug-eye (I like 'em 
).
I suppose the main 'problem' for me when I'm about to change has always been the perceived performance drop between the classic (I have DP+BB) and the bug-eye. EVO have them at a 4+ second gap on the 0-100 time
Even PPP on a MY01/02 in the past (i.e. UK300 test in EVO) doesn't really make me rush out and buy one. I believe the ECU change for the PPP was a piggy back chip (a la Superchip stylee).
The thread I looked (last week I think) stated that if you have an MY01/02 and buy a PPP from your local dealer you are now getting an Ecutek remap.
So performance wise now there is no difference between an MY03 PPP and an MY02 PPP.
Is that correct?
I know that the MY03 ECU was mapped for Optimax type fuel and the MY02 wasn't but surely the PPP remap now negates this.
The MY03 PPP is getting a rave review .. so surely the bargain of the decade now is getting a more unpopular MY02, PPP-ing it .. and bingo 0-60 in 4.8 etc etc ...
Am I missing something, apart from the buy-eyes what difference is there between MY02 and MY03 ???? Any suspension changes ?? etc etc?
Cheers,
Doofus.
).I suppose the main 'problem' for me when I'm about to change has always been the perceived performance drop between the classic (I have DP+BB) and the bug-eye. EVO have them at a 4+ second gap on the 0-100 time
Even PPP on a MY01/02 in the past (i.e. UK300 test in EVO) doesn't really make me rush out and buy one. I believe the ECU change for the PPP was a piggy back chip (a la Superchip stylee).
The thread I looked (last week I think) stated that if you have an MY01/02 and buy a PPP from your local dealer you are now getting an Ecutek remap.
So performance wise now there is no difference between an MY03 PPP and an MY02 PPP.
Is that correct?
I know that the MY03 ECU was mapped for Optimax type fuel and the MY02 wasn't but surely the PPP remap now negates this.
The MY03 PPP is getting a rave review .. so surely the bargain of the decade now is getting a more unpopular MY02, PPP-ing it .. and bingo 0-60 in 4.8 etc etc ...
Am I missing something, apart from the buy-eyes what difference is there between MY02 and MY03 ???? Any suspension changes ?? etc etc?
Cheers,
Doofus.
29 October 2003, 12:17 PM
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In terms of the performance gain of the PPP on an 02 to an 03....its my understanding that an 02 PPP's to 245bhp? the 03 to 261bhp, im prepared to be corrected on that, its also my understanding that there were a few "minor" tweaks to the 03's handling, dont quote me on that though.
Remember that the 03 starts 7bhp up on an 02 also......
Hope that helps a bit
Neil.
Edited to say...I think your right, the 02 is probably the bargain performance car of the moment......and if you like those looks, then go for it sir!! I didnt so hence why i bought an 03. Also i cant believe that there woul dbe anywhere near a 4 second gap in a 0-100 dash, be lucky if there was 1.....
[Edited by Neilo - 10/29/2003 12:19:00 PM]
[Edited by Neilo - 10/29/2003 12:24:59 PM]
Remember that the 03 starts 7bhp up on an 02 also......
Hope that helps a bit
Neil.
Edited to say...I think your right, the 02 is probably the bargain performance car of the moment......and if you like those looks, then go for it sir!! I didnt so hence why i bought an 03. Also i cant believe that there woul dbe anywhere near a 4 second gap in a 0-100 dash, be lucky if there was 1.....
[Edited by Neilo - 10/29/2003 12:19:00 PM]
[Edited by Neilo - 10/29/2003 12:24:59 PM]
29 October 2003, 12:30 PM
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Right,
First off - the majority of old shape owners hate the bugeye for its looks - and fact it weighed a bit more. The acceleration characteristics as standard are more linear - so they always thought it was slow... as the tested figures showed. However that simply isn't the case.
I have a PPP'd MY01 WRX - i've been out on several runs with the midlands lot - there really isn't much of a difference in performance - old/new - they "ALL GO LIKE STINK" - in the real world - not santa pod. I certainly have never been left behind. Sure - a WRX STI V6 leaves car lengths gap under WOT - but not "left for dead" as you'd think looking at the figures on paper.
So for 95% of the time the bugeye is indeed a bargain.. despite what the haters have to say.
The PPP will be very similar - just you'll save SHED LOADS on the MY02.
Jza
First off - the majority of old shape owners hate the bugeye for its looks - and fact it weighed a bit more. The acceleration characteristics as standard are more linear - so they always thought it was slow... as the tested figures showed. However that simply isn't the case.
I have a PPP'd MY01 WRX - i've been out on several runs with the midlands lot - there really isn't much of a difference in performance - old/new - they "ALL GO LIKE STINK" - in the real world - not santa pod. I certainly have never been left behind. Sure - a WRX STI V6 leaves car lengths gap under WOT - but not "left for dead" as you'd think looking at the figures on paper.
So for 95% of the time the bugeye is indeed a bargain.. despite what the haters have to say.
The PPP will be very similar - just you'll save SHED LOADS on the MY02.
Jza
29 October 2003, 12:42 PM
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Neilo,
You say that the MY03 starts 7 BHP up on an MY02, surely that's because it's been mapped for Optimax type fuel.
Once both ECU's have been mapped though it's the same, both will have same information with regard to fuelling, timing etc so you're 7 BHP disappears, the MY02 has the same engine as the MY03 and now the same map?
I suppose then what I need clarified is that if you buy a 2nd hand MY02 and get it PPP'd what am I getting ? 245 BHP or 261 BHP?
I'm assuming it's 261. Why PPP for MY02's was only 245 before is because Prodrive are mapping the car using a piggy back methid, Ecutek has come along and they have the capability of squeezing a but more out by a 'proper' remap so you're now getting 261 ??
If it is 245 BHP why do MY03's get 261 ? Same engine, same remap?
Anybody care to elaborate?
Doofus.
You say that the MY03 starts 7 BHP up on an MY02, surely that's because it's been mapped for Optimax type fuel.
Once both ECU's have been mapped though it's the same, both will have same information with regard to fuelling, timing etc so you're 7 BHP disappears, the MY02 has the same engine as the MY03 and now the same map?
I suppose then what I need clarified is that if you buy a 2nd hand MY02 and get it PPP'd what am I getting ? 245 BHP or 261 BHP?
I'm assuming it's 261. Why PPP for MY02's was only 245 before is because Prodrive are mapping the car using a piggy back methid, Ecutek has come along and they have the capability of squeezing a but more out by a 'proper' remap so you're now getting 261 ??
If it is 245 BHP why do MY03's get 261 ? Same engine, same remap?
Anybody care to elaborate?
Doofus.
29 October 2003, 01:42 PM
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I'm not sure if the MY01/02 WRX PPP now is based on the "new" method i.e. using the EcuTek software tool to allow Prodrive to remap the ECU or if for these two model years, the old Piggyback Board method is still used. I know that the MY02 STi PPP is now the "new" remap method, so it would make sense for the WRX to be.
There is actually a 10bhp difference between the MY01/02 WRX and the MY03 (215bhp plays 225bhp (218 quoted for the WRX was in PS, not BHP)).
I'd also be surprised if the MY03 has specifically been mapped for Optimax as remember, from the factory, the Euro-spec WRX is supposed to work across Europe so I would imagine they designed it to work on what is readily available, i.e. 97RON Super. I am guessing however and could easily be wrong! Anybody owning an MY03 WRX care to tell us what fuel is recommended for this car? If it's been mapped for Optimax then I would expect the manual to recommend the use of a 98RON fuel, if not, 97RON.
Matt
There is actually a 10bhp difference between the MY01/02 WRX and the MY03 (215bhp plays 225bhp (218 quoted for the WRX was in PS, not BHP)).
I'd also be surprised if the MY03 has specifically been mapped for Optimax as remember, from the factory, the Euro-spec WRX is supposed to work across Europe so I would imagine they designed it to work on what is readily available, i.e. 97RON Super. I am guessing however and could easily be wrong! Anybody owning an MY03 WRX care to tell us what fuel is recommended for this car? If it's been mapped for Optimax then I would expect the manual to recommend the use of a 98RON fuel, if not, 97RON.
Matt
29 October 2003, 01:43 PM
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I have just traded in my MY99 UK Std 4dr for MYO2 wagon, which will be fitted with new PPP (I test-drove it without PPP fitted).
I haven't picked it up yet, but since I have also driven two MY00 Classics with PPP and a MY03 WRX PPP I should have a fair idea of the relative perception of speed between each!
I will also find out which ECU they have fitted to the bugeye....
Wilster.
I haven't picked it up yet, but since I have also driven two MY00 Classics with PPP and a MY03 WRX PPP I should have a fair idea of the relative perception of speed between each!
I will also find out which ECU they have fitted to the bugeye....
Wilster.
29 October 2003, 02:06 PM
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You may be correct with regard to optimax mapping, im certainly no expert on the subject but it would explain a few things for sure, i think that either way your going to have nailed yourself a complete bargain, i love my car, and i havent even had it PPP'ed yet, but then i was driving a rover 214 with 74bhp before! If and when i get it PPP'ed im sure that my fondness for the car will grow even more.
But like was also said, in real world conditions, be it classic, bugeye, or blob, they would all be pretty similar given the same driver
Buy it, enjoy it......then mod it some more.....(the start the cycle again
)
But like was also said, in real world conditions, be it classic, bugeye, or blob, they would all be pretty similar given the same driver
Buy it, enjoy it......then mod it some more.....(the start the cycle again
)
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29 October 2003, 02:11 PM
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I think that the power quoted on the new MY03WRX is on >97 fuel.
Subaru probably don't recommend 95 but you can run on it at a lower power. (I know my last Audi quoted 180 BHP at 97, but less on 95).
I'm gueesing that the MY02 at 215 (or whatever) is on 95. I would
guess if you ran Optimax in an MY02, it would adjust parameters in the ECU so the difference between MY02 and MY03 is negligible.
I think the only questions I need answered is if you buy an MY01/02, add PPP on it now. Do you 1. Get a 'proper' remap i.e. not a piggy back and 2. Do you get 245 or 261 BHP?
Can anyone tell me ? I know Mike Wood could.
Doofus.
Subaru probably don't recommend 95 but you can run on it at a lower power. (I know my last Audi quoted 180 BHP at 97, but less on 95).
I'm gueesing that the MY02 at 215 (or whatever) is on 95. I would
guess if you ran Optimax in an MY02, it would adjust parameters in the ECU so the difference between MY02 and MY03 is negligible.
I think the only questions I need answered is if you buy an MY01/02, add PPP on it now. Do you 1. Get a 'proper' remap i.e. not a piggy back and 2. Do you get 245 or 261 BHP?
Can anyone tell me ? I know Mike Wood could.
Doofus.
29 October 2003, 02:13 PM
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I've got an 03 WRX and it has "98 Octane Minimum" inside the fuel flap.
What I can tell you is:
A) It has been run on Optimax since new - except for one tank of standard '95 when it ran like a bucket of nails under full boost and lost lots off it's throttle response.
B) A few of us had a little run round the countryside last Sunday and the '01 owner (V5 Man) was complaining about being "rogered" everywhere by a bog standard '03.
What I can tell you is:
A) It has been run on Optimax since new - except for one tank of standard '95 when it ran like a bucket of nails under full boost and lost lots off it's throttle response.
B) A few of us had a little run round the countryside last Sunday and the '01 owner (V5 Man) was complaining about being "rogered" everywhere by a bog standard '03.
29 October 2003, 02:16 PM
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ha ha ha, bad driving perhaps? (i reckon the 03's a kick *** car tho )
I totally agree with the optimax running, mine ran awfully when i ran it on 95, lost boost at high revs, didnt pull half as well. might as well have had a punto.
)I totally agree with the optimax running, mine ran awfully when i ran it on 95, lost boost at high revs, didnt pull half as well. might as well have had a punto.
29 October 2003, 03:01 PM
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Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to reply
So .. a bonus for all you MY01/02 non-PPP owners .. your bug-eye can have a new style PPP and be as quick as the 'raved' about MY03 PPP.
Must be the best bargain around at the moment
I think I would be a touch peed-off though if I'd already paid for a piggy back PPP already. I suppose there wouldn't be much difference between the two on the road but for some apparent reason the bug-eye performance always get slated whereas the MY03 with a literally HUGE advantage of 10 BHP max receives 'back to classic levels of acceleration' comments.
I can't figure it out ... ?
MY00 - 215 BHP - great
MY01 - 215 BHP + 150 Kgs up from classic - poor
MY03 - 225 BHP + 150 Kgs up from classic - great
IMHO the bug-eye is given a bit of a pasting performance wise for no reason.
Roll on MY02 Wagon + PPP soon
Doofus.
[Edited by Doofus - 10/29/2003 3:02:33 PM]
Thanks for taking the time to reply
So .. a bonus for all you MY01/02 non-PPP owners .. your bug-eye can have a new style PPP and be as quick as the 'raved' about MY03 PPP.
Must be the best bargain around at the moment
I think I would be a touch peed-off though if I'd already paid for a piggy back PPP already. I suppose there wouldn't be much difference between the two on the road but for some apparent reason the bug-eye performance always get slated whereas the MY03 with a literally HUGE advantage of 10 BHP max receives 'back to classic levels of acceleration' comments.
I can't figure it out ... ?
MY00 - 215 BHP - great
MY01 - 215 BHP + 150 Kgs up from classic - poor
MY03 - 225 BHP + 150 Kgs up from classic - great
IMHO the bug-eye is given a bit of a pasting performance wise for no reason.
Roll on MY02 Wagon + PPP soon
Doofus.
[Edited by Doofus - 10/29/2003 3:02:33 PM]
29 October 2003, 03:12 PM
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Just one sec. I seem to remember when I was researching whether to buy an 02 or an 03 model the difference in the 70-100 time was quite large. I put this down to the fact that the 03 has more torque?
Let's face it an 02 with PPP will be a brilliant drive and I doubt you would notice a difference unless you went from one to another.
Just my 2p worth........
Let's face it an 02 with PPP will be a brilliant drive and I doubt you would notice a difference unless you went from one to another.
Just my 2p worth........
29 October 2003, 03:18 PM
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Well,
According to my (possibly dodgy) maths, that makes the Power to Weight figures:
MY00 167 bhp/ton
MY01 149 bhp/ton
MY03 156 bhp/ton
MY02/03 STi 177 bhp/ton
Perhaps it's less about the power to weight but how the power delivery vs weight makes the car "feel"?
Matt
According to my (possibly dodgy) maths, that makes the Power to Weight figures:
MY00 167 bhp/ton
MY01 149 bhp/ton
MY03 156 bhp/ton
MY02/03 STi 177 bhp/ton
Perhaps it's less about the power to weight but how the power delivery vs weight makes the car "feel"?
Matt
29 October 2003, 03:38 PM
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The man from Prodrive has said it all, sounds like a bargain to me if you can end up with the same performance on a bug eye as an MY03 PPP - I've just spent 21k on such a car.
Have to say It's fantastic tho - and I've driven quite a few scoobs and it is the way the car delivers the power this year with lots of mid range torque that makes it so driveable.
Enjoy!
Macka
Have to say It's fantastic tho - and I've driven quite a few scoobs and it is the way the car delivers the power this year with lots of mid range torque that makes it so driveable.
Enjoy!
Macka
29 October 2003, 04:25 PM
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Doofus
The 01/02MY & 03MY Performance Packages are almost identical and achieve the same results.
Mike
The 01/02MY & 03MY Performance Packages are almost identical and achieve the same results.
Mike
The guy quoting bhp/tonne is well off!! The MY01&2 are lighter than the MY03
Jza
29 October 2003, 04:32 PM
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so my original figures were right then!!
Both are great cars!! end of story!!
Oh and just to correct the bhp figure of an 03, its 222bhp 225PS, as per the brochure. The 01/02 is 215bhp, so i would guess 218PS.
So now you know.
[Edited by Neilo - 10/29/2003 4:33:30 PM]
Both are great cars!! end of story!!
Oh and just to correct the bhp figure of an 03, its 222bhp 225PS, as per the brochure. The 01/02 is 215bhp, so i would guess 218PS.
So now you know.
[Edited by Neilo - 10/29/2003 4:33:30 PM]
29 October 2003, 04:41 PM
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Jza
I read something different into Mike's reply. I think he was saying that, although the original piggy backed PPP on the 02 car made 245bhp, if you PPP an 02 car today you will get an ecutek based mod which will make 261bhp, the same as an ecutek modded PPP'd 03 car.
I read something different into Mike's reply. I think he was saying that, although the original piggy backed PPP on the 02 car made 245bhp, if you PPP an 02 car today you will get an ecutek based mod which will make 261bhp, the same as an ecutek modded PPP'd 03 car.
29 October 2003, 05:07 PM
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Hmmm. Depending on where you get the weights from, you get different values. AFAIK, the original MY00 was 1285kgs, the MY02 STi is 1470 and acording to Subaru's website, the MY03 is 1395. If the MY01/02 WRX is 150kgs heavier than the MY00 that would make it 1435 kgs (which sounds right to me). I think Subaru have got the weight of the MY03WRX wrong on their website....???
Matt
[Edited by mutant_matt - 10/29/2003 5:12:37 PM]
Matt
[Edited by mutant_matt - 10/29/2003 5:12:37 PM]
29 October 2003, 05:29 PM
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Regarding MY02 and MY03 PPP giving the same results this can only be true for the STi PPP. The WRX changed considerably between MY02 and MY03. For example the MY03 uses Active Valve Control, the MY02 does not.
As far as fuel is concerned if you use Optimax(98RON) and then put in SUL(97RON) you most certainly get to know about it as the ECU adjusts to the poorer fuel, usually under acceleration. You also notice the engine becomes reluctant to pull to say 6000RPM. Not sure how they measured PPP power output but these engines are not happy with 97RON, they want better, unfortunately for us, but not for Shell.
As far as fuel is concerned if you use Optimax(98RON) and then put in SUL(97RON) you most certainly get to know about it as the ECU adjusts to the poorer fuel, usually under acceleration. You also notice the engine becomes reluctant to pull to say 6000RPM. Not sure how they measured PPP power output but these engines are not happy with 97RON, they want better, unfortunately for us, but not for Shell.
29 October 2003, 05:40 PM
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The 01/02MY & 03MY Performance Packages are almost identical and achieve the same results. Mike
Almost identical, but not quite: I take it Mike is referring to the components. So what is the difference?
Wilster.
29 October 2003, 07:51 PM
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I've always seen the 01/02 quoted at 1380-1395kgs. Never weighed mine, admittedly. No problems with acceleration on my MY02, but with ecutek, full exhaust and a few other minor mods, I'm about 206bhp/tonne.
Not criticising prodrive - they have to fund the development of a guaranteed warranty safe product. However, early bugeyes are just about getting to end of warranty, so going ecutek/exhaust route will get more performance per £ than the PPP.
Not criticising prodrive - they have to fund the development of a guaranteed warranty safe product. However, early bugeyes are just about getting to end of warranty, so going ecutek/exhaust route will get more performance per £ than the PPP.
29 October 2003, 08:41 PM
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To quote from a well known weekly car rag changes to 03 include fitting sodium-filled valves, lighter valve springs. Stifening the floorpan of the new car means the saloon is apparentley 250 per cent more resistant to bending than before, the hatchback 239 per cent, which subaru claims improves crash safety, ride and handling. Further dynamic tweaks include a revised pump for the speed sesitive power steering system to enhance sytability and , on the saloon a 20mm track increase. Both springs and dampers have been revised : the springs are marginally stiffer than they were and the dampers are of a higher specification .Subaru has also slightly altered the suspension pick-up points, again to ensure increased control of wheel movement.
Shame they left the standard brakes un-altered!! all the above applies to the WRX.
Regards
John
Shame they left the standard brakes un-altered!! all the above applies to the WRX.
Regards
John
29 October 2003, 09:25 PM
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Hi DBY,
I think you'll find that the floorpan changes refer to the MY01/02 as compared to the Classic, as does the track increase on the saloon (hence the flared wings on bugeye saloons as distinct from wagons).
STI Mate - I wasn't aware that the MY03 WRX uses active valve control. Surely this is the JDM MY01/02/03 WRX that does, as distinct from the UK/European spec WRX. The STI is a different matter.....
I think you'll find that the floorpan changes refer to the MY01/02 as compared to the Classic, as does the track increase on the saloon (hence the flared wings on bugeye saloons as distinct from wagons).
STI Mate - I wasn't aware that the MY03 WRX uses active valve control. Surely this is the JDM MY01/02/03 WRX that does, as distinct from the UK/European spec WRX. The STI is a different matter.....
29 October 2003, 11:44 PM
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There appears to be some confusion over the physical & performance differences between 00, 01/02 and 03 cars, with or without PPP. Not yet covered in the SIDC FAQ, the usual reference point for such things....?
Wilster.
Wilster.
30 October 2003, 02:03 AM
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I had the PPP fitted to my 02 WRX at 5K miles (about a year ago). Since, it's been RRd at 2 different places, and produced 260bhp and 265bhp - both times running on Optimax. Prodrive state the car will lose around 25bhp when running on 95UL.
Cheers
Cheers
30 October 2003, 11:52 AM
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Harry_Boy
Yes that suprised me a bit. The info comes from IM directly after dealer enquiries. MY02 STi brochures clearly show the Active Valve Control. When the MY03 STi came out the Active Valve Control dissappeared from the brochures. Apparantly one of the reasons for the extra power from the MY03 WRX compared to MY02 was as a result of the inclusion of Active Valve Control to all turbo models. Hence my comments above Re. differences in PPP performance for the WRX but probably not so for the STi which already had Active Valve Control.
Yes that suprised me a bit. The info comes from IM directly after dealer enquiries. MY02 STi brochures clearly show the Active Valve Control. When the MY03 STi came out the Active Valve Control dissappeared from the brochures. Apparantly one of the reasons for the extra power from the MY03 WRX compared to MY02 was as a result of the inclusion of Active Valve Control to all turbo models. Hence my comments above Re. differences in PPP performance for the WRX but probably not so for the STi which already had Active Valve Control.
30 October 2003, 11:19 PM
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I had an 01 ppp and now have an 03 ppp. To be honest I noticed little real difference between the two power wise in everyday use. When pushing it in low gears the 03 does seem to go better, however it does suffer from more lag in 5th than the 01. The main benefit of the new model is the improved suspension. It soaks up the bumps better, especially mid-corner, and gives a lot more confidence to push the car ( when and where it's safe of course ). There's also a bit less roll than the 01.