Ian Cook

17" Wheels as standard

3 year Subaru Warranty

Dealer Support

Whole Vehicle Approval

Some of the reasons its more expensive.

PhilBennett

Yes I'm talking about the P1 and those lovely people at IM.

I mean just what is going on with you people? Just goes to show why all these marketing chaps at Subaru UK get paid squillions.

It's kind of like "The Kings new clothes" story. Like what is this suspension specially tuned for UK roads?

The people who part with upto £40K for an Impreza deserve to get ripped off. The funny thing is that these people are in normal circumstances very intelligent with top jobs.

Tell me how do you justify the extra £4K for a standard P1 against a WRX STI Version 6?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I agree with Phil

PhilBennett

17 inch wheels cost what? £1000?

As far as warranties and dealer support goes - if you buy through a larger importer then you can have all that too - An importer like Park Lane is bigger than most official subaru dealers anyway! A 3 year warranty won't cost £3000.

And what is vehicle approval worth?

Tim Bomford

SVA is £165!

Jonathan

Dont worry Phil I'll rise to the bait.

Some of us cant be arsed to have to change suspension, wheels etc for aftermarket items, and just want a car that is great out of the box.

Take a std STI

Crap Wheels, Crap Suspension, Crap ECU, No Alarm, No Tracker, No Dealer Back up, One Year Warranty, Crap Resale.

I love STI's, but the 26-27k you spend when you buy it is nearly 31k by the time you sort it out (and you wont get much more for it come resale). Most STI owners on the list recommend Possum, which means you now have a 26k car with no warranty. Most STI owners change the suspension as well. The P1 already has the following.

17" wheels (pure sex)
Cat 1 Alarm (Insurance Required)
Trackstar (Insurance Required)
3 Year Warranty (Quite Handy)
Great Suspension (Let the STI TRY to keep up)
110 Dealers to sell your car to
Plus all the good parts of an STI
Great looking Bodykit
No puffy pink badge
2 Door Body without the Brixton Tints
A car with EVO's award as best drivers car
Bright Button

Yes Ive driven one and owned an STI. In fact I think they could of charged more. Great Value to me.

STI's and P1's are for different types of customers. Not sure how my P1 is nearly 40k though. Both have their place in the market.
If you like tinkering with the car and adding bit and pieces then buy an STI. If you dont a P1.

Jonathan

waiting for the "but the STI has Climate" snooze.

Ian Cook

I said SOME of the reasons its more expensive???

Warranties from some warranty companies arent worth the paper they are written on, and they whinge when you start a claim. Have heard of several people getting stung.

Forgot the Trakstar and alarm, suspension, aerodynamic aids, etc etc, price up an STi 6 now and add it up, the prices are probably identical, and the SVA is going to be over 1000 pounds later this year too.

ChrisB

YAWN!

Haven't we had this argument before numerous times?

Time to lock the thread!

Chris.

Stef

Phil.

I can see your point, and personally wouldn't pay £10 more than a UK car for it, but it's still a lot of car for the money.
What's your opinion of the 22B's £40k price tag? Worth twice the price of a UK car? Some people would think so, as I guess in both cases your paying for a fair degree of exclusivity, and to some people that's priceless.

Stef.

PhilBennett

Hi Stef - Firstly I think the price we pay for our cars in the UK is a P1SS take anyway - however for the moment that is how it is.

I'm not a Subaru expert and whilst I like the Impreza - and having driven several different model/spec at Donington the Impreza is an amazing bit of kit - however I'd never buy one mainly because I like my road car to be comfortable, even automatic!

Regards the P1 - it has been created as a marketing excersise and isn't because it is superior in an engineering sence.

The 17 inch wheels are an irrelevance as you can go to any OZ supplier for the same.

They claim the P1 is the car you can drive from London to Glasgow and get out feeling relaxed. Hence it has softer front springs.

However is this how we truely see the role of a STI or Evo 6?? I think not for me (and I'm sure others) it is a 100 mile A and B road point to point car - with the occasional trackday thrown in. The last thing we need is softer springs.

Then people start scraping the bottom of the barrel to justify the price with stuff like, Alarm, warranty, bodykit, blah, blah.

Autocar and now Top Gear don't really rate this car - but you can see from the treads that people want to make excuses for it.
Autocar said the P1 generally understeers - and you could see from the pictures that it struggles to keeps it's nose up and rolls far worse than the Evo 6.

Autocar's headline was damning enough!

At the end of the day if people are honest with themselves the main reason is the Prodrive badge and the limited supply - it is the snob value. If these people were Arabs, Prodrive could sell them sand!

If I was going to spend £30 on a motor I'd buy 2 cars. A Caterham 1.6 superlight for the track and then something economical and comfortable for the road.

Jonathan

Rannoch

If an STI costs 27k Warrender, Park Lane etc your argument on the Euro Scoobies holds pretty true for them as well (ok you might need another 3k)

So are you selling the STI and getting nearly 2 Euro Scoobies ?

Jonathan

Euro Scoobies are almost a dead option though reading other threads on this BBS.

Jonathan

Jonathan

Phil

Top Gear said the choice between EVO VI and P1 would probably come down to your favorite rally car. Car rate it the Ultimate Impreza and EVO the best driver car.

Seems you only read negative stuff and your brain doesnt take in the positive.

I do drive 400 miles in a day, take customerss and suppliers with me. Ride is important. And after my drive the handling was perfect for me.

I would agree do 100 miles a week, plus occasional track days and want something with a very hard edge and the STI would get you by, but dont forget the remap for hot summer day track days. You yourself posted about STI engine problems on track. 900 pounds and you warranty gone.

JOnathan

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I still agree with Phil, but perhaps for different reasons.

What makes a great car - the answer is it depends (obviously) - but to me it is the uncompromising application of engineering to a specific task in hand.

For example -

Mercedes (any Merc saloon realistically) automatic - softly sprung, not a sports car, but cossetting and with unsurpassed directional stability because this is what makes long distances less fatiguing.

BMW - takes the above concept and weaves in a bit of sportiness - reduces overall comfort, reduces the directional stability - so not yet a real sports car, more tiring to drive

Which is compromised?

Take the Audi S3 - honed performance hatch - or compromised because the original prototype was faster and better handling than the TT and so Audi Marketing slowed it down and softened it up

Is it compromised?

Original Porsche Boxster - original car is a great car crying out for more power - it didn't get some from day 1 because Porsche marketing didn't want to undermine the '911' proposition.

Is it compromised?

P1 - take an uncompromising rally bred saloon and reengineer it to drive comfortably from London to Glasgow (Autocar 'slower steering, less sharp handling')

Is is compromised?

So, if you want relaxed journeys and need performance, buy a C43 or an M3.

If you want a real car buy a Euro Turbo, 'cos you'll get two for the price of ONE P1



R

PS All this crap about 'Crap Wheels, Crap Suspension, Crap ECU, No Alarm, No Tracker, No Dealer Back up, One Year Warranty, Crap Resale' is mostly of questionable veracity anyway.

My car came with near perfect suspension (£200 to fix), Cat 1 alarm, Three year reputable warranty and serviced by two dealers both within ten miles of my house.

strong

Phil,

I think you're being a bit hard on the P1. Note that I'm not at all interested in buying a P1, I'm perfectly happy with my UK Turbo.

Reading your last post someone might think that the P1 was a pile of crap, yet Autocar said it was massively quick and a great car but when put up against an Evo 6 was a bit of a let down because Subaru reckoned it was going to kick the Evo's ***.

You also seem to think that the P1's "UK tuned suspension" is a big marketing lie, when it is probably its biggest asset.

Autocar praised the P1's superb ride, and you simply don't get this with an STi from what I've heard. You also say the P1 rolls far more than an Evo 6, well what do you expect when the P1 actually rides well, which is not what I've read about the Evo!

The point is there are plenty of people that want a car that is faster than a UK Turbo but just as comfortable. Autocar commented that even the UK car didn't absorb bumps as well as the P1. As an all rounder, the P1 seems pretty good.

Paul

johnfelstead

just a point.

The impreza is not a rally bred saloon.

The impreza rally car is a road saloon bred rally car!

Like all rally cars, it is a development of a road car, not the other way round.

Marketing always makes me laugh.

Is the P1 worth the money?

Obviously it is, as people want to buy it.

I personaly wouldnt spend that much on a road car. My aproach is to have a very capable road car (impreza sport) and a bonkers track/sprint/weekend fun toy, westfield ZEi 220 (275BHP turbo).

The above costs much less to buy and insure.
The westfield costs just £380/year to insure fully comp including full track cover for a car with ferrari killing performance.

It makes complete sense to me anyway.

PhilBennett

I guess I do sound negative - I'm not I think the Impreza is a great piece of engineering.

However Autocar's headline for the issue in question read something like - They call it the ultimate, find out why we don't.

For sure there are positive things in the article because the Impreza is generally good.

I'm not firing into the Impreza - but my impression of the P1 is that it isn't worth the extra thousands and that to try and call an Impreza a GT car (which is what a car built to drive to Scotland from London would be) is crazy.

If you wanted to arrive as relaxed as possible on that kind of journey then for £30-40K you'd buy a Merc or a Jag surely?

Sam Elassar

interesting thread,
just a point I would like to mention. you don't buy a 30k car and think about value for money because obviously you are loaded. so all this debate about the extra 4k in price is not very relevant. it will not be long before we see some of the P1 owners start changing bits and pieces any way.
however if you want the best value for money, like what I did ( I obviously could not afford 30k ). get a standard turbo from Europe (17k), add link ecu+ full exhaust +air filter(2k)ap brakes (2nd hand)+alk. total 20k. for a car that will no doubt beat/keep up the P1/std sti on the track


[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 23-04-2000).]

Stupot

Johnathan
I have an STI 4 and I love it. It has the standard ECU and does not suffer from det, the suspension is great, not too hard, not too soft, has 18 months warranty left, the gold wheels look great in contrast to the silver paintwork and has never let me down ever.As for resale, I own the car because of the way it rewards me with the driving experience I get. The day I worry about resale is the day I need to buy a Volvo and become "numb" to any driving pleasure to be had. The P1 has the majority of its parts taken directly from an STI anyway so IMHO, its a tarted up STI made for the gullable UK market who pay thru the nose for their cars. I like the look of the P1 and would love to own one but Ill be damned if id pay the price Subaru are asking wether I was loaded or not.If you are awaiting a P1, I think you are saying these things to make yourself feel better.

whew, thats better.
Stu

zoog

John,

I ve been thinking on the same lines for a while myself now, and the idea of a Caterham superlight r 500 keeps coming to the fore.

How would that compare to the Westfield

Trout

iTrader: (1)

J,

Bugger, you got me.

STi V for sale, apparently, expensive rubbish.

Any offers,

R

Stupot

Johnathan,
I have had no problems removing brake dust from my wheels ever. I use Zymol wheel cleaner and it is ridiculously easy to clean off dust, tar etc. Other scoob owners have commented on how clean and bright they look... u may want to give Mr Zymol a call for your wheels. Resale, my point was if I enjoy my car then it was worth the depreciation to be suffered. Theres a difference between that and being ripped off before you have had any enjoyment at all. Suspension, I have yet to do a track day so I can not comment on its ability there but the ride AND handling are just right for me on the road. Agreed there is understeer but the P1 suffers from that too so it would have to be corrected on both cars. Show me a P1 driver that wont be looking forward to his/her first mod also.

Stu

johnfelstead

The caterham is a lot lighter than my westfield.

It should kill me in the corners but on the straights forget it, i will destroy it.

I didnt want a car i would have to hussle to enjoy big speed. I wanted the car to be comfortable on a long run to Le Mans and yet absolutely balistic on track aswell.
A 275BHP cossie turbo powered westfield suits this down to the ground.

I just love the power delivery of a big boost turbo engine, i would think in lap times the caterham will win, but i want a car that gives a big grin factor with much more power than grip, lap time is not important to me.

On the public road my car would be much easier to drive and is more practical, it doesn't wear you out on a long journey. I am sure a caterham superlight would do, especialy due to the engine power only coming with high revs.

I considered a mega-busa westfield (hyabusa engined lightweight) but couldnt see myself enjoying driving a car you have to rev to 12K on the road, it would be great as a track only car, but i want to go to europe and scotland etc in the car in summer.

horses for courses i guess.

PS, it is so easy to get more power from the cossie engine, i currently have 275BHP. To get up to 330BHP will cost me about £500.

PPS, on a run i get 40MPG so dead cheap to do long runs.

suba

johnfelstead

how about the new kawasaki ZX12 engine rather than the suzuki hayabusa? the kwak engine suppose to give more bhp and lighter.

Blow Dog

jOHN,
wHAT POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO YOU GOT?
(BHP/TONNE)

cEM

AHH..**** CANT BE ARSED TO RETYPE...TOO LATE

Jonathan

Is it me or do some of the STI owners on this board have selective listening/ reading.

They are so protective of their STI's it unreal. Well I can be the same on the P1. From all the arguments Ive heard the only one STI owners have is price and anyone that analyised it properly would see through that one.

Mention Resale and "a car is not an investment", but they moan that IM are charging 3-4k more for a P1. Now who's worried about money ?

Do STI owners ignore the fact that Warrender, Park Lane etc are charging 27-28k for an STI. Thats without all the other things mentioned earlier in the thread.
17" wheels, security etc


"its a tarted up STI" from all the press releases Ive read, I agree and so does IM. The P1 is an STI with the poor bits sorted. STI remaped it etc.

Im sure that if most STI VI owners looked at the real cost of their STI to P1 spec it might even of cost more.

"comfortable ride" well that must mean it handles like a bus to an STI man. Is it impossible to produce a car that handles and rides well ?. Drive the P1 and find out.

Stu

Your car is an old STI so it doesnt seem to have some of the problems asscociated with the new STI's. It only been on the phase II engines with new ECU that owners seem to be advised to go for a remap.

The wheels. Read the threads from a year or so ago. The gold wheels are crap quality. Try removing the brake dust. Ive had two Scoobies with the wheels, spoken to other owners etc. Plus take the std rubber fitted to an import not best suited to UK roads. Most STI owners look forward !! to their first change.

The suspension seems by talking to STI owners and having owned one not the best. Pete Croney's bank account will be living proof.

Resale: your not worried about money so dont worry about the P1 price.


Jonathan

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Tim W - the 4-door STi has longer gearing, although still shorter than the UK car. The best compromise in my experience.

If you are still in the market - unused, unregistered STi Vs can still be had for around £24-25k, INCLUDING Cat 1 alarm and S02s (See STi owners aren't the only ones who don't listen).

At this price they cost about the same as a UK car with air con.



R

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Rannoch, I know there are still a few available at 25k, so are a few sixes, but if you order a new one now to your spec (ie blue and dual Airbags) it is going to cost more now.

Anyway sushhh I want one of them don't tell everyone

I wonder now if was the 4 door Sti gearbox that they've fitted to the P1?

Including S02's? Are you sure, why would an importer change tyres on a new car without charging the earth at the same time!

As I said earlier if I was still in the market it would be a V type R in Black or a VI type R in blue, don't car about the tyres I'd do a deal to put them on my UK car to sell it! Then it's straight on with the 17's and S02s for my new toy

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Tim W,

sorry, had my selective hearing aid in

There are a number of dealers that still have cars to shift and will do deals. So on top of the STANDARD THREE YEAR FULL WARRANTY, they will add Cat 1 and tyres if you bargain.

You're right tho', if you order one to your spec it is going to cost a few pounds more. And if it does, why not get a P1, now it is out there, there have been a few cancelled orders

R

PS As far as I can tell - the P1 has very similar ratios to the STi four-door.

PPS Jonathan - you repeatedly say that STi owners would have to pay X to get their cars to the same spec as the P1 - it is a specious argument, I don't want my car to be the same as the P1 - I want it to be like my car, period. Phew, saved myself a few grand there, then

[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 24-04-2000).]

Jonathan

Rannoch

How good is the warranty once a Link is fitted ?.

Jonathan

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

My Turn!

As most will know I have an MY98 UK Turbo, I'm contemplating a change and so on Saturday decided it was time to try out an Sti for myself. For a while I've been hankering after a V-Limited RA, but without one locally to try I drove a used V type R, loved it, but one major flaw if it was to be a daily driver, the gear ratios are too short! I could probably put up with it, but a lot couldn't.

As I understand it the P1 comes with gear ratios on a par with UK cars, so would be a very civilised daily driver.

Money wise, with the strength of the Yen at tghe moment buying an import from one of the major players will soon be very nearly as expensive. If there's just 2k in it (remeber to add alarm and 24 hour tracking device to your import), and a waranty you know you can fall back on wouldn't you take the P1 a bit more seriously?

Some here are saying why buy a P1, for the same money you could have a toy and a sensible daily hack. Fair comment, unless your like me, only room for ONE car! That's why I and many others bought a scoob in the first place, sensible (ish!) daily driver which can be a weekend toy too!

At the moment if I could shift my car for a good price I'd be of to buy a black Sti V type R. Because I am unlikely to be able to do this I'll hold out till the new model has been around for a year, and then see...mind you I'll be adding a feww more mods in the meantime