Policeman stabbed to death in Manchester
14 January 2003, 11:05 PM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2659133.stm
Its great with hindsight, but on counter terrorism and no protective clothes
Prayers to the policemans family. People forget that without people doing this job we could have large scale deaths due to Mr Bin Laden. We only see the bit that affect us and not all the other bits that let us lead a normal life.
Jonathan
Its great with hindsight, but on counter terrorism and no protective clothes
Prayers to the policemans family. People forget that without people doing this job we could have large scale deaths due to Mr Bin Laden. We only see the bit that affect us and not all the other bits that let us lead a normal life.
Jonathan
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15 January 2003, 08:00 AM
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Hope they catch the skum that did it. 
I was chatting to one of the surrey boys in blue the other night, some of the stuff he told me and the amount of radio activity/content was a real eye openner. They do so much we don't hear about.
I was chatting to one of the surrey boys in blue the other night, some of the stuff he told me and the amount of radio activity/content was a real eye openner. They do so much we don't hear about.
15 January 2003, 08:44 AM
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Im gobsmacked. So sad that what should have been a simple arrest of 1 person turned into a fatal stabbing of a police officer. 3 men in custody, AIUI.
Sincere condolences to his family, and my thoughts are with his kids.
I hope the investigation into this finds out what on earth went wrong and ensures it never happens again.
Nick.
Sincere condolences to his family, and my thoughts are with his kids.
I hope the investigation into this finds out what on earth went wrong and ensures it never happens again.
Nick.
15 January 2003, 08:49 AM
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Hopefully now the Police will be issued with stab vests as standard equipment.
Sympathies for his family and I hope the other officers all recover.
Sympathies for his family and I hope the other officers all recover.
15 January 2003, 08:53 AM
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In this country the police treat everyone as a person rather than a potential criminal, which unfortunately can lead to this happening if you meet a phsyco.
Maybe it's time to start handcuffing everyone who may have commited a crime that is spoken to? (what a bad day that would be)
Edited to make some sense
[Edited by medders - 1/15/2003 8:57:31 AM]
Maybe it's time to start handcuffing everyone who may have commited a crime that is spoken to? (what a bad day that would be)
Edited to make some sense
[Edited by medders - 1/15/2003 8:57:31 AM]
15 January 2003, 09:06 AM
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Its not the police who do nothing, its the damn justice system.
Whats going to happen to them now? Deported, doubt it, probably get pointed in the direction of a supplier of cheap castor oil.
The war on terrorism is being lost; not enough checks being made at point of entry and known suspects (like bin ladens right hand man) are still in this country, f**ked up or what!
Whats going to happen to them now? Deported, doubt it, probably get pointed in the direction of a supplier of cheap castor oil.
The war on terrorism is being lost; not enough checks being made at point of entry and known suspects (like bin ladens right hand man) are still in this country, f**ked up or what!
15 January 2003, 09:06 AM
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Sounds like not only a terrible tragedy but also a terrible mistake. Seems they already had them under arrest and failed to retain control of them. Maybe this highlights procedural problems that need to be addressed by the police ASAP.
Just goes to show that we need to watch all these immigrants/asylum seekers and those with possible allegiance to terrorism. This includes people of all races so is obviously not racist in intent as many seem to claim
[Edited by scooby-new - 1/15/2003 9:08:42 AM]
Just goes to show that we need to watch all these immigrants/asylum seekers and those with possible allegiance to terrorism. This includes people of all races so is obviously not racist in intent as many seem to claim
[Edited by scooby-new - 1/15/2003 9:08:42 AM]
15 January 2003, 09:15 AM
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scoobynew - The only way you can ensure someone can't grab a knife is to either hold them or handcuff them to the rear with rigid cuffs. IIRC they had been under arrest for an hour at the premises. It's something thats done many many times. You don't restrain people for an hour. People are given the benefit of the doubt and not trussed up. If people were routinely trussed up we'd get alot more whining posts on here about the police doing wrongs blah blah. catch 22.
15 January 2003, 09:43 AM
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Sadly crime in the UK is out of control anybody that takes a life should not be put in a cell. they should be put to the ELECTRIC CHAIR, why should we pay to keep them alive.how many on here feel safe any more?
15 January 2003, 10:14 AM
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I don't think there is much in the way of protective clothing for knife attacks. Kevlar certainly works well for bullets, but is crap for knives (blade gets in between the fibres).
15 January 2003, 10:29 AM
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Medders-You have highlighted my point that it is standard procedure to behave the way the police did. Unfortunately in the case of terror suspects it doesn't work -with awful consequences like these.I'm all for keeping terrorist suspects restrained throughout until taken to a secure place and processed. Not talking about "routinely trussing up" normal criminals here, just terror suspects.
Also it wasn't an implied criticism of the police just that the game has moved on a bit from dealing with common criminals to fanatics who would happily kill themselves as well as others.
Also it wasn't an implied criticism of the police just that the game has moved on a bit from dealing with common criminals to fanatics who would happily kill themselves as well as others.
15 January 2003, 10:33 AM
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scooby-new, that's close to interrment though, isn't it?
I'm all for protecting our police (and the rest of the country!) but I think that the problems arise when you take things to the extreme. Who decides whether a terror suspect should be detained? Who decides how long they can be detained without charge?
Something needs to be done, but as always I'm not sure there's a quick fix. Would be very interested in BuRR's opinion on this, as I have no clue as to what is and isn't currently allowed...
Nick.
I'm all for protecting our police (and the rest of the country!) but I think that the problems arise when you take things to the extreme. Who decides whether a terror suspect should be detained? Who decides how long they can be detained without charge?
Something needs to be done, but as always I'm not sure there's a quick fix. Would be very interested in BuRR's opinion on this, as I have no clue as to what is and isn't currently allowed...
Nick.
15 January 2003, 10:41 AM
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I think perhaps I didnt express myself very clearly. I didnt mean remove all their rights- keep them locked up without charge etc.
I was merely talking about extra caution during the time of arrest taking into account the added threat.
Just treat them as the danger they represent until they are in a safe controlled environment- having been searched etc. Then unrestrain them and allow them to be treated as normally as safety permits.
I was merely talking about extra caution during the time of arrest taking into account the added threat.
Just treat them as the danger they represent until they are in a safe controlled environment- having been searched etc. Then unrestrain them and allow them to be treated as normally as safety permits.
15 January 2003, 10:54 AM
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Due to to this dam political correctness, half the time the police go into an incident with their hands tied behind their backs. If they handcuffed the man, then they get accused of heavyhandedness and because they didn't this is what happens.
15 January 2003, 10:55 AM
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Got ya 
It becomes difficult to know where to draw the line though, and how to classify a terrorist suspect... Fully agree with the intentions, and you can bet your bottom dollar that if I was in the position of going against someone who is wanted on terrorism charges I'd be damned cautious at the expense of their personal liberties.
From what people are saying here though, the stabbing happened an hour after the arrest. If someone's been subdued all the way through the hour, then flips, what would you do?
Whatever, someone's been murdered. Lessons do need to be learned and, with the public mood at the moment, hopefully a toughening up of procedures at the risk of pissing off the civil liberties groups would be acceptable. With the news that burglaries aren't to be investigated unless there's a suspect, the announcement that the police want to speak to someone who allegedly assaulted a burglar on his property and all sorts of crap like this, I don't know how much more people will take of the softly-softly approach.
Nick.
It becomes difficult to know where to draw the line though, and how to classify a terrorist suspect... Fully agree with the intentions, and you can bet your bottom dollar that if I was in the position of going against someone who is wanted on terrorism charges I'd be damned cautious at the expense of their personal liberties.
From what people are saying here though, the stabbing happened an hour after the arrest. If someone's been subdued all the way through the hour, then flips, what would you do?
Whatever, someone's been murdered. Lessons do need to be learned and, with the public mood at the moment, hopefully a toughening up of procedures at the risk of pissing off the civil liberties groups would be acceptable. With the news that burglaries aren't to be investigated unless there's a suspect, the announcement that the police want to speak to someone who allegedly assaulted a burglar on his property and all sorts of crap like this, I don't know how much more people will take of the softly-softly approach.
Nick.
15 January 2003, 11:00 AM
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sorry scoobynew we're all getting crossed wires
I'm saying ANY person could potentially do what has happened here. It's happened before. You weigh up the situation. If you read the article all the way down, the chap was being forensically searched which is a process you have to be very careful carrying out. They decided he could not be cuffed but WAS being held. He broke free.
You can't tell who's going to kick off or not in this sort of situation (with nutters) What a nightmare
[Edited by medders - 1/15/2003 11:01:17 AM]
I'm saying ANY person could potentially do what has happened here. It's happened before. You weigh up the situation. If you read the article all the way down, the chap was being forensically searched which is a process you have to be very careful carrying out. They decided he could not be cuffed but WAS being held. He broke free.
You can't tell who's going to kick off or not in this sort of situation (with nutters) What a nightmare
[Edited by medders - 1/15/2003 11:01:17 AM]
15 January 2003, 11:05 AM
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just as an addition, I've just redone my officer safety training. We are told in no uncertain terms that we should NOT be handcuffing prisoners who have shown no violence, which sounds like what happened here.
How on earth are you supposed to deal with this situation facing the obstacles that are put in our way?
How on earth are you supposed to deal with this situation facing the obstacles that are put in our way?
15 January 2003, 11:17 AM
#30
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If they suspected people of being linked to terrorism, they shouldn't have taken any risks.
They should've just got in there as quick as, not waited for any answers, just get them on the deck and cable-tie their hands and feet behind their backs. Check them over for weapons and them get them out of the house and down to the local police station for questioning.
Once they're no longer a threat, then they should be treated properly. The worst they could do in a police cell with a paper jump suit on is throw some punches or kicks.
The Police obviously have to tread a fine line between heavy-handedness and treating people as innocent until they can gather evidence, but if they drop their guard it's gonna cost lives.
They way it was dealt with wouldn't have happened in Ireland and I feel the Police have to take a similar approach over here when terrorism is suspected.
They should never have entered the house without proper body protection and I for one would have supported armed-police dealing with these types of situation.
Stefan
They should've just got in there as quick as, not waited for any answers, just get them on the deck and cable-tie their hands and feet behind their backs. Check them over for weapons and them get them out of the house and down to the local police station for questioning.
Once they're no longer a threat, then they should be treated properly. The worst they could do in a police cell with a paper jump suit on is throw some punches or kicks.
The Police obviously have to tread a fine line between heavy-handedness and treating people as innocent until they can gather evidence, but if they drop their guard it's gonna cost lives.
They way it was dealt with wouldn't have happened in Ireland and I feel the Police have to take a similar approach over here when terrorism is suspected.
They should never have entered the house without proper body protection and I for one would have supported armed-police dealing with these types of situation.
Stefan