scoobyslut

Just noticed in the latest SIDC mag, they have now decided to finally cover up all the reg numbers of member cars, just to deter good old Subaru Uk from using it as photographic evidence against warranty/track day claims.
Good idea, which mag is next to follow???

HELLOM8

One of the BMW mags has had to do the same, its not just Subaru f###ing people over.

Blackscooby

Interestingly AutoCar has a paragraph on exactly this subject after someone had an BMW M3 gearbox go pop on a track day.

Initially BMW refused to pay out... however there is a panel which details other manufactors comments

"Subaru ~ its only right that we cover drivers if things go wrong" Shame there's no name where the comment came from.

Autocar December 11 2002, pg 18 (Top left corner !)

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

why not give AutoCar a ring, and tell them that the quote subaru made is wrong?

ex-webby

I just have to take issue with this..

Subaru UK are NOT "f***ing people over".

You SURELY have to be able to see this logically. Road cars are NOT designed to be blasted around a race circuit.

Even circuit cars require constant expert attention when being thrashed round a race circuit by on-site dedicated engineers, and they STILL go wrong.

The rally cars (which the road going versions are merely replicas of) are immeasurably stronger and fit for the job, but still have a team of highly skilled engineers and technicians keeping them going and are practically rebuilt after each event.

Your warranty says (as I understand it) something along the lines of you will not be covered if you take your car on a track day.

Why on earth should IM cover people for wear and tear items if they are a) in breach of this agreement, and b) doing something with the car that it is not designed for, and probably not capable of sustaining?

Come on chaps.. this kind of attitude is what makes companies less interested in helping out in the first place.

All the best

Simon

CraigH

Simon,

I disagree. The wording is normally abuse and misuse.

The misleading thing is that car companies, especially ones such as Subaru/Prodrive demonstrate their vehicles on circuits. Now I know this is the only place to show a cars performance in relative safety, but i bet you at no time is it mentioned that "if you were to do what we're doing on track today your warranty will be void"

Basically, you buy a performance car.

You can't use the performance on road as:

a: you'll be nicked
b: you'l be killed or kill someone else

And you can't use your car on track as it will void the warranty.

So if you want to enjoy your car without invalidating the warranty, you have to break the law.

Is simplistic but sumss it up in a nutshell.

Adam M

simon,

if the car is not designed as a track day car and should notbe used as such, then what business to subaru have promting their vehicles at events such as prodrive live?

If they didnt do this then fine, but they sell the cars on their track day merits.

HELLOM8

Wrong end of the stick here. What I mean by "Subaru f###ing people over", is not that they won't cover a car that’s been on a track, it's the car number plates of spectators that they see and f### over and the general distancing from there customers Subaru UK seem to be doing at the moment. This is of course the feeling I currently have and seen quite a few posts recently that would suggest the same.

ChrisB

So you're saying that Subaru UK are invalidating warranties on cars just for attending a track day as a spectactor and parking up there?

Hmmmm.

[Edited by ChrisB - 12/12/2002 3:59:05 PM]

ex-webby

Craig

I appreciate what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense, but ..

The fact is.. there is no car that will stand that kind of abuse without proper care and constant rebuilds. How can we expect IM to offer a free service to pay for people putting the strains on the car you would expect in motorsport?

In a way it would be like buying some new brake pads, then driving all the way up the M1 with your left foot on the brake and expect a refund when the brakes exploded. Would you consider that abuse of the brakes or normal use?

If however you bought some le man car brakes and had them professionally prepared for the job, you would be in a better position to complain.

Or how about buying some performance road tyres, then taking them on a circuit and complaining to the manufacturers when they wear out? You could argue "well you can't use the performance on the road as you'd get nicked", but the manufacturer won't warranty them when they wear out on track.

I think at the end of the day, they just don't want people to take the mick.

All the best

Simon

ex-webby

Adam

That's like saying, why do manufacturers compete in motorsport at all?

It doesn't take more than 1% of the intelligence you have to work out a) why they show them off on track, and b) that this doesn't mean you can do a 24 hour le man race in it and it will still be ok.

When they knacker their own car on track, they pay for it. It's their risk and their property, they won't go to the suspension manufacturer and ask for a refund on that unit, and they won't go to the tyre company and ask for fresh ones free of charge (well, they might, but not for that reason).

cheers

Simon

bros2

Honda have never had a problem (that I know of, anyway) of sorting trackdayed bikes. I beleive Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki all have a similar policy.

Then again, VERY little goes wrong with modern bikes. I've done a lot of trackdays and never managed to get any bike to miss a beat even once.

Why the different stance for cars, I wonder? Just less able to take the abuse?

bros

ex-webby

Hi bros

I think you're probably right.. a car has a lot more that can go wrong, and will innevitably take more abuse from the driver than a bike will from the rider as you simply CAN'T be as agressive with a bike as you can with a car or you'll throw it down the road (aah the memories! ).. and the average guy will always take it a lot easier on a bike than the average guy will in a car as it is far more obvious that you'll get hurt!

cheers

Simon

HELLOM8

Not necessasraly invalidating warranties (not on unmodded cars anyway), but its the sneaky taking note of the cars that gets to me.

[Edited by HELLOM8 - 12/12/2002 4:17:45 PM]

mista weava

i read that bmw were invalidating warranties on the strength of the launch control being used to much.

if the car cannot take it why fit it? if you have paid for all the gizmo's then surely you want to use them?

i would be very peeved if i had spent over 40 grand on a car and was then advised that my warranty was invalid from overuse of certain functions! in fact i would probably get the smarmy git at the dealership (isle of wight dealership i am referring to here, not a generalisation of all bmw dealers) by the throat! if i have paid for it, i want to use it esp as these are performance related functions in the case of the launch control and then when it goes wrong within the warranty i want it blo0dy fixed!

is that unreasonable?

weava

banshi

IIRC there is no clearly defined reference, this is supported by the pervious ask IM for clarity/ don't 'cos you know what the answer will be debate.

In fact the after the outrage over the "IM Spying" scenario, I believe a distributor seach indicated that warranty exclusions were modification based and not specifically related to track use.

I will once again reiterate that having been offered a deal on a P1 that was out at Donnington I was assured the warranty would not be affected.

Similarly if IM's position is to exclude track use is it credible that my friends and I were invited to a trackday. Not a Subaru Promotional Event using IM cars, at same circuit by a distributor along with a number other customers.

I fully understand the point you are trying to make Simon. But it is not reasonable to compare highly tuned race cars constantly pushed to and over the limit by competitive drivers, with a spirited couple of laps by an Impreza owner.

Track or Road the "use and abuse" factor should be adequate. If it is not how are the dealers to assess failure of cars driven on continental roads? My car has been driven for longer at significantly higher speeds there than would be possible at a track day.

Then of course, what if I take my car to an old army base or an airfield. And my favorite example, how are the lawyers going to define Nurburgring, which the local council considers a toll road, or indeed attendance at the IoM birthday bash utilising closed public roads

Stop Press .....
Warranty booklet to be extended by 14 pages to include prohibited european locations





[Edited by banshi - 12/12/2002 5:00:23 PM]

EvilBevel

Banshi, easy answer: the Ring is about the only "track" that masks as a public road, and if my insurance is capable of sending me an addendum stating that I won't be insured there (), then it would be a breeze for IM to do the same.

Funny, I'm with SDB on this one. Keep your car standard, use it for public transport, and demand that IM / Subaru will play fair with warranties etc. (and personally I don't think from reading about 5 different BBS's that they *do* play fair, but that's another story)

But.

Make it a track day car, change backbox or air filter, and in both cases say bye bye to the warranty. I can see that logic.

We have to admit we put the cars through serious stresses when we take it on track, no ?

EvilBevel

Jason, methods, I agree. They could for example offer an "extended" warranty (which will cost) to protect the active track day enthousiast.

banshi

Lo m8, We must stop meeting like this people will talk

Bloody hell you learn something every day! I won't ask then

Have you seen my driving! No excessive stress there

BTW my pal with a Civic Type R asked the dealer about mods/trackdays. "Feel free mod whatever you want within reason, we have no problems " and "if your planning a trackday pop in and we'll do a quick check"

TaviaRS

I have a Skoda and so I asked the dealer about mods/trackdays as I do rather like them. As per the civic
So I have taken them at their word and done over 6,000 track miles this year (including 350+ laps of the Ring ). Nothing has broken yet and I've had to do nothing beyond routine maintenance. Also done 60,000 road miles this year.

Have to say, if they did turn round and disallow a warranty claim, well I'd probably be a bit miffed but then to be fair wear and tear is specifically excluded, as is abuse and misuse within the warranty document. Raises a good question for me though, I have unlimited mileage 3 year warranty as standard. When my turbo "expires" within the 3 years will they replace it under warranty or will they say "Sorry Mr RS, you have done 150,000 miles on that turbo, that is just wear and tear, these things only have a finite life?" Answers on a postcard please.

Maybe its because I drive like a granny?

gregh

Evo mag says that subaru say taking your Scoob on track WILL NOT invalidate the warranty but that individual cases will be invvestigated if there is a suspicion that the car has been abused.

Scratch

iTrader: (1)

Evilbevel says : "Make it a track day car, change backbox or air filter, and in both cases say bye bye to the warranty."

Now that's interesting, as my car was supplied with the following modifications and a Subaru Proven Warranty :

HKS induction Kit
Magnex back box
Speedline 17" gold wheels
Front bumper and grille from a MY99 (on an MY98)

So does that mean the warranty isn't worth s**t even though the car was suppied like that ? Or is that not the case as it was supplied like that by the dealer ?

TurboBoost

TaviaRS your car is chipped isn't it? In that case they could argue it was increased stress on the turbo that caused the failure rather than solely the mileage or use (if they know of course...)
Thats an excellent warranty deal, when I had a Cupra it was 3 years 60,000 miles max.

Sounds like a good advert for the VAG mechanicals so far though.



[Edited by TurboBoost - 12/12/2002 8:03:42 PM]

Steve777

iTrader: (8)

Don't Prodrive use standard sTi's on their in house experience days ! So why shouldn't you take your own on a track

cookiemonster

My feeling is that this will go the same way as track day insurance. As more people attend track days there will be more warranty claims - as anyone who's done a number of track days knows, Simon speaks the truth regarding car wear and what they are designed to do. As warranty claims increase manufacturers will have no choice but to withdraw warranties for track use.

All it takes is a few people to take the mick - thrash their car from cold, not do basic checks, change the oil & filter, etc, and hand a knackered engine back with 10,000 miles on the clock asking for a replacement under warranty. I'm sure this is the case already, and thats why we're seeing the beginnings of the backlash.

We're just in a state of flux at the moment - as insurance was maybe 2 years ago, but the future is clear.

just imo

ARRON BIRD

Cant be ar5ed to read this post all the way through but my response to the first couple of post is simple.
I reckon Subaru should stop taking new standard STI`s and stuff around the track on demo days if they want to set a good example to the owners.
BMW and a lot of other marques dont do it???
Setting a bad example I reckon.

ex-webby

Arron

BMW and other marques DO do it. They pretty much all do.

and re : "Prodrive do it so why shouldn't we?".

You can do exactly as prodrive do. Take you own property on track and pay for it yourself when it goes wrong.

Cheers

Simon

Phil Harrison

IMHO, this thread continues to suffer - even the august Webmaster continues to suffer - from a long standing SN confusion. We don't know that an occasional trackday will lead to a voided warranty. It's never been clarified (or, at least, I've never seen a definitive post) as to whether its modding or trackdaying or both at the same time which is causing grief at IM. Whichever, of course, there will be massive grey areas - "how many trackdays"? / "how substantially modded"? And few of us dissent from the view that IM can hardly be expected to warrant a highly modified car thrashed to death on the track (Hence the problem).

And, as someone has pointed out, it's not clear whether it's a good idea to ask. IMHO, IM would be hard put to it to void a warranty for an unmodded car taken to, say, a couple of trackdays a year. For me, at any rate, the Jury's still out, and some people are some are stating as fact what is actually speculation. One of the SN problems, Webby, which no-one can legislate for, is that people scan posts rather than read them carefully!!

Phil
Edits for failed control characters
[Edited by Phil Harrison - 12/12/2002 11:35:06 PM]

[Edited by Phil Harrison - 12/12/2002 11:36:32 PM]

mutant_matt

Well said Phil!

It is still mostly speculation and I suspect any attempt to pin IM down and get a clarification will have one result, IM will state that any Track Use will invalidate the warranty. To be honest, I think we've got it as good as it's going to get where they will look at each case on it's merits on an invividual basis.

Matt

Jza

The thing about this "track day" situation is that there is nothing set in stone from IM.... and thats wrong....

My dealer sold me the car on the fact that i could use it at track days (even to the point of inviting me to join them on one!), and then 3 months later after i've bought the car and i inquire about possible needs for actually doing a track day - im told "dont do that or we'll invalidate your warrenty".

Then IM tell EVO magazine (this months issue) that track days "are ok" - subject to the way you treat the car ???????? Flippin eck. How can i be sure?????

Its not black and white - which is why i won't "do one" until my warrenty runs out!

Jza

PS Webmaster... it certainly makes no reference to "track days" in my warrenty booklet....