Is Cosworth tuning that easy?
14 February 2000, 11:11 PM
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A friend of mine has just put a deposit on a mint H-plate Sapphire Cosworth 4x4. The current owner is a respected Cossie specialist, and claims to have dyno sheets to show that the engine is putting out 347 bhp. Not so bad.
I was surprised to find out that the sum total of tuning performed on the car consists of a Mongoose exhaust, induction kit, and 'chip'.
Is it that easy to make so much power from the Cossie lump? If not, how much horesepower would these changes reaslistically liberate from the engine?
I'm only interested because I'll inevitably get the "my car's more powerful than yours" thing! (Not that i'd swap my Scooby in a million years!)
TIA.
Andrew
I was surprised to find out that the sum total of tuning performed on the car consists of a Mongoose exhaust, induction kit, and 'chip'.
Is it that easy to make so much power from the Cossie lump? If not, how much horesepower would these changes reaslistically liberate from the engine?
I'm only interested because I'll inevitably get the "my car's more powerful than yours" thing! (Not that i'd swap my Scooby in a million years!)
TIA.
Andrew
14 February 2000, 11:25 PM
#2
absolutely not the case youll be happy to know.
The most you can get from the mods you list is 270BHP.
If you want to go above that to get 330BHP you need the following.
4xgreen injectors
1x -31 actuator
1x 3 BAR MAP Sensor
1x ECU chip(on the 4x4 you need a pigy back board on the ECU)
4x AGP601P plugs
If you want 350BHP you need the above plus 3" exhaust, this will run out of puff though at about 6200RPM
If you want it to pull 350BHP with power all the way to 7200RPM you need a hybrid t3/t04 turbo with 360 degree thrust bearing and running at 24PSI.
above 350BHP you need different injectors again and an RS500 intercooler plus diferent map.
and on and on, cossies kick ***.
who's the specialist selling the motor?
The most you can get from the mods you list is 270BHP.
If you want to go above that to get 330BHP you need the following.
4xgreen injectors
1x -31 actuator
1x 3 BAR MAP Sensor
1x ECU chip(on the 4x4 you need a pigy back board on the ECU)
4x AGP601P plugs
If you want 350BHP you need the above plus 3" exhaust, this will run out of puff though at about 6200RPM
If you want it to pull 350BHP with power all the way to 7200RPM you need a hybrid t3/t04 turbo with 360 degree thrust bearing and running at 24PSI.
above 350BHP you need different injectors again and an RS500 intercooler plus diferent map.
and on and on, cossies kick ***.
who's the specialist selling the motor?
15 February 2000, 09:07 AM
#3
I think that it is so funny that even in this day and age, that you can still get so called "specialists" sprouting off bullsh*t horsepower claims.
Like John, I have been through virtually EVERY stage of Cosworth modification and although it is soooo easy to extract big BHP out of Cossies - its not THAT easy! However, prepare to weep, as the costs of the conversions will make you wish someone did the same for the Scoobies....
A standard Sapphire 4x4 comes with a quoted 227PS (about 224 BHP in "real" money) and has a HUGE front mounted intercooler (50% bigger than the 2wd item)(not one of these stupid top mounted "interheater" things on a Scooby!
). To achieve this it runs 10psi (just under 0.7 bar) with a limited overboost to 11psi (a matter of seconds). To get to the next level (280bhp on a 4x4 compared to 270bhp on a 2wd, due to the 4x4s better engine and intercooler), all you need to do is raise the boost to 15psi (a smidge over 1 bar) with a limited over boost to 17psi using a -31 actuator and a fully programmed chip. Now comes the sickening bit! Because this has been around so long now, people like Harvey (my engine builder) only charge £150 for the conversion fully set up - almoust 60bhp extra for 150 smackers!
The next stage is a little more complicated (as John says) and requires a good strong engine to do it on (especially a recent headgasket, as the pressures are about to get pretty high!). You need all the bits John mentioned and to run 21psi (just over 1.4 bar) to get the required 330bhp. This would all cost in the region of £600 from Harvey fully set up.
Then comes the hybrid turbo. This loses a fraction down the bottom end compared to the standard T3, but makes up for it at the top. Harvey uses a Grp A item rather than the total hybrid that John mentioned. This comprises of a 0.48 a/r housing and 60 trim compressor with 7° cut back blades, 360° thrust bearing as well as all the items listed by John for the previous conversion. Running a smidge over 28 psi (nearly 2 bar) will see 340 - 350 BHP (depending on engine, as they all vary slightly) and wait for it - 380 lb ft of torque! All this would only cost £1k plus £250 if the headgasket needed doing to cope with nearly triple the standard boost!
After that you really need to live map the engine (not cheap!) to go any further, as they vary so much that to extract any more would be just stabbing in the dark without knowing precisely what was going on inside the engine with each modification. Your're looking at an extra £1k on top of all your bits detailed above (to take the engine out of the car, live mao it and then put it back in). But using the hybrid turbo John described and live mapping (but all the other bits the same), my car achieved 385bhp and 403 lb ft of torque with a peak of 34psi (2.3 bar).
The next stage is even more expensive as it requires going internal (head, cams, lower comp. pistons, full size T35 turbo (0.63 a/r)) as well as even bigger injectors (400s). It is also wise to have the headed bolted down properly with long studs (which go all the way through the block and out the other side) with a tri-metallic head gasket. Live mapped this produced 419bhp and 401 lb ft on my car at a peak of 35 psi (peak power has moved 500 rpm higher due to the cams and head work though....).
Obviously after this things start to get really silly in terms of power and cost. But with an eight injector plenum and a T4 turbo, you're looking at 500+bhp (498 lb ft of torque!)with 37psi (but no power below 4000 - but an extended rev range to 8200) and a bill for £8 - 12K just for the engine (depending on what bits you have already got). At this point you have really got to start looking at an uprated gearbox and diff and at an additional £6k EACH for ones that will take the power, it's for people who really are committed (or should be!)
Hope this helps - sorry to prattle on, but you can tell I just luuurve the power you can get out of the Cossies! Will show you at Donno (providing it's not raining!).
LOL
Mike
Like John, I have been through virtually EVERY stage of Cosworth modification and although it is soooo easy to extract big BHP out of Cossies - its not THAT easy! However, prepare to weep, as the costs of the conversions will make you wish someone did the same for the Scoobies....
A standard Sapphire 4x4 comes with a quoted 227PS (about 224 BHP in "real" money) and has a HUGE front mounted intercooler (50% bigger than the 2wd item)(not one of these stupid top mounted "interheater" things on a Scooby!
). To achieve this it runs 10psi (just under 0.7 bar) with a limited overboost to 11psi (a matter of seconds). To get to the next level (280bhp on a 4x4 compared to 270bhp on a 2wd, due to the 4x4s better engine and intercooler), all you need to do is raise the boost to 15psi (a smidge over 1 bar) with a limited over boost to 17psi using a -31 actuator and a fully programmed chip. Now comes the sickening bit! Because this has been around so long now, people like Harvey (my engine builder) only charge £150 for the conversion fully set up - almoust 60bhp extra for 150 smackers!The next stage is a little more complicated (as John says) and requires a good strong engine to do it on (especially a recent headgasket, as the pressures are about to get pretty high!). You need all the bits John mentioned and to run 21psi (just over 1.4 bar) to get the required 330bhp. This would all cost in the region of £600 from Harvey fully set up.
Then comes the hybrid turbo. This loses a fraction down the bottom end compared to the standard T3, but makes up for it at the top. Harvey uses a Grp A item rather than the total hybrid that John mentioned. This comprises of a 0.48 a/r housing and 60 trim compressor with 7° cut back blades, 360° thrust bearing as well as all the items listed by John for the previous conversion. Running a smidge over 28 psi (nearly 2 bar) will see 340 - 350 BHP (depending on engine, as they all vary slightly) and wait for it - 380 lb ft of torque! All this would only cost £1k plus £250 if the headgasket needed doing to cope with nearly triple the standard boost!
After that you really need to live map the engine (not cheap!) to go any further, as they vary so much that to extract any more would be just stabbing in the dark without knowing precisely what was going on inside the engine with each modification. Your're looking at an extra £1k on top of all your bits detailed above (to take the engine out of the car, live mao it and then put it back in). But using the hybrid turbo John described and live mapping (but all the other bits the same), my car achieved 385bhp and 403 lb ft of torque with a peak of 34psi (2.3 bar).
The next stage is even more expensive as it requires going internal (head, cams, lower comp. pistons, full size T35 turbo (0.63 a/r)) as well as even bigger injectors (400s). It is also wise to have the headed bolted down properly with long studs (which go all the way through the block and out the other side) with a tri-metallic head gasket. Live mapped this produced 419bhp and 401 lb ft on my car at a peak of 35 psi (peak power has moved 500 rpm higher due to the cams and head work though....).
Obviously after this things start to get really silly in terms of power and cost. But with an eight injector plenum and a T4 turbo, you're looking at 500+bhp (498 lb ft of torque!)with 37psi (but no power below 4000 - but an extended rev range to 8200) and a bill for £8 - 12K just for the engine (depending on what bits you have already got). At this point you have really got to start looking at an uprated gearbox and diff and at an additional £6k EACH for ones that will take the power, it's for people who really are committed (or should be!)
Hope this helps - sorry to prattle on, but you can tell I just luuurve the power you can get out of the Cossies! Will show you at Donno (providing it's not raining!).
LOL
Mike
15 February 2000, 10:35 AM
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Call me naive, but I always thought it was easy to tune a Cossie!!! Thanks for clearing that up Mike!
I guess the assumption arised from the fact that the Cossie lump was a detuned 500bhp engine, while the Scooby has a detuned 280bhp engine!!!
Oh well, I guess I better stick with the Scooby, and not sell up for an Escort Cosworth!!
Andy
I guess the assumption arised from the fact that the Cossie lump was a detuned 500bhp engine, while the Scooby has a detuned 280bhp engine!!!
Oh well, I guess I better stick with the Scooby, and not sell up for an Escort Cosworth!!
Andy
15 February 2000, 10:59 AM
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37psi!!!!!!! Holy ****! I only run 7psi. Engine must be fit to burst with that much boost. Jesus... I feel inadequate now.
[This message has been edited by Beef (edited 15-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Beef (edited 15-02-2000).]
15 February 2000, 01:09 PM
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Mike -
I'm not sure you've got those details right. Surely it's a lot simpler to get that much power out of a cossie?
From reading Max Power, I have deduced that the only requirements for achieving 400bhp+ from a cossie are:
a) The attachment of a piece of drainpipe in place of the exhaust.
b) A rear wing that looks like it could double as the tail fin of a 747.
c) A garish paint scheme with lots of superfluous vents.
d) A baseball cap (worn backwards).
I'm not sure you've got those details right. Surely it's a lot simpler to get that much power out of a cossie?
From reading Max Power, I have deduced that the only requirements for achieving 400bhp+ from a cossie are:
a) The attachment of a piece of drainpipe in place of the exhaust.
b) A rear wing that looks like it could double as the tail fin of a 747.
c) A garish paint scheme with lots of superfluous vents.
d) A baseball cap (worn backwards).
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15 February 2000, 02:11 PM
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Mike,
do you write the storyboards for the tuning shop in Gran Turismo 2
See you on Sunday barring rubbish weather - you're closest so we'll be looking to you for a weather forecast on Saturday evening!
Rannoch
do you write the storyboards for the tuning shop in Gran Turismo 2
See you on Sunday barring rubbish weather - you're closest so we'll be looking to you for a weather forecast on Saturday evening!
Rannoch
15 February 2000, 03:54 PM
#12
it was designed to do high power from day one.
There was an awefull lot of money spent by ford to go win the touring car championship.
then all the top race shops spent hundreds of thousands perfecting big power and reliability.
special blocks were made etc etc.
dont forget 500BHP from 2 litres is nowt realy, the F1 engines of the day were pushing 1300BHP from 1.5 litre running 5 BAR boost.
boy did they grenade at times(like after 1 flying lap in qualifying)
sadly the scoob engine is made of liquorice compared to the cossie.
There was an awefull lot of money spent by ford to go win the touring car championship.
then all the top race shops spent hundreds of thousands perfecting big power and reliability.
special blocks were made etc etc.
dont forget 500BHP from 2 litres is nowt realy, the F1 engines of the day were pushing 1300BHP from 1.5 litre running 5 BAR boost.
boy did they grenade at times(like after 1 flying lap in qualifying)
sadly the scoob engine is made of liquorice compared to the cossie.
15 February 2000, 04:10 PM
#13
Oz & Beef,
If you add a big wing on the back this gives the car an additional 600bhp. The exhaust however, is only worth an extra 150bhp, but if you add a K&N 57i this increases to 200bhp. The addition of a puffa jacket makes the driver lighter and is therefore worth 5bhp...
Hope this clarifies....
John,
Hate to say this, but - told you so!
Rannoch,
I wish - I'd certainly like to put Dario in his place
I live 100miles away from the Pod, I don't think I am the best person to ask about the weather. Will check the forcast though....
Yunus,
Q: Why do you think you have to long stud the engine?
A: So that it lasts 20,000 miles between headgaskets instead of 8,000 miles!
LOL
Mike
If you add a big wing on the back this gives the car an additional 600bhp. The exhaust however, is only worth an extra 150bhp, but if you add a K&N 57i this increases to 200bhp. The addition of a puffa jacket makes the driver lighter and is therefore worth 5bhp...
Hope this clarifies....
John,
Hate to say this, but - told you so!
Rannoch,
I wish - I'd certainly like to put Dario in his place
I live 100miles away from the Pod, I don't think I am the best person to ask about the weather. Will check the forcast though....
Yunus,
Q: Why do you think you have to long stud the engine?
A: So that it lasts 20,000 miles between headgaskets instead of 8,000 miles!
LOL
Mike
15 February 2000, 05:21 PM
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Location: Nottingham with 620BHP & 530lb/ft @1.5bar boost on road fuel.
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Mark Shead, our tuner, has an RS500 that runs 37psi boost as well.
His engine produces 545bhp and 491lb/ft with a 7.3 :1 compression ratio and T4 turbo.
16,000 miles and 11 track days.
Oh and it is possibly for sale if anyone fancies it. It is well very well known car with M.A.Developments plastered all over it!!
Mark says it will be rebuilt again soon for anyone who wants it!
Laters
Ben
His engine produces 545bhp and 491lb/ft with a 7.3 :1 compression ratio and T4 turbo.
16,000 miles and 11 track days.
Oh and it is possibly for sale if anyone fancies it. It is well very well known car with M.A.Developments plastered all over it!!
Mark says it will be rebuilt again soon for anyone who wants it!
Laters
Ben
15 February 2000, 08:14 PM
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Thanks for the superbly informative posts guys (and the not so informative, but highly amusing ones!)
All things being well, I'll get to have a play in my friend of a friend's new Cossie at the weekend. It'll be interesting to see exactly what has been done to it. Based on the above information we should be able to make a rough estimate of the power.
Don't know the name of the supplying dealer, apparantly it's in the Chesterton area? Something like that I think.
Now where's the best place to fit the puffa jacket for the maximum performance increase?
Andrew
All things being well, I'll get to have a play in my friend of a friend's new Cossie at the weekend. It'll be interesting to see exactly what has been done to it. Based on the above information we should be able to make a rough estimate of the power.
Don't know the name of the supplying dealer, apparantly it's in the Chesterton area? Something like that I think.
Now where's the best place to fit the puffa jacket for the maximum performance increase?
Andrew
15 February 2000, 08:52 PM
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Hello all,
Just out of interest guys, does 400bhp really mean a lot on the road in real world driving. For example my Scoob is a '94 WRX. All mods are to the exterior (its got to look good 1st), suspension, clutch and brakes (no engine mods... yet!) However, I still manage to leave my mate for dead from the lights in his '92 300+bhp(approx) 300ZX. Also, comfortably managed to stalk an aquaintance in a suposedly 450bhp '93 RX-7 (I was 2 up, he was 3) from 90 - 140+ mph (on the clock). Won't say where that was achieved! So, is it more blagging than real action on the tarmac? Or is it really worth spending the money?
Kevin
Nottingham
Just out of interest guys, does 400bhp really mean a lot on the road in real world driving. For example my Scoob is a '94 WRX. All mods are to the exterior (its got to look good 1st), suspension, clutch and brakes (no engine mods... yet!) However, I still manage to leave my mate for dead from the lights in his '92 300+bhp(approx) 300ZX. Also, comfortably managed to stalk an aquaintance in a suposedly 450bhp '93 RX-7 (I was 2 up, he was 3) from 90 - 140+ mph (on the clock). Won't say where that was achieved! So, is it more blagging than real action on the tarmac? Or is it really worth spending the money?
Kevin
Nottingham
15 February 2000, 09:08 PM
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Chesterton as in Newcastle-under-Lyme / Stoke-on-Trent?
Don't Castle Performance hang out round there? I suppose I should know as I'm about ten miles down the road (but I'm not sure)!
Where do Turbo Systems hang out?
Chris.
[This message has been edited by ChrisB (edited 15-02-2000).]
Don't Castle Performance hang out round there? I suppose I should know as I'm about ten miles down the road (but I'm not sure)!
Where do Turbo Systems hang out?
Chris.
[This message has been edited by ChrisB (edited 15-02-2000).]
15 February 2000, 09:52 PM
#22
kevin, lets just say your mate in the rx7 was talking coblers.
I am not exagerating here, my old cossie 2WD would absolutely destroy any scooby on a public road or race track unless it is wet.
dont care what spec it was, world rally car included, a 2wd cossie with good suspension and 350BHP up would just leave you for dead, and as for the mith that it would struggle in the corners, nonsense, the cossie in 2wd format is a far more balanced chassis than a scooby and will outcorner it, unless its wet.
as for the companies round stoke/newcastle.
They are both within 2 miles of each other.
turbo systems is in parkhouse industrial estate, just of the A34. Castle Performance is near the town centre of newcastle on the A34.
and yes 350BHP on a 2wd cossie road car is very usable, i could have done with another 100BHP actualy, it felt a bit slow after a while to me.
I am not exagerating here, my old cossie 2WD would absolutely destroy any scooby on a public road or race track unless it is wet.
dont care what spec it was, world rally car included, a 2wd cossie with good suspension and 350BHP up would just leave you for dead, and as for the mith that it would struggle in the corners, nonsense, the cossie in 2wd format is a far more balanced chassis than a scooby and will outcorner it, unless its wet.
as for the companies round stoke/newcastle.
They are both within 2 miles of each other.
turbo systems is in parkhouse industrial estate, just of the A34. Castle Performance is near the town centre of newcastle on the A34.
and yes 350BHP on a 2wd cossie road car is very usable, i could have done with another 100BHP actualy, it felt a bit slow after a while to me.
15 February 2000, 10:28 PM
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I have to agree with John here, Ive driven a 350Bhp 2 wheel drive Sapphire and it was indeed the fastest ROAD car I've ever been in. The power delivery was phenominal and far more 'G' Force than my MY93.
When I bought my car I looked long and hard at a Cossie; they tend to be cheaper (older) and make more power as a rule but the image didnt suit, and anyway, find me a cossie that sounds as sweet as a scoob !!
(Im not a filthy turncoat BTW !!)
Richie.
When I bought my car I looked long and hard at a Cossie; they tend to be cheaper (older) and make more power as a rule but the image didnt suit, and anyway, find me a cossie that sounds as sweet as a scoob !!
(Im not a filthy turncoat BTW !!)
Richie.
16 February 2000, 04:06 AM
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Mike,
please clarify three things for me:
What gas do these cars run on when making 30+ psi. Not regular pump gas is it? If so how is detonation controlled?
You talk about putting in alrger injectors (400s). Is this 400cc/min? Just curious because my Evo I comes stock with 550cc/min injectors, and it makes only 250 ps.
Your power quotes are they flywheel HP, or wheel H.P.? Asking because people in the U.S. achieve 300+ wheel H.P. (low 300s) with the Mitsu Eclipse and without running such crazy boost level. More like 24 psi or so.
please clarify three things for me:
What gas do these cars run on when making 30+ psi. Not regular pump gas is it? If so how is detonation controlled?
You talk about putting in alrger injectors (400s). Is this 400cc/min? Just curious because my Evo I comes stock with 550cc/min injectors, and it makes only 250 ps.
Your power quotes are they flywheel HP, or wheel H.P.? Asking because people in the U.S. achieve 300+ wheel H.P. (low 300s) with the Mitsu Eclipse and without running such crazy boost level. More like 24 psi or so.
16 February 2000, 09:00 AM
#26
Dear Wreckleford,
Yes this is achieved using regular pump gas (97 RON). It uses water injection and a front mounted intercooler over 3ft square to keep the charge temperature at a constant 40°C. The water injection is fully mapped and does not come on until the boost exceeds 7psi AND the charge temperature exceeds 42°C. It then switches off if the boost goes below 7psi or the charge temperature goes below 38°C (WRC spec system). In addition, the engine has been live mapped. By this I mean the engine has been taken out of the car and put on a "bench" dyno and the fuelling and ignition have been adjusted "live" to get the best out of it. Everything has been taken to the absolute limit of detonation in 500 rpm increments and then slightly past it before backing it off (or increasing the fuel if enough leeway is available) to the point where it does not detonate. However, these injectors are flat out, totally wide open at these figures and any more would require changing them. The turbo, cams, headwork, compression ratio - everything is matched to the intended spec of the engine. The bottom end is fully balanced.
Obviously, you will now guess from the above that the figure is a flywheel figure, as the car is not "attached" until after the mapping is complete (this allows TOTAL replication of every situation over and over to get the ultimate results)....
I would also say that this figure is a true figure and not an "enhanced" rolling road figure. This dyno was the same dyno that was used by Ford to develop the latest 160PS Puma engine on (yes Ahmed and Harvey did that). They have just extracted 200bhp out of the 1.4 Puma engine for rallying hmologation purposes (bloody thing revs to over 10,000 rpm!).
The injectors are called 400s because this is what the part number begins with, it is not the flow rate. I will have to get back to you on that one, as I'm not sure off the top of my head what they are and will have to ask Ahmed....
Hope this has helped somewhat. However, having this work done to my car has made me into a total cynic, as there are so many cars with a claimed 400 - 500bhp out there that my car TOTALLY blows into the weeds. NEVER believe the hype of an engine unless it produces the goods on the road or track, as there are so many people willing to claim exagerated figures to make the cars appear better than they actually are. The amount of times I have been asked if my car is over 500bhp is unbelievable. They always seem so disappointed when I tell them it is "only" 419bhp - they are more used to "bull-sh*t" quotes which I am not prepared to perpetuate.
Incidentally, just so you know that the car does come up with the goods - it was timed at 172mph (@ just over 6500 rpm - still 700 rpm left) before running out of runway and did a standing quarter of 12.64s @ 115mph (when it only had 385bhp as detailed above). Since the increase I have not had the opportunity to test the top speed out (and I know it will be faster as the peak power has moved 500 rpm up the range, and with the 385 conversion I was pulling 500rpm past the peak, so if it pulls the same 500rpm past the new peak that will equate to 184mph....). With regard to the standing quarters, I have had pretty crappy weather, so have not beaten my old time, but I have achieved several 12.7s runs at nearly 120mph, so I know it will beat it (if I can get the traction down!) later this year when the weather improves....
Don't forget this is a rwd manual car with a full interior and road tyres (Dunlop Sport 9000s) with a kerb weight of 1206kg.
The 4wd cars (but identical otherwise) with a similar spec (slightly less power at 380bhp) are going through in 11.8s @ 115mph due to the superior traction off the line....
Best regards
Mike
Yes this is achieved using regular pump gas (97 RON). It uses water injection and a front mounted intercooler over 3ft square to keep the charge temperature at a constant 40°C. The water injection is fully mapped and does not come on until the boost exceeds 7psi AND the charge temperature exceeds 42°C. It then switches off if the boost goes below 7psi or the charge temperature goes below 38°C (WRC spec system). In addition, the engine has been live mapped. By this I mean the engine has been taken out of the car and put on a "bench" dyno and the fuelling and ignition have been adjusted "live" to get the best out of it. Everything has been taken to the absolute limit of detonation in 500 rpm increments and then slightly past it before backing it off (or increasing the fuel if enough leeway is available) to the point where it does not detonate. However, these injectors are flat out, totally wide open at these figures and any more would require changing them. The turbo, cams, headwork, compression ratio - everything is matched to the intended spec of the engine. The bottom end is fully balanced.
Obviously, you will now guess from the above that the figure is a flywheel figure, as the car is not "attached" until after the mapping is complete (this allows TOTAL replication of every situation over and over to get the ultimate results)....
I would also say that this figure is a true figure and not an "enhanced" rolling road figure. This dyno was the same dyno that was used by Ford to develop the latest 160PS Puma engine on (yes Ahmed and Harvey did that). They have just extracted 200bhp out of the 1.4 Puma engine for rallying hmologation purposes (bloody thing revs to over 10,000 rpm!).
The injectors are called 400s because this is what the part number begins with, it is not the flow rate. I will have to get back to you on that one, as I'm not sure off the top of my head what they are and will have to ask Ahmed....
Hope this has helped somewhat. However, having this work done to my car has made me into a total cynic, as there are so many cars with a claimed 400 - 500bhp out there that my car TOTALLY blows into the weeds. NEVER believe the hype of an engine unless it produces the goods on the road or track, as there are so many people willing to claim exagerated figures to make the cars appear better than they actually are. The amount of times I have been asked if my car is over 500bhp is unbelievable. They always seem so disappointed when I tell them it is "only" 419bhp - they are more used to "bull-sh*t" quotes which I am not prepared to perpetuate.
Incidentally, just so you know that the car does come up with the goods - it was timed at 172mph (@ just over 6500 rpm - still 700 rpm left) before running out of runway and did a standing quarter of 12.64s @ 115mph (when it only had 385bhp as detailed above). Since the increase I have not had the opportunity to test the top speed out (and I know it will be faster as the peak power has moved 500 rpm up the range, and with the 385 conversion I was pulling 500rpm past the peak, so if it pulls the same 500rpm past the new peak that will equate to 184mph....). With regard to the standing quarters, I have had pretty crappy weather, so have not beaten my old time, but I have achieved several 12.7s runs at nearly 120mph, so I know it will beat it (if I can get the traction down!) later this year when the weather improves....
Don't forget this is a rwd manual car with a full interior and road tyres (Dunlop Sport 9000s) with a kerb weight of 1206kg.
The 4wd cars (but identical otherwise) with a similar spec (slightly less power at 380bhp) are going through in 11.8s @ 115mph due to the superior traction off the line....
Best regards
Mike
16 February 2000, 10:35 AM
#27
Hi wreck,
I will explain for you how fuel injectors are sized and why there are different flow rates for an injector that looks the same from the outside.
Firstly, what does a fuel injector do?
It is an electrically controlled valve that allows the passage of fuel at a preset flow rate whilst the valve is in the open state, this open state is controlled by a square wave pulse from the ECU.
How does the ECU controll the flow and timing.
The start of the opening pulse is always the same in relation to crank possition. The length of time the pulse is possitive determines how long the injector is held open after the leading edge of the pulse. The longer the pulse, the more fuel flows.
The phase of all the injectors starting point in relation to the crank position may be altered on very sophisticated ECU's.
Why not have one fuel injector that does all power outputs?
A fuel injector does more than just pass fuel at a set rate, it also has to atomise the fuel into a fine mist so that it mixes with the air charge to give a perfectly mixed combustable charge. It is doing what the carberetor does in an old style engine.
Production engines main priority is good power with excellent emmisions, to get this you use a low flow rate injector with a very fine mist pattern.
Race and rally engines main priority is to produce big power with less regard to emmisions, to get this you use a high flow injector that because of the flow cannot create such a fine spray.
You say that your injectors flow 550cc. Quite frankly for an engine that is only producing 270BHP this is an apauling match of injector size to application, you would be much beter of with an injector that flows 320cc as the atomisation would be far better and therefore the engine in your application would drive much more cleanly.
Now why is your car fitted with these oversized injectors?
Quite simple realy, it is to cater for the group N rally rules to allow your car to be competitive in rallies.
I think that mikes injectors would flow in the region of 503cc, perfectly sized for a 4 cylinder 420BHP engine.
Now then, how can you get even more flow if you need more power?
There are only 2 ways of doing this if your injectors are running at 100% open.
one is to increase the fuel rail pressure from a nominal 3 BAR to 3.5 BAR, the other is to fit another set of injectors, hence the 8 injector RS500 plenum chamber.
Following on from this theory, if you go to an 8 injector plenum you get the best of both worlds. You run 8 smaller injectors for good atomisation yet the combined flow is higher than 4 high flow injectors.
This is why the modern 500BHP+ cossie lumps use 8 injectors that flow 382cc each, at low power/revs only 4 injectors are switched on, at high laod/revs all 8 are switched on.
This is why you need geniuoses like ahmed bahjoo and harvey gibbs to map these engines properly, it ain't easy but the results are breathtaking.
cheers
john
I will explain for you how fuel injectors are sized and why there are different flow rates for an injector that looks the same from the outside.
Firstly, what does a fuel injector do?
It is an electrically controlled valve that allows the passage of fuel at a preset flow rate whilst the valve is in the open state, this open state is controlled by a square wave pulse from the ECU.
How does the ECU controll the flow and timing.
The start of the opening pulse is always the same in relation to crank possition. The length of time the pulse is possitive determines how long the injector is held open after the leading edge of the pulse. The longer the pulse, the more fuel flows.
The phase of all the injectors starting point in relation to the crank position may be altered on very sophisticated ECU's.
Why not have one fuel injector that does all power outputs?
A fuel injector does more than just pass fuel at a set rate, it also has to atomise the fuel into a fine mist so that it mixes with the air charge to give a perfectly mixed combustable charge. It is doing what the carberetor does in an old style engine.
Production engines main priority is good power with excellent emmisions, to get this you use a low flow rate injector with a very fine mist pattern.
Race and rally engines main priority is to produce big power with less regard to emmisions, to get this you use a high flow injector that because of the flow cannot create such a fine spray.
You say that your injectors flow 550cc. Quite frankly for an engine that is only producing 270BHP this is an apauling match of injector size to application, you would be much beter of with an injector that flows 320cc as the atomisation would be far better and therefore the engine in your application would drive much more cleanly.
Now why is your car fitted with these oversized injectors?
Quite simple realy, it is to cater for the group N rally rules to allow your car to be competitive in rallies.
I think that mikes injectors would flow in the region of 503cc, perfectly sized for a 4 cylinder 420BHP engine.
Now then, how can you get even more flow if you need more power?
There are only 2 ways of doing this if your injectors are running at 100% open.
one is to increase the fuel rail pressure from a nominal 3 BAR to 3.5 BAR, the other is to fit another set of injectors, hence the 8 injector RS500 plenum chamber.
Following on from this theory, if you go to an 8 injector plenum you get the best of both worlds. You run 8 smaller injectors for good atomisation yet the combined flow is higher than 4 high flow injectors.
This is why the modern 500BHP+ cossie lumps use 8 injectors that flow 382cc each, at low power/revs only 4 injectors are switched on, at high laod/revs all 8 are switched on.
This is why you need geniuoses like ahmed bahjoo and harvey gibbs to map these engines properly, it ain't easy but the results are breathtaking.
cheers
john
16 February 2000, 01:00 PM
#28
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Richie & John,
Cheers for the responses. Guess I'm gonna have to redress the balance and then go Cossie hunting. I have slaughtered a G registered moonstone Saphire Cossie before. Not sure of his power output, (exhaust was huge and had a very audible dump valve) but he was three up and fat to boot. After I sort my geometry and fit a full Leda kit I'll look at engine upgrades if my bank balance will stretch that far!
Cheers fellas,
Kevin
Cheers for the responses. Guess I'm gonna have to redress the balance and then go Cossie hunting. I have slaughtered a G registered moonstone Saphire Cossie before.
Not sure of his power output, (exhaust was huge and had a very audible dump valve) but he was three up and fat to boot. After I sort my geometry and fit a full Leda kit I'll look at engine upgrades if my bank balance will stretch that far!Cheers fellas,
Kevin
16 February 2000, 01:09 PM
#29
i didnt have a dump valve on mine, you dont need it till you go to the big T04 RS500 turbo. You lose turbo pick up with one fitted, it just helps the turbo bearing last longer.
lots of boy racers fit em for the noise (to$$ers) , sory phillip
as for getting an impreza to blow away a decent cossy, its never gonna happen, the blocks to week for proper power, licourice anyone
lots of boy racers fit em for the noise (to$$ers) , sory phillip
as for getting an impreza to blow away a decent cossy, its never gonna happen, the blocks to week for proper power, licourice anyone
16 February 2000, 01:34 PM
#30
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Forgot to mention that my 700bhp beast was on a Memory Card - well in the world of PlayStation we can beat cossies (10sec quarters) on a car that never made it to the released version.
Dario
Dario