john banks

Interested in opinions here - not a flame war, considering a switch to the STi 8, wondering what could replace my MY00 if I decide to do so or things start dropping off it on a regular basis - not unlikely given how hard it is running.

The problem is performance from the STi. Clearly it weighs considerably more, but in its favour is the semi closed deck block, stronger internals and superb gearbox/clutch.

I think it would need about 400 BHP to be as accelerative as my heavily modded MY00. Clearly the handling would be better. I already have AP brakes.

I am wondering how reliable the STi 8 engine and transmission are likely to be at 400 BHP compared to a MY00 at 350 BHP.

Also is the turbo likely to be capable of this power? And I'll end up with FMIC, water injection anyway.

Would be nice if the STi 8 was so good out the box that with just an ECU, exhaust and water injection you could get high 300s BHP but I think I'm dreaming.

Might end up with a second hand M5, new M3 or an Evo then? I'm thinking more along the lines of an M3 as it would probably be at least as quick as a 400 BHP STi 8 and arguably rather more reliable?

Josh L

Quite apart from the fact that it's impossible to comment until someone other than a magazine has had a chance to drive one, there have been a few questions raise recently over M3 reliability.

mutant_matt

John,

Have you driven an STi 7?

Matt

MJW

STi7 + PPP = 300bhp iirc

john banks

Not driven - passengered in a decat Unichipped STi 7 running 20 PSI and thought it was a bit slow to be brutally honest. At Knockhill the STis were quick through the corners, but just had no power on the straights - pulled away from them like a standard MY99 with considerably less power than I am running now.

To give you an idea of my present MY00's performance, I measured 30-100 (from datalogs with estimated speedo correction) through the gears in 9 seconds dead. Edit - now 8 seconds if I run silly boost but I am too scared to run it at 1.5 bar

[Edited by john banks - 11/15/2002 11:03:14 PM]

roee

M3 had some problems with the engine, blowing up in many cases (damaged conrods/bearings etc). But it's not a real reliablity problem as it's not being discovered well into the ownership, but rather withing the few thousands miles. Those are well documented and there is a website listing several dozens of them. BMW is very well informed of the fault, so it might have been fixed already, and in any case BMW will replace your engine with a new one.

The M5 is mechanically reliable and proven, suffering mainly from minor electrical glitches (all of which are software related and are being fixed as updated versions evolve), premature clutch failures (with 50kg/m of torque at 3800, propelling 1900kgs, it's bound to happen. good shifting technique will grant you long and happy clutch life), and there were some reported VANOS problems, but those are quite rare. Otherwise, nothing too bad. 1999 models had problems, and there was an update in 2001 (different front, plus minor interior updates, mostly different steering wheel and navigation system), so if getting used, try getting a 2001 one.

The M5 is a total beast, will not handle as good as an M3 or an STI but will beat both of which around a track in the proper hands, and besides it's the best handling frigate out there. Will outhandle everything comparable, and of course the straight line performance is something most cars can only dream off (measured less than 5.0 to 60mph, quarter in around 13.2 if i'm not mistaken). It suffers from understeer at the limit, there are few suspension bits and pieces that will transform the handling into something even better (it can be solved cheaply using camber plates and 275 tires up front instead of 245). For track usage, brakes are a bit of a downside due to fading, (no wonder, try hauling 1.9 tonns to a stop from speed), lots of upgrade kits are availiable and some minor and cheap modifications will do wonders (regular pad/fluid stuff). Luxury is second to none, very comfortable, and there isn't anything like it which is a bonus.

Hope that helps... (moments of boredom..)

(And I'd have a used 911, assuming it's not too expensive to run in UK; But that's just because I love porkers, and those can be found for low prices around most of the world nowadays)

ProperCharlie

Difficult to know what a theoretical 400BHP STi 7/8 would be like, but given the power to weight that would achieve, i doubt that a standard M3 would compete.

charlie.

mutant_matt

John,

If you compare your car as it was standard to now, there is a rather large performance difference yes? If you gave this margin to the STi, it would also be pretty good huh? (not quite as fast in a straight line as your current car) but pretty good none the less?

Then on top of that, you've got the stiffer body, great diff, nicer interior, better seats/driving position, brakes (but you'd put the APs on I presume?). Personally in your position I'd probably buy the STi and do the do to it, but then I'm biased because as you know, I own an STi 7. The quality of the ride and handling on the twisties is what makes this car shine for me, the weight and straight line performance just don't tell the story when it comes to the amount of fun it is!!!!

BTW, are you going to reply to my mail from the other day?

Matt

T-uk

Matt's 100% correct,so the best idea is to come here on sunday and we will put your car back to standard,ready to be traded.I even have all the standard bits here that you need,some of them are on my car but they can soon be swapped .

hypoluxa

John,

Think of what you could do with 12k thrown at your already well modded MY00...

...and If you don't like the sound of that then buy the STi8

john banks

Thanks all. Some very good info roee. T-uk LOL! Matt, you can make all the excuses possible, but it would need 400 BHP to do it for me - I'm not going to something with a lower PWR. An STi with 300 BHP is similar straight line to a standard P1 and although it was my original target to get my car as quick as a P1 now even a modded P1 with the original turbo and TMIC feels a bit slow. I think without the AWD losses and turbo lag, the M3 would be well matched to a 400 BHP STi. If I wanted the ability to go around corners I would buy a Mini (honestly) or an Elise. Certainly although my car has similar power to an M3 and weighs considerably less, I am fairly evenly matched compared to the couple I have come across, same with (non turbo 911s). I suppose my midrange torque is considerably phatter, but the turbo lag makes up for that. I like straight line acceleration just as much as cornering, if not more so - otherwise I would have bought coilovers before FMIC Stopping is helpful and reassurring.

If I wanted to take the MY00 to 400 BHP it would cost the best part of £10k to do it properly - engine - probably a 2.5 would be sensible, turbo, 740s, gearbox. Plus the coilovers that T-uk is trying to talk me into However, after that it would go quite well and I would be happy for about 5 minutes. Maybe I need an R33. Where does it end? Hopefully not in a ditch or a conrod only useful as a BBQ skewer and a piston like a bucket with a hole in it

[Edited by john banks - 11/15/2002 6:34:04 PM]

mutant_matt

John,

It sounds to me like you want a bike I agree that most cars feel a little slow but it's a question of cost vs convenience. I'm willing to settle for a 300bhp STi 7 because I get my real kicks from a proper performace machine

If you don't want a bike then I can understand your conundrum I'm not sure what would fit your bill TBH but remember, you'd need to mod a Skyline more than the STi to get what you're looking for - the only advantage there is that they are easier (but not much cheaper) to get that kind of power out of......

Matt

john banks

I would probably end up in a ditch if I got a bike given the state and covering of leaves and crap on our roads. But yes, a bike would probably scare me plenty Maybe a mini and learn to ride and then a 125 CC

mutant_matt

LOL - next time you're in London I can show you what you're missing out on

Matt

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

......are you going to take him out on your bike as well



Sorry...... TAXI!

Dave T-S

Well i'm biased too, cos we have two STi7's between us but having had two MY00's and two MY01's I would say go for the STi. An easy 350bhp would be possible, and close to 400 is probably not impossible either. However, i'll stick my neck out and say if you must have 400 bhp you will achieve it easier and safer with an Evo7

Lastly, of course you know bhp is for people with small penises, you need to be chasing a nice big flat torque curve. Aim for 400ft/lb not 400bhp

mutant_matt

Well,

I drive around in a Suzuki Alto 770cc tripe tin box with about 40bhp - does that mean then?

Matt

P.S. Sorry if we're taking your topic off course John

john banks

This power thing being crap and torque being better is, well, crap IMHO. I'd rather have good torque AND power. If I wanted torque instead of power I would buy a diesel and be bored. I am a big believer in power and like to use the revs and the gearbox, and have no trouble keeping it on the boil. I actually prefer the reward for using the top end, and a car that goes ballistic from 5000 RPM up along with good torque from 3000 RPM really floats my boat, but I would trade 3000-5000 for more 5000-7000 RPM. Flat torque curve is what I like too - the STi torque curve is like a ski slope, that is why it doesn't produce much power in standard or PPP format. It is whether the STi could easily produce the power without major work. The Evo it seems could make a fairly easy 380 BHP and is lighter. Oh no, the dark side is looming

[Edited by john banks - 11/15/2002 8:02:05 PM]

russell hayward

Have to say, in a straight line , my PPP STI7 feels decidely slow against my E46 M3.

Whether it actually is or not, I don't really know or care. It just feels a lot quicker.

Paul_H

Well I did exactly that - I bought a diesel, and sold the Scoob. When it came to parting with the Scooby, I very nearly couldn't, it's the first time I've been sorry to see a car go.

Not that I'm going soft, you understand - but the howl of the bike at 13,500 rpm, and the ease of demolishing the queue of traffic, has meant that every single time that I have been for a blast this summer, I have chosen the bike, and the Scooby has sat in the garage. The bike takes much more skill to ride quickly, is much faster, and more rewarding.

The boost gauge, Dawes, and fuel cut lifter from the Scooby are going onto the TDI too......

Dave T-S

John
Of course, 400/400 is best

The PPP is mapped safe solely so it comes out of the other end of the 3yr/60k warranty without going kaboom, but has loads of top end - 5000 to 7500 rpm in 4th and 5th is pretty impressive.

A more hairy map could easily build on this.....but the dark side would be easier No doubt I will be flamed for suggesting this - not that I give a rats ****

john banks

I think you are right Dave.

Devil's Refugee

I knew you just wouldn't be happy with your lot John !


If it were up to me, I think an Evo would be your best bet.
It's a little more raw than the Scoob, however for very little money you can achieve the power and torque what you have spent a fortune on the Scoob I reckon.

M5 would be fabulous if you can find an unmolested one !

john banks

"Development costs" Theo

Adam M

not so sure about this one.

weight is not just a straightline disadvantage, it is a cornering disadvantage too.

Saying that I dont think the plus factors you quote are that beneficial when it comes to modding the my00 instead.

A fully closed deck block costs bugger all, a big turbo, again, not much.

Mark can sort you out with rods and pistons for not much, and then for 5/6k you have 400bhp and 400lbft of torque from a my00, assuming you get someone to map it for you and preferably on a bench. You will of course need a big turbo too .

you ask whether 400 from and sti8 will be more reliable?

I think not.

The standard internals ar not going to be that much better, and the block design has hardly changed.

in essence you are still talking of 200bhp/litre instead of 175 from the my00 unless you do what i stated above.

In essence, cos of the new factor and the increased value, i would be inclined not to ruin an sti 8 with modding and cripple its value, but the lower value of the my00 doesnt matter o much.

There is also the fact that we know the classic a little better, and so you can profit from more experienced gained from the older engine rather tthan riking bing a pioneer which is always expensive.

john banks

I am only running the MY00 at 1.3 bar now, so maybe it has a dog's chance of actually racking up some miles. Maybe I'll just see what drops off it. I am not too keen to go internal as it will end up spending more time off the road than on it from other's experiences, and sounds like it is still rather pioneering, and at present possibly not more reliable than knowing where to stop on a standard engine?

T-uk

john,

as you know I have always said a move to the dark side would make getting the big power cheaper but recently I have been having second thoughts.

if you are wanting big power for rolling road days,get the evo but what I have decided now is that you can keep up with higher horse power evo's with a lower power scoob.

Sam E's old scoob used to draw 6 car lengths on every straight at k/hill on me,not surprising as he had 320-330bhp.his evo with similar power to this will only pull 1car length coming out the hair-pin and then the gap does not change.this was before he changed the clutch,he may have had trouble selecting gear but it was not obvious as I did not suddenly catch up and he did not suddenly pull away after the change.I have found this with other evo's too not just sams on track.imo I would say at a rough guess the evo will always need 50hp more than the classic scoob.there is no doubt though that a standard suspension evo is better handling than a standard scoob on track.again using sam he is much faster through the bends with the evo than he ever was with the scoob.

this brings me to the second reason my mind has changed and that is if and when you kill your box or even your engine,sourcing a 2nd hand one will be much easier than for an evo.

I think it was the rc development advert which gives you a price per power for both.iirc the evo was cheaper up to 400bhp,to break 400 with both was a **** load,this is the figure that I think you would be looking at to get the straight line performance of the evo,compared to your scoob.

Hoppy

John, I have asked myself the same questions and I've ended up opting out of my company motor and buying my UK00 for £10k You can't beat that in terms of £s for power.

I dare say next year I will call Mark and throw a few grand at the motor for 400bhp - no point in messing about for 10bhp here and there when you're already over 300. Half the fun of owning a Scoob is the modding.

It will have to be a very special STi8/Evo/Beemer/911 that will live with a 400bhp classic Scoob. And it will have cost me maybe £16k total. No brainer if you ask me. And it's still a Scoob (you traitor ).

In other words, agree with Adam

Richard.

PS Ledas go on next Thurs I think the problem with my Prodrive stuts is... they're just shagged

Edited to add, I can't afford to have £30-40k sitting on the drive, and there's no way I would feel comfortable punting that kind of money round on a track day.

[Edited by Hoppy - 11/16/2002 12:52:52 PM]

john banks

I change my mind like the wind, but doing some AP22 logging today showed 280 BHP at the wheels at 1.3 bar which correlates exceptionally well with Star's (relatively pessimistic) rollers on a few cars now. Given this, it seems that things will probably last quite well at 1.3 bar and it will make the power I want without getting expensive (internal). A 440 BHP Evo 7 running 1.8 bar today did not feel spectacularly different, maybe 10% more accelerative, but then when they weigh about 10% more and when you consider what it costs to achieve, I might just stick to the Scooby and get some coilovers and leave the power alone. Next week I'll be saying something different again no doubt

EvilBevel

John, have you driven the M3 yet ?

It's a totally different animal from a Scoob. The power is instantly there, loads of low down torque, and you go "wahey!" when touching the throttle. Brilliant feeling.

Then higher up the rev range you expect it to open up even more and... nothing much happens

They are fast, and I admire them, but I wouldn't dream on buying one to start modding it (my guess is that it is pretty much near it's full potential anyway).

I agree that a big part of the fun is in the modding, but it stops when your car is off the road 8 months a year.

Maybe think about an Exige or something similar ?