Geezer

Has anyone seen todays issue of the Sun? There was a tragic accident on the Cheviot Rally where a car left the course and collided with some spectators, killing an eleven year old boy. Whilst this is obviously a tragic accident for all concerned, the press as usual sensationalise it to the nth degree.

As anyone who regularly attends race meetings or rallies will know, signs everywhere state that motorsport is dangerous. There is an inherent risk in standing at the side of a muddy road where cars are being driven at the limit.

AFter all the campaigns recently about speeding and squeezing the motorist, we can now expect all the bleeding liberals in the country to start bleating on about how speed kills etc, and then "Two Jags" to enforce even more draconian measures on motorists.

The beginning of end boys (and girl, Penni) ?

Maxwell Straker

Do you think no-one is listening to you?????

Firstly let me repeat Geezers regret at the accident, espcially for the families of those involved and also for the feelings of the driver who will probably never get over it,unfortunately these are the perils of motor sport

Anyway, the experience of the driver is really neither here nor there. One doesn't need too longer memory to remember Joachim Santos crashing into the crowd on the Portugese rally in his RS200 thus forcing the demise of Group B rallying. I doubt very much that there will be such a reaction this time as it is difficult to imagine performance limitations being enforced to reduce the output of a Vauxhall Nova!!!

AlexM

I think we may see a spate of spectator fatalities in WRC rallying in the near future due the size of the crowds that get drawn to some of the stage events nowadays.

Combine this with a failure to appreciate the risk, a slight misjudgement from a driver, and the consequences could be catastrophic. Most stages are well marshalled at the majority of events, but they can't control huge crowds who are intent on getting as close as possible to their heroes - some of the in-car footage I've seen makes my blood run cold!.

Rgds,

Alex

IWatkins

Have to agree.

Seeing that people were walking down the middle of the track on Radnor this (last year) with cars coming at them I wouldn't be suprised.

They seemed to expect to hear them coming, which you don't until they are on you. (Except the Scoda, which you could hear from about 10 miles with anti-lag).

Especially when fireworks are going off and you are wearing a rustley (sp?) jacket and a hat.

Maddness.

Cheers

Ian Watkins (GT4)

Josh L

This was a truly bizare and tragic accident, and I'm sure everyone's thoughts are with the victims families.

Having said that, I can't this carries any serious longterm implications on watching motorsport. Colin Wilson of the RACMSA even said that the victims were placed exactly where they should have been. After all, if you look at the history of motorsport, and take it safety to the nth degree, is there actually anywhere safe to view it other than the TV?

Josh

Mike Rainbird

My condolences also goes to the families of the dead / injured. However, don't forget the driver, as I don't think he expected to be in a situation that would lead to the death of someone not participating in the rally. I doubt he will ever race again (just imagine if it was you driving, how it would effect you). Knowing that it wasn't his fault will probably not help him come to terms with it....

However, it really makes my blood boil when journalists have to sensationalise EVERYTHING. An XR3i becomes a "high powered sports car" etc. etc. Why can't hey just tell it how it is, I would respect them (and believe them) more if they just gave a factual account (afterall, isn't that supposed to be what journalism is about!?).
Yours seething
Mike

SDB

It is true that the most dangerous job on a rally is Spectator.

As with everybody else who hears of this, I am so sorry for the family of the 11 year old. What a dreadful thing to happen.

Rallying is on the whole an extremely safe sport, by Motorsport standards. With the failry recent popularity of road going rally cars like the Scoob, Evo, etc, interest in rallying is growing all the time and more and more people will go to watch as a result.

I don't know about this incident apart from what is on here, but if the people involved were indeed standing in the correct spot, this was indeed a freak accident.

The problem arrises with spectators in the road and spreading out as you get near them. The rallies I have entered have been far smaller than the average international event, but even at this level I have been stunned by some of the spectators in the road and hanging off banks and trees.

They seem to think you are some kind of robot which will automatically follow the road perfectly every time, but at times I have had to completely change my line through bends due to one stupid spectator standing just after the apex on the outside or even just before. If you are going to be the fastest through the stage, you need to use ever drop of power you have, ever bit of grip and every inch of road, otherwise, you're not going as fast as you could. This also means that, one slight error could take you off the road.

The trick is standin where the errors aren;t likely to happen.

I don't think any of this applies to the topic of this actual thread, but if marshalls and organisers don't take this very seriously and improve the guidelines for spectator control, there will indeed be some horrible accidents. Everyone is there at there own risk (if you ever go to a rally, you will read this many many times during the day) but we should look at keeping the stupid ones under control.

Cheers

Simon

BladeRnnr

condolences to all involved

but WHERE THE BLOODY HELL WERE THE MARSHALLS AND COMMON SENSE!
it is like standing 6 yards away from someone holding a sawn off shot gun, you have a chance that the shot might not have begun to spread but then again........


once again condolences to all
(no flaming please as i'm a bit put out at the mo myself)

Carl Harvey

First I would like to reiterate everyones sentiments.

As an avid rally fan I am slightly concerned at the current standards of marshalling.

Only last week I took my 5 year old son to 4 stages of the Wyedean rally.

I only saw 2 marshalls.

A lot of people attending these events only visit 1 event per year. If they are not effectively marshalled you can see how they become complacent.

I am not trying to place any blame, only sharing my experience.

MarkF

I was deeply saddened to hear of this accident. While we all get great satisfaction from being able to drive quickly in the appropriate places, accidents do, unfortunately, happen. From what I have seen on tv, it looks as though the car came over a crest, the driver lost control and hit a pile of stone on the side of the road. I am not blaming anyone for this accident. This is based on what I have seen. In all fairness to the driver, at the speeds reached in competition if you lose control its very hard (and lucky) to regain it. Otterburn, for those who don't know it is a difficult area for rallying. Lots of crests and dips and most on high open moorland. This makes it prone to changing weather conditions and very often there is ice.
Let's hope that lessons are learned and the press do not do there usual trick of blowing this terrible tragedy out of all proportions.

johnfelstead

my condolences also to all involved in this tragedy.

It makes my blood boil however when i read people slagging off marshals on rally events.

This is the simple truth about marshalling on any rally in the world.

All marshals are unpaid volunteers who rely on the cooperation of the spectators during the rally.

The rescue crews, doctors, recovery crews, radio crews and timing officials do these tasks unpaid, they even pay for the equipment out of there own pocket.

There will never be enough marshals around to totally controll spectators on events, even if all the spectators did as they were told.

The SIDC is an RACMSA affiliated club, i dont recall ever seeing any posts requesting us to go marshall on an event as a club.

The marshalls are people like you and me, whats stopping you getting involved rather than sitting on youre **** complaining?

I have been actively involved in rallying in the UK since 1984 and have nothing but praise for these people, i have joined there ranks on occasion when i have not been part of a competing crew.

Go and get involved, they need you.

BladeRnnr

well said JfS.
Being an operational firefighter i would gladly go and offer my services if requested,

the trouble is nobody bothers to request help.

Carl Harvey

John

I agree with everything you say about marshalls, and have helped out numerous times.

More people should do so.

However, If you park in the only advertised car park for a stage and follow the only route possible to the stage, you would hope this section of stage is supervised.

I must say again how much this tradgedy does sadden me.

SDB

John

You are dead right about the fact that people should not condem marshalls. It is not their fault.. BUT...

As I said, if this is not taken seriously, the fact that there are not enough marshalls will only serve as another reason to ban or control to the point of strangulation one of the best forms of motorsport around (IMHO).

We do need marshalls, and I've done it before, also, I think most people involved have, but if rules come in saying we need twice the amount of marshalls or the event can't go ahead, many events will not go ahead. I don't know what the solution is but it needs a bit of thinking about before it's too late.

Maxwell Straker

I think the point is being missed here somewhat. The spectators in question were stood where they should have been and where they were instructed to stand. The accident was a freak and could have happened to even the most cautious of spectators. Unfortunately these facts are not reported by the press in a fair and unbiased manner, they just wish to sensationalize events to sell their papers. They have a job to do like the rest of us but unfortunately they seldom think about the consequences of their comments before making them.

Hopefully (!!!) a plane will crash or a government minister will be caught having sex with a goat and they can report on something else instead and rallying will rightly remain unaltered.

Geezer

The story is covered again in the Sun today. Although it is less damning than yesterday, stating how dangerous a place Otterburn is, and how the father of the boy (who, incidentally, was competing in the event and went through about 4 cars earler) sympathised with the driver and did not hold him responsible, it still harps on about the driver being a novice, and spinning out of control, like he had never driven before.

Like Maxwell stated yesterday, experience isn't necessarily any help in motorsport, as Joachim Santos or Alex Fiorio (remember him?!?!) will tell you.

As for the marshalls, they really are blameless here. They were in attendance, they directed the spectators to what is generally accepted as a safe viewing area. It's a sh1tty job marshalling, noone listens to what you say, and if the crowd becomes unruly and they have the stage cancelled, they are slagged off, but if someone is hurt due to 'bad marshalling', they are slagged of anyway!!!

Paul Frank

All,

Well as a keen rally fan for over 25 years I concur with sentiments here about the tragedy.

I still believe that actually the safety record of UK rallying compares very favourably with other forms of UK motorsport. The accident sounds like a fluke. Very sad. Mind you when I took my 5 year old daughter to her first rally she was made to stand with me behind a tree ('cos in a car / tree contest the tree <I>always</I> wins).

Anyway I have only one issue: <B>marshalling</B>

Yes, before you ask I've done it (admittedly on much larger rallies than the one in question).
Unfortunately I have to say that IMHO our previously high standards are deteriorating.

Examples:
1) Generally 95% of the people who stand in very dangerous places nowadays (unlike Group B days) are the marshalls. Sorry but it's true. They seem to think that a large Day-Glo vest will magically protect them - hmm, I don't think it will somehow chaps!

2) Even a busy corner does not need 15/20 marshalls like we see on the RAC (oops, sorry Rally of Wales). Why are they all in one spot? How about spreading out down the stage? More likely that 75% them are 'hangers-on' / 'mates' - so you don't believe me? Try asking one a question - you'll soon see how well briefed & knowledgeable they are.

3) Only on 2 occasions has there been marshall / spectator trouble that I have <B><I>personally</B></I> witnessed. BOTH times cause by a "job's worth" marshall. These muppets are easily identified they usually have a large belt with tools / hammers /large knives on it (what's that all about then?). On one occasion the stage was stopped for a while. Funnily enough no problems on the bends before / after (where we moved to). Same bunch of spectators, so? Little Hitler in a vest.

Marshalling needs to learn from circuit racing here.

all IMHO
Paul
PS still going to the Kall Kwik on Sunday though!



[This message has been edited by Paul Frank (edited 15-02-2000).]

Philip Thurlow

here here Paul - I'm still of too - as you know
I have been going to rallies for over 25 years now (I'm 21 if no one knows hehehehe)
I have never seen any accidents that have involved in a spectator been hurt apart from mysef !! this is why I no longer supposrt Penti Orikula or however you spell his name - he doesnt do much good these days (ever since he lost my support) There is a vast cross section of different marshalls - some stand right on the outside of the corner - 2 metres of the edge of the track - some dont bother to whistle - some blow too much ! I will never forget seeing one marshall throw his wistle on the ground and march off after been jeered off by all the surrounding supports (the words dummy and spit come to mind) When I was young one lifted me up and I got a piggy back cos I couldnt see over those big guys - so take that into consideration when watching - cos behind you might be the next Mr. McRae ! hope to see the Scoobie Possie out on Sunday then - eh Paul ? - I'll mail you soon

Paul Wilson

Marshalling is a thankless task, I've spent 48 hrs in a welsh forest in the past for an RAC. Nearest amenenties/hot tea were eeerrrr nowhere. The sum total I have gotten from marshalling 4 RAC's and numerous local 12 cars is a Network Q badge that has started to go rusty.

Mind you it is always amusing when a speccy asks you "who's leading" or similar questions, as if I have any idea! I'm stuck in a forest its raining my radio is in the car which doesn't work anyway because we are in the hills.

Anyway enough of my rant, my sympathies to the family concerned, and I hope the other kid pulls through.

johnfelstead

i think the below extract says it all

Father speaks of rally tragedy - 15-Feb-2000

An 11-year-old motor racing fan, killed following a collision with a
rally car, had cheered his father on in the same event only
moments earlier, according to press reports.

Marc Taylor had waved as he saw father Neil drive past the fast
bend on the Apex Cheviot Motor Rally near Otterburn,
Northumberland.

But just five cars later, a Vauxhall Nova, driven by novice Alyn
Stockton spun out of control before colliding with the group of
spectators.

Marc's eight-year-old cousin Christopher Hymers suffered serious
head injuries.

Christopher's father Ian and the boys' grandad Ian Snr and two
other fans were hurt in Sunday's tragedy.

Marc's father, Neil Taylor told The Sun newspaper: "He absolutely
loved the sport. He came to watch me whenever I competed and
was really excited about this event.

"When I got to the second stage of the rally they told me there
had been a bad accident.

"When it was confirmed that it was my family involved and that
Marc was dead I went numb.

"I can't get my head around the shock. The race was as safe as it
could have been and I have sympathy for the other driver. The
organisers and emergency services were brilliant."

Dave Bullock

I marshalled the RAC rally back in the good old days of Group B. Both years mine, and three other marshals jobs were to 'Secure' a very narrow bridge on the stage. On more than one occasion some plonker barged past while telling us to F*?k off and ended up being on the bridge with a VERY fast car hurtling towards them. The second year there was a close call with one of these plonkers where the car just missed him but hit the bridge and caused quite alot of damage.
That was and will be the last time that I ever marshal an event.

Paul Frank

All

having thought about all this driving home last night a coupla thoughts:

1) the problems with stoopid spectators (Group B days) have thankfully almost gone
2) we run less 'international' standard rallies nowadays so I belive that opportunities for marshalls to learn their craft are much less
3) I honestly believe that a blast on the whistle as the first car approaches is an effective method of communication!
4) how about FIA putting some money in to a training scheme (a silly suggestion I know)

Paul: I hope you didn't misinterpret my post about asking marshalls questions.
I was thinking of the time I asked one "which way round are the cars running mate?" (dark/foggy - couldn't see any arrows) "dunno mate, I'm just here with m'brother". That's the sort that worries me, not good marshalls.

Paul
roll on Sunday