ex-webby

Hi All

It is becoming more aparent that there is a core of people (plus just a slightly larger minority of people) on scoobynet that seem to think it is normal and ok (maybe fun?) to trample all over people.

People wanting genuine help / advise, the recent thread about IM price cuts, questions about technical issues, people just needing genuine support, etc, etc. These threads are usually met with some thoughtful / helpful replies, but then regularly turn in to something nasty as someone posts something truly negative / unhelpful / takes the mickey / etc.

There is definitely a more negative attitude on scoobynet than there used to be.

I remember (this is not a big "good old days" speech) when you could come on scoobynet and post something that you needed support on, and people would rally round to help, offer support / guidence, etc. I personally think this was better.

It seems to me that there is a minority that happens to be shouting above the noise at present who seem to enjoy putting a downer / attacking people about their views / what is important.

I took scoobynet on because it was a place that supported a great community. It has always been fine to dissagree with someone, but I have started to see too many threads where people are agressively flamed for having a view-point that is different to the flamer. I can't help feeling this is completely the oposite of what I thought of the scoobynet community.

2 questions...

1) Do you agree / Is this something you want to see changed?
2) How do we do it? (I have some ideas, but would prefer to hear yours)

If I am confused / don't understand something, I am completely ready to hear about it.. but I REALLY just want to make scoobynet a better place, and I will do anything in my power to make that happen.

All the best

Simon

PS. In this particular thread.. any flame wars / posts which do not actually help this particular discussion will be deleted. To make this absolutely clear posts like "Oh come on.. you're talking out of your @rse" offer no input in to this discussion and will be deleted. Posts like "I think you've misread the situation. These people are only having a laugh, so I don't see it as a problem." DOES add to the discussion and can stay.

krankyd

>> PS. In this particular thread.. any flame wars / posts which do not actually help this particular discussion will be deleted.

I think that this sums up the feeling at the moment. There seems to be little regard for 'serious' threads, or respect for the content, and they tend to get way out of hand, very quickly.

I thought that the 'report this thread to a moderator' was suppost to aleviate this?

[Edited by krankyd - 10/16/2002 2:46:41 PM]

Neil Smalley

There is definatly a lot of truth in what you say.
Saying crack down on it is one thing, doing so without ruining peoples freedom of expression and speech is another.

Its a very fine line between being negative in a bad way, and disagreeing. If we take policing it too far, then scoobynet becomes a bunch of sycophants which does nobody any good.

The RTM function could be expanded to include people reporting non constructive posts, but then who determines non constructive?

If People feel the need to moan. Maybe we should create a Whingers forum where people can moan and whinge all they like? Even better, create a dross forum(called dev>null?) where all the moans and cack can be sent. Muppets is not the place for it anymore, even muppets have standards

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 10/16/2002 2:49:23 PM]

krankyd

What about a flame forum?

I'll nominate myself to moderate if you like

>>The RTM function could be expanded to include people reporting non constructive posts, but then who determines non constructive?

IMHO, If there is not a place for these threads you will see them in the BBS in other sections. Since SN is large, you will get differing opinions. It just depends wether you want them to be discussed in a 'general / non general' forum, or to have somewhere specific for people to shout..




[Edited by krankyd - 10/16/2002 2:52:41 PM]

Andy McCord

Simon, this problem goes back all the way to kid playgrounds, you will always get someone wanting to ridicule others, personally there is nothing wrong with a good debate between people with similar interests, whether they agree with each other or not, that is the beauty off debate, how else do you learn??, but people who hijack these debates with a bombardment off useless abuse in my mind need addressing. Maybe the way to go is something like the american 3 strikes rule, three attempts in a set period of time with what would be deemed to be abusive Bollox should be ejected from this site. Now enforcing it would obviously difficult & very subjective, its a shame its come to this,but you are right to draw a line in the sand.

Good luck
Andy

medders

Everyone knows who the wind up merchants are. Fine line between banter / abuse.

Abusers should have there posts deleted and should be kicked off in my opinion. Abuse being a post with no content other than insulting words.

Bit more moderating I think (sorry mods) Going to be difficult to police though.

MarkO

The example given is the £3k price drop thread, and okay, people were a bit quick to jump in and put the other side of the argument. Having said that, it's a discussion forum. If Russ really wants people to contact him to form a 'pressure group' why not ask them to email him, off-BBS?

There are a lot of people who pile in with all sorts of claims (witness the "name and shame" threads) which are totally over the top and uncalled for. Two people have a discussion on a public forum about something which at best should be discussed in an email, and probably should be sorted over the phone. But instead they post it on a public forum, slating the other person in front of 18,000 people, giving just their side of the story, and then wonder why it becomes a flame war.

The fact is that Scoobynet is supposed to be (IMO) a place where people can light-heartedly discuss stuff related (or not, depending on the forum) to do with Imprezas. One of the best things about the BBS is the fantastic sense of humour that most people exhibit - but unfortunately a good many people appear to be unable to laugh at themselves, or with everyone else.

I personally think that nothing needs to be changed with the format of the board. I also think that a lot of people on here need to stop taking themselves so seriously and actually consider what they write before they write it - particularly in the General and non-scooby forums. But most of all, people should consider the audience they're posting to.

ProperCharlie

Whislt I agree with the mighty webmaster to a certain extent, i also think that if you come on with a post that seems a bit ridiculous, then you leave yourself open to a certain amount of ridicule. I think most people would have looked at the responses to the first threads about IM price cuts and maybe formed the opinion that many people regarded this topic as crying over spilt milk. I for one would have not taken this as a positive starter for starting a *price cuts support group* thread. Where a topic is worthy of being taken seriously, it usually is. Just MHO, of course. We all like to have a bit of a laugh, surely?

Charlie

jjones

it happens on forums all over the internet.

you can't stop it.

learn to live with it or pull the site.

until people stop rising to the obviously dangled bait then it will continue.



e.g.

sdb - you are a nonce


now are you going to:
Ignore it

Enter a flame war

Suspend my account


?

ex-webby

OK.. the important thing here is not to take people's freedom of expression away.. it merely to encourage having respect for each other.

If you take a look at http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadid=141440 this is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

It does nobody any favours. It is not stopping people saying what they want (although I *did* ask for that thread to only contain posts from people that want to support it - but that's purely because of the specialist nature of the thread) it's merely stopping people being completely unhelpful and anti-supportive.

This is not people stating that they don't agree.. it is agressively attacking someone that has a different viewpoint to them.

All the best

Simon

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

It seems that this thread is directed at me because I was the first to negatively respond to Ru$$s thread, but like Mark says there are 2 sides to every story and everyone has and is entitled to his/her own opinion, I jut posted mine, ok maybe it was in th ewrong thread but it would have looked abit stupid if I had posted it somewhere else.

I am sorry Ru$$ I will delete my post if it will make everyone happy and bring the community back into perfect harmony.

Neil Smalley

I was'nt thinking of you Wurzel. Just in general.

MATTeL

Simon et al,

In the year and a bit I have been posting I have seen, felt and experianced the posting style change.

The increase of negative and non-constructive posts have increased and do detract from what is an invaluable resource for Subaru owners, no matter the model.

As to ways of stopping this sort of behaviour, using the RTM option and stronger moderator action might be the answer. Although I understand there will be resistance to editing and deleting, along with the usual cries about freedom of speech.

It would of course mean an increased workload for the moderators, who have to already balance work, life and their Scoobynet responsibilities enough as it is.

Locking accounts would only mean that the perpatrator could register again under a new name and then start all over again.

To be honest I am unsure of a way of preventing those that have little respect for other people's view or sensibilities from continuing to do what they do.

Not much use I admit but at least you know you aren't alone in your perceptions about the current posting trend.

Mark

MarkO

AKA "a lively debate". If I disagree vociforously with somebody in a discussion, I'm not going to state my opinion with a load of kisses after it, am I?

NotoriousREV

Who decides what is blatant abuse and what is mickey taking? I like to be able to voice my opinions in whatever way I feel is appropriate, I try and be polite, but if I beleive someone is an idiot I'll tell them so.

Of course, I expect and encourage others to behave the same.

MarkO

You're an idiot. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

MATTeL

MarkO - Lively deabtes can be carried out without the use of name calling or swearing (not saying that you have ever done this either).

I have been caught out when people have tag-teamed me in posting and both are attacking for no apparent reason, it isn't much fun. I am guilty of not walking away but then why should I be forced off a board that I value by the minority?

STi go fast

this is a discusion forum, its like standing up at the office and saying "im gonna talk about X, who wants to join in..."
you cant expect to that in an "office" of this size without people from both sides of your viewpoint diving in.

the £3k price cut thing is a good example, how can you expect to stand up in front of everyone and start going on about such an emotive subject without realising that not everyone will agree.

either put up with it or start a more strictly controled membership.

at the moment there is no control, you cant even ban someone without them poping up 5 secs later as someone else. if your office is open to the public dont mona when the idiots wander in.

T

Luke

Must admit I've poked my nose into a few posts... But I hope never to offend. At times the "For sale " secton can get messy. I find some folk thick. If your going to sell something give details and help the sell.There is a great awareness of what things are worth here on S/N. I have used it to my benefit buying and selling.Also Trust is an issue that has been mentioned a lot. How good is your word??????
Scoobynet is fantastic fun.It helps every member. If there "realy" is a problem we should all help.

Tiggs

nice spelling go fast!

just to add...if you want no feedback on your comments just ask people to email you (which is what i would do if i was selling something on here cause of all the neg posts that pop up in For Sale- annoying but to be expected)

MarkO

I totally agree - and you'll notice that (as far as I'm aware) I very rarely swear and don't ever name-call. Frankly, I prefer to use a little wit (if possible) and some reasoned debate.

However, when the moderator and co-webmaster of the BBS reverts to calling people '*** head' in his first contribution to a thread, I would suggest that the moderators ought to get their own house in order before complaining about that of anyone else.

Shark

I must admit that I did post in the wrong place. I didn't read the thread before commenting and have now done so and edited my post.

I for one, will from now on read the whole thread before posting. Could that be part of the problem Simon?

David

[Edited by Shark - 10/16/2002 3:15:11 PM]

MATTeL

MarkO - I have yet to see a post of yours when you have actually sworn at someone. Lively debates are more fun if wit and word play is used, it makes you think more!

I put the comment in brackets to make the point that I haven't seen you do this to other users of Scoobynet.

ex-webby

Sense of humour is completely fine. The examples in that thread are not people being humorous.

There is a time and a place for everything. It is wrong IM(HUMBLE!)O for you to assume that someone else is in the same mood as you and is only posting for a bit of a laugh. If you were in a board meeting, you wouldn't say "you bell end!", you would say "actually I don't agree".. if you were at a funeral you wouldn't say "the guy was a f*cking moron anyway", even if he was.. if someone is deeply agreeved about something, a better way of dealing with it is to say "Unfortunately mate, this is a reality of life IMHO. Not sure there's a lot you can do about it, but I wish you all the best.", not :

"Don't you think your all being a bit pathetic over this, would you go back to tesco's the day after you bought something and complain that they had dropped the price over night, get real!!!"

(apologies for singling one post out.. but it sums it up - and it is important to be aware that this whole thing is in NO WAY aimed at anyone in particular - or even a group of individuals.. it is a concept only)

Cheers

Simon

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Fame at last! I have been singled out as the community trouble maker

MarkO

Oi, getoff, that's my job.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Sorry

MarkO

So calling somebody a '*** head' would be inappropriate too?

ex-webby

Wurzel and MarkO

Both of those posts are completely irrelevant and not adding to this thread. They are not negative towards it so there is no reasonable reason to delete them, but please let's keep this positive and reasoned.

OK.. THIS IS IMPORTANT.

There is NOTHING wrong with disagreeing. It is ONLY the ANTI-community spirit things I'm talking about. Where people are attacked for their view points rather than offered a thought out and reasoned response.

Cheers

Simon

dsmith

With refernece to some "for sale" threads. If member A is asking 100% too much for his car/pc/old barbie doll, should the community

a) keep stum and respect his right to ask for whatever he wants

b) point out the over pricing so that the large percentage of potentially naive buyes dont buy thinking "oooh its on S'Net - It must be a good price 'cos we're all chums here".

And the number of posts demanding sympathy for getting caught speeding, scratching paintwork or stubbing a toe is frankly ridiculous. If you post to a public BBS you really have to accept that people may disagree with you. If you genuinely need some friendly moral support - pick up the phone and talk to real friends not just a collection ov virtual username. ( the 2 groups are not necessarily mutually exlcusive as many on the board wil testify).

Deano