Rallying, whats the point?
10 September 2002, 04:04 PM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Markyate.Imprezas owned:-wrx-sti5typeR-p1-uk22b-modded my00. Amongst others!
Posts: 8,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We all know that Subaru have done quite well in their quest for rally championships, and we watching these cars and been impressed (even in a small way) have gone and bought a subaru. Im not saying its the only reason, just that it may have swung opinion in some minds.
Increasingly however, especially over the last decade, i fear rallying has no interest for me whatsoever, and i used to love watching it. However, what bugs me is the fact that WRC cars bear no relation to a production run model bought by the general public, apart from in looks alone, and even that is brought into question now.
I may be wrong but in years gone by with the homogenization, at least the cars were similar to the road cars that were produced. Now its more of a blank card and manufactures are specially building one offs as team cars only. With rampant commercialism in the sport now as well, private teams are being squeezed out.
Just seems to me now that the whole thing is a lot less exciting, and its hard to relate to a car that the only thing it shares with mine is a subaru badge. If this is progress, give me the first generation imprezas, evos, celicas cosworths of years ago. I know that they werent the same as road cars even then, but things did seem more exciting with loads of privateers and cars i can much more relate to.
[Edited by scoobynutta555 - 10/9/2002 4:05:44 PM]
Increasingly however, especially over the last decade, i fear rallying has no interest for me whatsoever, and i used to love watching it. However, what bugs me is the fact that WRC cars bear no relation to a production run model bought by the general public, apart from in looks alone, and even that is brought into question now.
I may be wrong but in years gone by with the homogenization, at least the cars were similar to the road cars that were produced. Now its more of a blank card and manufactures are specially building one offs as team cars only. With rampant commercialism in the sport now as well, private teams are being squeezed out.
Just seems to me now that the whole thing is a lot less exciting, and its hard to relate to a car that the only thing it shares with mine is a subaru badge. If this is progress, give me the first generation imprezas, evos, celicas cosworths of years ago. I know that they werent the same as road cars even then, but things did seem more exciting with loads of privateers and cars i can much more relate to.
[Edited by scoobynutta555 - 10/9/2002 4:05:44 PM]
10 September 2002, 04:58 PM
#2
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 10,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
uxg - shouldn't include Skoda there mate - you forgeting the Octavia RS and the 4x4 
both turbo and one a turbo and 4 wheel drive 
[Edited by ScoobyJawa - 10/9/2002 4:58:28 PM]
both turbo and one a turbo and 4 wheel drive [Edited by ScoobyJawa - 10/9/2002 4:58:28 PM]
10 September 2002, 05:14 PM
#3
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not suggesting they are cheating. I know that Peugot etc are playing by the rules. I'm just saying it would be nice if they brought over more of their technology over to the road cars. After all who wouldn't want to drive a 4wd turbo'd monster from one of the best hot hatch makers in the business.
Ooops sorry Skoda
[Edited by uxg - 10/9/2002 5:15:49 PM]
Ooops sorry Skoda
[Edited by uxg - 10/9/2002 5:15:49 PM]
09 October 2002, 04:12 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 13,735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't agree with you on this one.
Sure, WRC is waaaay off what you can buy, but other classes are closer.
At least the Subaru team, and Mitsubishi team, are running hardware that in some way is similar. There's a turbo-charged 2 litre engine in there linked to 4WD hardware. Admittedly, the tune, diffs, brakes, hell everything, is rather different.
Rallying is an exciting sport to watch, IMHO. Things happen.
I think Evo summed it up with their frontispiece last month: instead of congratulating ford and peugeot for their latest stuff, people should shout "about bloody time"
Nick.
Sure, WRC is waaaay off what you can buy, but other classes are closer.
At least the Subaru team, and Mitsubishi team, are running hardware that in some way is similar. There's a turbo-charged 2 litre engine in there linked to 4WD hardware. Admittedly, the tune, diffs, brakes, hell everything, is rather different.
Rallying is an exciting sport to watch, IMHO. Things happen.
I think Evo summed it up with their frontispiece last month: instead of congratulating ford and peugeot for their latest stuff, people should shout "about bloody time"
Nick.
09 October 2002, 04:17 PM
#6
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi nutta!
Don't quite understand your point, mate. Maybe you should try going to a few rallies. There are a lot of scoobs being entered and even used as reccie cars - why? Because even though they may not be up to WRC standard, they drive like a rally car if you've got a decent forest stage to play with.
The National Championship (and the Peugot 206 SuperCup - sorry have to get a quick ad in!)is coming to Hampshire for the Tempest Stages rally the weekend of 26th October. Why don't you come and have a butcher's? You'll be impressed (even if only in a small way) and you'll remember why you bought yours in the first place.
Avril
Don't quite understand your point, mate. Maybe you should try going to a few rallies. There are a lot of scoobs being entered and even used as reccie cars - why? Because even though they may not be up to WRC standard, they drive like a rally car if you've got a decent forest stage to play with.
The National Championship (and the Peugot 206 SuperCup - sorry have to get a quick ad in!)is coming to Hampshire for the Tempest Stages rally the weekend of 26th October. Why don't you come and have a butcher's? You'll be impressed (even if only in a small way) and you'll remember why you bought yours in the first place.
Avril
Trending Topics
09 October 2002, 04:30 PM
#9
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my father gave up rallying in 1981. this was because to be competitive, the costs involved were getting ridiculous (£20-40k per year)
he did not want to continue unless he and his driver (Mike Davidson) could run works spec. the last car they had was a group 4 mk2 escort, BDA injection engine.
thus i agree to some degree with nutta.
Avril, the tempest rally is still going! my father (terry Weaver)got best co-driver on that in about 1900! (it was the 70's i think)
weava
he did not want to continue unless he and his driver (Mike Davidson) could run works spec. the last car they had was a group 4 mk2 escort, BDA injection engine.
thus i agree to some degree with nutta.
Avril, the tempest rally is still going! my father (terry Weaver)got best co-driver on that in about 1900! (it was the 70's i think)
weava
09 October 2002, 04:40 PM
#11
I sort-of agreee with Nutta.......if he means what I think he means.
My beef with rallying is that teams like Peugeot, Ford, and Toyota, shouldn't be allowed to compete unless they have an equivalent road car. And I don't mean just the body style, either.
Yes, I'm aware that having more teams would make it more interesting, but anyone who wanted to sell cars on the back of rallying success would have to have a car.......wouldn't they?
Peugeot were just taking the p*ss..the car they use didn't even qualify on length grounds. Not until they just happened to bring in a new version with slightly longer plastic bumpers!!
Sorry, IMHO, if the manufacturers want the sales that result from sporting successs, they should play fair, and use a modified road car!
Alcazar
My beef with rallying is that teams like Peugeot, Ford, and Toyota, shouldn't be allowed to compete unless they have an equivalent road car. And I don't mean just the body style, either.
Yes, I'm aware that having more teams would make it more interesting, but anyone who wanted to sell cars on the back of rallying success would have to have a car.......wouldn't they?
Peugeot were just taking the p*ss..the car they use didn't even qualify on length grounds. Not until they just happened to bring in a new version with slightly longer plastic bumpers!!
Sorry, IMHO, if the manufacturers want the sales that result from sporting successs, they should play fair, and use a modified road car!
Alcazar
09 October 2002, 04:47 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately it's like all things. As soon as big money starts getting involved it all get's f*****d up. Look at how boring and crap Formula 1 has got because the team who can afford to spend the most money always win.
Plus the homogalation point is a very good one as well. I know Mitsubishi and Subaru have cars in their range with at least have a passing resemblance to the WRC cars but what about all the other companies. After all how many turbocharged 4wd Peugot's, Skoda's, Hyundai's and Seat's do you see. I for one would like to see some more 4WD turbocharged monsters from these manufacurers to stir up the market some more
Plus the homogalation point is a very good one as well. I know Mitsubishi and Subaru have cars in their range with at least have a passing resemblance to the WRC cars but what about all the other companies. After all how many turbocharged 4wd Peugot's, Skoda's, Hyundai's and Seat's do you see. I for one would like to see some more 4WD turbocharged monsters from these manufacurers to stir up the market some more
09 October 2002, 04:58 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said UXG, couldnt have put it better.
The fact that Subaru and Mitsubishi make 4wd turbo'd monsters for the road, gives them more credibility.
Peugot having to add length to the plastic bumpers is a joke.
The fact that Subaru and Mitsubishi make 4wd turbo'd monsters for the road, gives them more credibility.
Peugot having to add length to the plastic bumpers is a joke.
09 October 2002, 05:10 PM
#15
the reason the rules changed from homologated production cars to the WRC car rule was simple, get more manufacturers involved.
Not every company wants to produce an AWD 2 litre Turbo road car, so until the WRC rules were introduced, the number of entrants from manufacturers was small.
The WRC wanted to expand and turn the sport into a rival to F1, in order to do that Homologation had to go.
peugeot and citroen are not cheeting *******s, they are legitimate entrants running cars as the FIA intended, within the WRC rules. To say anything else is rediculous.
Not every company wants to produce an AWD 2 litre Turbo road car, so until the WRC rules were introduced, the number of entrants from manufacturers was small.
The WRC wanted to expand and turn the sport into a rival to F1, in order to do that Homologation had to go.
peugeot and citroen are not cheeting *******s, they are legitimate entrants running cars as the FIA intended, within the WRC rules. To say anything else is rediculous.
09 October 2002, 05:20 PM
#16
Scooby Newbie
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My understanding is that developments that are made on the Rally circuit ARE bought down to the road cars, So....even though there is not a specific road car that you can buy which is like the Subarus et al you still do get the benfits of rallying at some stage. It is not like the older days sure, when there always had to be a road version, however at least the Subaru rally car is close to the road version........unlike the FOUR wheel drive Focus and 206. How many of them do you see on the road!
09 October 2002, 05:36 PM
#17
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 2,786
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I would ask the question... Football, whats the point. Its crap.
Rallying is a superb sport and long may it continue. It also doesnt seem to have the hooligan/drunken lout following that football does. Im not branding all football fans as hooligans BTW.
Just my opinion.
Rallying is a superb sport and long may it continue. It also doesnt seem to have the hooligan/drunken lout following that football does. Im not branding all football fans as hooligans BTW.
Just my opinion.
09 October 2002, 05:36 PM
#18
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Markyate.Imprezas owned:-wrx-sti5typeR-p1-uk22b-modded my00. Amongst others!
Posts: 8,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The main point im making is that things have gone way out of control as i see it. I agree that there should be varied maunfacturers putting on cars to rally, but rallying the way i see it has always been the common mans sport, something that he can to relate to. Comparing it to F1 and trying to make rallying more like F1 is a bit of a joke. F1 is very far removed from anything any manufacturer puts out on the road. The whole attraction to rallying for me was the fact that the cars were not wholly different cars that youd find on a forecourt.
Having big manufacturers strangulating the top positions all the time in their £500,000 plus cars doesnt strike me as being in touch with the common man. I seem to remember through my rose tinted glasses that privateers although not in the same class as the manufacturer teams, regularly were up there with them on far less considerable budgets.
Id like to see a championship that relies on actual cars with very minor mods allowed, im not saying replace what there is now, but maybe run alongside, and im fairly positive that with equal coverage given to it, will prove to be more enjoyable and watched than what we have now.
Touring cars has gone the same way IMHO, its rarely something i watch anymore.
Having big manufacturers strangulating the top positions all the time in their £500,000 plus cars doesnt strike me as being in touch with the common man. I seem to remember through my rose tinted glasses that privateers although not in the same class as the manufacturer teams, regularly were up there with them on far less considerable budgets.
Id like to see a championship that relies on actual cars with very minor mods allowed, im not saying replace what there is now, but maybe run alongside, and im fairly positive that with equal coverage given to it, will prove to be more enjoyable and watched than what we have now.
Touring cars has gone the same way IMHO, its rarely something i watch anymore.
09 October 2002, 05:41 PM
#19
Who cares how many FOUR wheel drive models you see on the road (the manufacturers dont), the market for those cars is tiny compared to the mass produced econoboxes that 99.9% of people buy.
WRC is all about marketing now, it has nothing to do with proving technology to pass down to the road vehicles. You may find 1% of the technology does filter down, but that isnt the purpose of the exercise.
Subaru has a specific market it goes after, which is why all its cars are AWD, it's Subaru's gimmick over the competition. If they didnt have this gimmick and hadnt built up the image via rallying, we wouldnt be discusing this now. Unless we were farmers that is.
Come on guys, stop fantasising, if the WRC rules were not in place the WRC would be small fry with 2 manufacturers tops, (or a FWD championship) although no doubt they wouldnt be there either, whats the point of competing against yourself, no cudos there.
WRC is all about marketing now, it has nothing to do with proving technology to pass down to the road vehicles. You may find 1% of the technology does filter down, but that isnt the purpose of the exercise.
Subaru has a specific market it goes after, which is why all its cars are AWD, it's Subaru's gimmick over the competition. If they didnt have this gimmick and hadnt built up the image via rallying, we wouldnt be discusing this now. Unless we were farmers that is.
Come on guys, stop fantasising, if the WRC rules were not in place the WRC would be small fry with 2 manufacturers tops, (or a FWD championship) although no doubt they wouldnt be there either, whats the point of competing against yourself, no cudos there.
09 October 2002, 05:49 PM
#20
and you can forget the WRC as it was a few years ago. That has deliberately been killed by the FIA and ISC, it is now a circus, just like F1 and its whole concept is around the manufacturers getting TV exposure. The WRC has nothing to do with the common privateer rally driver, those days are long gone.
If you want to see rallying in its true sense, you wont find it on the WRC i am afraid. WRC is all about producing an Internet and TV show/package, on the ground spectators are a nuisence that could cause the halting of the show.
If you want to see rallying in its true sense, you wont find it on the WRC i am afraid. WRC is all about producing an Internet and TV show/package, on the ground spectators are a nuisence that could cause the halting of the show.
09 October 2002, 06:19 PM
#24
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Tengiz the desert Kazachstan
Posts: 1,153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i have to agree with John on this one.
Rallying is one of the only forms of motorsport that actually has a marketing influence. In the period from 1993 onwards the Japanese domestic market was heavily influenced by the battle between Mitsubishi and Subaru on the rally stages.
You also must remember the original marketing ploy behind the Impreza - The RALLY REP!!
The WRC actually depicts vehicles that can be seen in the real world. The fact that technology has moved up to state of the art active diffrentials, fly-by-wire gear boxs etc.. Reflects the importance that the Manufacturers place on this sport. In F1 the vehicles do not relate to anything seen in a showroom. More manufacturers have recently entered the fray which is in my opinion excellent.
In rallying there are people that often support the car manufacturer rather than the driver, which I think is unique. I dont think rallying is the common mans sport simply because of the budgets required.
Personally i cant wait to get back to the UK at christmas and see some stages - Jack Frost rally Croft / Food Weigh house rally Catterick. Nothing better than the sound and sight of a scoob/escort/lancer with bang bang kit flicking out of a hair pin!!
PS does anyone on here know John Coates (Humberside) running a Group A Subaru.
Rallying is one of the only forms of motorsport that actually has a marketing influence. In the period from 1993 onwards the Japanese domestic market was heavily influenced by the battle between Mitsubishi and Subaru on the rally stages.
You also must remember the original marketing ploy behind the Impreza - The RALLY REP!!
The WRC actually depicts vehicles that can be seen in the real world. The fact that technology has moved up to state of the art active diffrentials, fly-by-wire gear boxs etc.. Reflects the importance that the Manufacturers place on this sport. In F1 the vehicles do not relate to anything seen in a showroom. More manufacturers have recently entered the fray which is in my opinion excellent.
In rallying there are people that often support the car manufacturer rather than the driver, which I think is unique. I dont think rallying is the common mans sport simply because of the budgets required.
Personally i cant wait to get back to the UK at christmas and see some stages - Jack Frost rally Croft / Food Weigh house rally Catterick. Nothing better than the sound and sight of a scoob/escort/lancer with bang bang kit flicking out of a hair pin!!
PS does anyone on here know John Coates (Humberside) running a Group A Subaru.
09 October 2002, 08:14 PM
#25
Scooby Regular
homogenization
ROFLI quite like watching the WRC these days - great fun compared to F1, and Avril is right about the 206 Super Cup thingy.
It is on ITV in the early hours now and then so I always tape it.Really good fun and some great rallying.
09 October 2002, 09:23 PM
#27
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a house
Posts: 5,153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PS Ever heard of Group N? Close to most road cars to me!
09 October 2002, 11:11 PM
#28
Scooby Regular
There is a new class of car called a NRC(national rally car)being planned by the FIA,it should cost a lot less and maybe have more in common with the road cars.
09 October 2002, 11:40 PM
#29
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the whole point of watching rallying is because of the spectacle(sight,sound,smell etc..)rather than worrying how close the cars are to road cars??.I for one find GpN boring as **** to watch,endless scoobs,evos and couldnt really be bothered going out spectating for the day if all the cars competing were a close reincarnation of something you can buy in the showroom.
10 October 2002, 12:17 AM
#30
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These cars in the WRC and Formula 1 are where we are today, its the very point of more than a Hundred years of Automotive Evolution. And that cant be represented by what my Uncle John drives, its got to be special. Promotion and marketing were just as much a part of competitions way back in the 50's and 60's, albeit not as widespread as it is today and that's down to technology again pushing the boundaries in creating more mediums of communication. I for one embrace it, one foot firmly in the future! Every new car ive ever bought has been a step forward and upward and its only when I get back into the old cars I had that I fully appreciate what ive got today, although the memories that the old car brings back cant be rivalled (Good and bad)
Anyone can have a bash at rallying and they don't even need to shell out that much, Road rallies for a start, then into Novas and Peugot small capacity rallies, easily done for the cost of you average Holiday abroad. It might not be Tire Toasting, Gearbox munching, Driveshaft Destroying Carnage unless you like being frugal with your money.
And sure rallies might of seemed very reachable to most a few years back, but im also sure there are a few middle classed kids today who through passion, obsession and complete dedication will develop into the WRC drivers of Tomorrow, and they don't just turn up with their.5Mil cars and their pockets lined. Although television allows people to think that there are only 10 people competing in the WRC, there is still lots more fun going on which can only been seen when you go in person. When I goto the WRC im going to see the best of the best Car, Driver and Co Driver all in one and its got nothing to do with any other outside forces (Marketing, Promotion, Capital and even technology) these all go out the window once Car and Driver leaves the Gate.
Mind you when the future conceives ugly *******isation like the bug eye it forces you to eat you words....
'Taxi'
[Edited by Jaay - 10/10/2002 12:22:34 AM]
Anyone can have a bash at rallying and they don't even need to shell out that much, Road rallies for a start, then into Novas and Peugot small capacity rallies, easily done for the cost of you average Holiday abroad. It might not be Tire Toasting, Gearbox munching, Driveshaft Destroying Carnage unless you like being frugal with your money.
And sure rallies might of seemed very reachable to most a few years back, but im also sure there are a few middle classed kids today who through passion, obsession and complete dedication will develop into the WRC drivers of Tomorrow, and they don't just turn up with their.5Mil cars and their pockets lined. Although television allows people to think that there are only 10 people competing in the WRC, there is still lots more fun going on which can only been seen when you go in person. When I goto the WRC im going to see the best of the best Car, Driver and Co Driver all in one and its got nothing to do with any other outside forces (Marketing, Promotion, Capital and even technology) these all go out the window once Car and Driver leaves the Gate.
Mind you when the future conceives ugly *******isation like the bug eye it forces you to eat you words....
'Taxi'
[Edited by Jaay - 10/10/2002 12:22:34 AM]