Lee

I cant speak for the AP kit but I can say Stef has hammered the nail squarely on the head !

I have a MY99 with (supposedly) the decent (STi) brakes.

I had massive fade, the brakes were billowing smoke after 3 laps etc etc plus I have got cracks in the discs (this is a '99 year problem according to Scoobysport and will be done under warranty..but will happen again and again)

Although I will still be fiddling with ECU's for the next trackday (next year now me thinks) I will have a decent set of brakes in place.

its simply not safe to do a enthusiastic trackday otherwise IMHO.

Stef

.....Brakes! (surprise, surprise )

I suggest you make yourself a cup of something, and make sure you are sitting comfortably.
Ready? Then I'll begin....
Forget your PPP, forget your ECU remaps/chips, forget your adjustable suspension, forget everything.......at least UNTIL you've sorted your brakes out.
As most of you know, I was in the enviable position at Donington of being asked to test Scoobymania's new AP Racing brake conversion.
Those of you that were there, even more so those of you that came out with me, will know just how INCREDIBLE this kit was. For those of you that were unfortunate enough to miss out, let me enlighten you.......
On Friday morning (day before Donno!) my car went into the AP Racing workshops in Coventry. Mike from Scoobymania met me there, and after a whistle-stop tour of the facility, it was down to business.
My car was there to have the 'prototype' AP Racing conversion for standard 16" wheels fitted. I say prototype, as it is the first kit that AP have developed solely for the Scoob with SOLID grooved discs, not their usual cross-drilled jobbies, something that Scoobymania were keen to avoid.
Whilst the fitting was taking place, we weighed the old kit against the new. The figures were astounding. My car, being a MY98 only had the twin-pot calipers, and of course much smaller discs. Despite this, the AP kit (including pads) still weighed over 3kg less PER CORNER!!!!!!! That's a total saving in unsprung weight of more than 6kg!!! Nuff said about the weight then.
I had the new four-pot conversion, as I wish to keep my 16" wheels for slicks. Those of you lucky enough to get the larger kit for 17" wheels will benefit ftom their even-more-amazing-six-pot set-up!!
Anyway, after adding temperature paint to the discs to measure the heat the discs reached, the fitting was completed and the rest of the day was spent bedding them in.
After a 'Pre-Christmas' type sleepless night, it was an early start and off to join the convoy to Donno. What a superb feeling btw, thanks to all those that turned out. I didn't see most of you at the track though, sorry!
After a very comprehensive driver's briefing, it was down to business. I was very excited, as I have never been able to drive my car as hard as I would have liked before, due largely to brake fade. I knew I was in for a good day. After taking the other half round very slowly (but still TOO fast! ) to give the car time to heat up, the day was unfortunately interrupted by someone having a major off. Whilst I sympathise with the driver, I can't help feeling frustrated that Rob's words weren't heeded in the briefing. He isn't the instructor for nothing.
Anyway, the day resumed and so did my grinning!
As the day went on, my confidence just grew and grew. Nothing I can really say here could do justice to the performance of these brakes, you really had to be in the car. Anyone who was must have been as amazed as I was, and judging by some of their faces as they got out of my car, I think they were. Any passengers want to comment?
I was running in a standard UK car with aftermarket exhaust and induction kit. I have no other mods to my suspension, and was running on part worn tyres. Depsite this, I was able to beat my previous best (unofficially, of course) by an enormous 9 SECONDS!!!!! Nine seconds......think about it. Exactly the same car, being driven by the same driver, the only difference being the braking ability of the car. That says more for the brakes than anything I ever could. Every other car on the track simply got mauled through the bends, and it gave me a buzz I cannot describe. Even the EVO VI's with their all-round Brembo set-up were no match. It became apparent why Ralliart (amongst others) use AP kits on the WRC cars!!!!! Only on the straights were some of the more powerful cars able to pull away, only to see the gap reduced to nothing by the time the following bend had passed.
There are several after market conversions available for the Inpreza; Brembo, Willwood, Tarox, and of course the new Prodrive set-up.
Whilst I am unable to offer a direct comparison with any of these kits, I doubt most of them match up to the AP kit. The simple reason for this is that I have never heard anyone with any of these kits rave wildly about them. I'm sure they all have their pro's and cons, but the lap times speak for themselves, although of course braking ability isn't the only factor!
I was also running with AP's own fast road/track pad, so with a more aggressive pad the performance would have been better still. Add to this the universal brake support bracket that Scoobymania are offering, and I reckon you've got the best brakes money can buy. I noticed that my front tyres were literally devoured by the brakes, and had to replace the fronts twice, which is why I use part worns!!! The rears, however, seemed to suffer less than usual, probably due to the fact that they were under less pressure because of the massive weight transfer the brakes induced. This also made for some very entertaining, if not efficient, sideways action . I also had to relace my rear pads (cheers Pete!) as my standard one's simply could not cope!
I suffered from absolutely NO brake fade whatsoever, despite being out for most of the day. I do not know how many laps I did, but I would argue that it was more than anyone else. I felt soooooooo safe it was unbelievable. Having faith in your brakes is priceless.
90% of F1 teams, and countless other race teams can't be wrong.
I do not know exact prices (Ben, Mike?), but if you're thinking of upgrading your brakes, you should certainly add this kit to your shortlist.
Next on the agenda are anti-lft and anti-roll kits with uprated bushes.I have decided that for now, at least, ANY electronic upgrade seems a waste of money before upgrading your brakes.
I am sorry for blabbing on, but I am obviously very impressed. I'd like to thank all at Scoobymania (Mike, Ben, Jonathan) for giving me the oppurtunity to finally see what my car is capable of, and hope you remember me when the orders come flooding in!!
Start saving!!!

A Very, Very Happy Stef
(not on commission unfortunately! )




[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 22-11-1999).]

Bajie

I've been waiting for this .
Where do I sign up for the six-pot 17" wheel jobbies then.
The cars waiting ...

Craig H

Don't you find, that doing all this, highlights how hard the Impreza is on tyres?
It doesn't seem which brand you choose, they all seem to go off after 5-10 laps.

Stef

Craig.

I disagree. Tyres will last as long as you want, but it depends how hard you drive. This is the same with any car.
Don't forget, I went through 4 PART WORN front tyres, the backs were fine. I was using Bridgestone SE10's or whatever they're called, and they were all over half worn before I put them on.
They still managed 10 laps on a single session before traction was noticeably reduced despite all my sideways abuse. I reckon each pair managed about 30 laps.
For the first time though, my rears suffered hardly at all!

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 22-11-1999).]

sickboy

Stephan,

how much for the 6 pot set up??

Stef

Any queries regarding price, etc, will need to be directed to the chaps at Scoobymania who will be selling the kits. I'm sure one of them will post a reply soon (guys?).
I was simply testing it for them at Donno.
I'm sure it won't be the cheapest set on the market, but then the Scoob isn't the cheapest car.
Nuff said.

Stef.

Mike Rainbird

Dear All,
As someone who was lucky enough to go out in Stefs car I can vouch for what he has said. I also have the AP set up (but with 330mm discs) on my car and the difference has got to be experienced to be believed. However, what Stef hasn't pointed out is the handling benefits (on 4wd) that these brakes offer as well as the safety factor. Firstly, he was able to leave his braking 'till the absolute last second, which enabled him to make HUGE distances up on the other cars on the track. Secondly (the bonus by-product of this), when he stood on the brakes, they were so fierce that they transfered all the weight to the front of the car, which then aided front end grip for when he turned in (NO understeer.....). It also meant that it unsettled the rear enabling him to balance the corner / grip on the throttle (lift off to get the back end out, nail it to pull the car straight and accelerate through). However, I would point out that I have been out with instructors with less understanding of car control than Stef, who was smooth where necessary and an animal for the entertainment factor ('cos I kept pleading with him to get the back end out!). As the saying goes - "Power is nothing without control", so upgrade those brakes first!

Stef,
In looking around at the other cars I noticed that some models have vented rear discs. I would suggest that you fit these callipers / discs to erradicate you current solid disc, pad eating problems. The vented disc will obviously run cooler on the track days and won't eat the pads like your current solid disc set-up. I had the same problem with mine and fortunately the 4x4 Cossies run with vented discs on the back, so I fitted these and it has cured the problem. With regard to the uprated anti-roll bars, I would be very careful of how far you go, because if the car can't roll enough (because the 'bars are too stiff), then the car will slide rather than grip. I think you have more to gain by fitting slicks, because the handling only seemed to suffer when the road tyres got too hot.

I can't wait untill next year for a track day where we can go head to head! I may be attending the one at Snetterton this Thursday with the Evo club, but not with the Cossie, as I haven't got the road diff back yet and the solid one might be okay at Santa Pod, but on a track I think I might be at a slight disadvantage.....

Keep in touch over the winter.

Best regards
Mike

Benny Boy

The price for Stef's kit is £1275 + VAT. We are still finalising the spec and price of the 6 pot kit and the 4 pot 17" kit.

If anybody has any enquiries I will be glad to help where I can.

ben@scoobymania.co.uk or 0118 981 0832 / 07880 701 655

Kind regards

Ben
p.s. website still being built by our illustrious BBS webmaster

Stef

Thanks for the extra info Mike. You make some very valid points.
I am a little concerned about the roll-bars, but really would like to reduce the roll a little. Good advice about my rear discs though, I'll look into that.
I would like to point out that my Scoob is the first high performance car I have owned, bar a couple of old hot hatches. I had never driven on a track before this year and I have had my Scoob for a year now. The car has made me a better driver. I only consider myself to be an average driver, in an exceptional car. I do have a competetive streak in me (don't we all?) that pushes my desire to learn what my car is capable of, and it is at track days that this desire is satified.
I would really like to thank the SIDC for existing, and those involved in organising these events for doing so.
For those of you new to the scene, with the right mentality and car set-up, you too can enjoy exactly the same buzz. I have suffered my fair share of offs into the gravel and the like, but I learned something every time.
Whilst some may consider me one of the old boys as far as track days are concerned, I consider that I still have very much to learn.
The track is the only place you can fully explore the potential of the Impreza. Sort out the wrinkles beforehand however, and this potential is magnified ten-fold.
One of those wrinkles is the brakes.
Nuff said.

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 22-11-1999).]

Stuey F

Benny Boy,

Stef states that the discs are:

"SOLID grooved discs, not their usual cross-drilled jobbies"

Doesn't this mean they are not vented discs.

Reason I'm asking is from the pictures of the brake set up I've seen the disc's seem to be vented.

cheers

Stu

*who is either mis-informed or knows **** all about brake terms.

Craig H

From what's been said, I've got around 4 months to save for the disks - can't have a pesky UK car faster than me!
And just to make sure I'll get the suspension done (and someone else who CAN drive to drive it!)

RaymondH

These new brakes certainly sound the business but they must place enormous strains on the rest of the car - suspension, bodyshell etc. How well will the car stand up to that?

Oz

Just out of interest....I notice the SS Brembo kit offer 'floating' discs while the AP kit are 'fixed' discs.

I admit it...I know nothing about these matters. What does it mean? Is it better or worse?

JamesH-2

With a fixed disc, if it is out of "true" when it passes the pads, it can force them back in, reducing pressure on disc, hence brake pressure & ability. This also helps to heat up fluid.

Floating discs are not held rigidly in place, rather by a system of "lugs" - hard to explain on paper - and as the pads don't move in & out when a warped disc passed between them, instead the disc moves, allowing more even pressure etc etc.

Also less brake pad wear over time.

I think probably more common on bikes, they have thinner discs, than on cars, whose vented discs are reasonably thick & less prone to warping.

Also high & sustained brake temperatures (not real world) can help to warp discs and floaters will minimise/eliminate this during a race or whatever.

Mike Tuckwood

Stuey.

Yes they are vented, 48 vane, curved vanes.

Stef wrote> 'SOLID grooved discs, not their usual cross-drilled jobbies.' He meant they were not cross drilled in the usual fashion.

Floating discs are not rigidly fixed to the bell, this offers a benefit where heat transfer to the bell is a problem, which in severe cases can cause ...... Aw It's all described well enough in Pete C's article in true Grip!

(Floating discs by design can move more in the caliper and can cause pad knockback on there own). They don't allow more even pressure but if things are out of true/warped they will self centralise to a degree, you would get bad vibration regardless of the mounting system if you have a warped disc with even moderate use, never mind heavy track use, (not aware of any disc warping problems on Petes discs).


There should be no difference in pad wear between either rigid mounted or floating discs.

The 'floating disc' will see the same sort of temperatures at a track as a rigid mounted one, with top grade kit, used correctly, warped discs should be very rare indeed!

The tolerances on the 'floating' element also have the potential to become clogged/blocked by brake pad material and general road grime & crap which can cause the floating disc to Err...... not float?This would show as vibration similar to wheel being out of balance.

The price of the 6 pot kit we are talking to AP about at the moment (The kit is available, we are not happy with the price yet but nearly there) The current price if you want one immediately is £1,745.52 (+ VAT).

We are currently developing a rear vented disc & 2 pot caliper for the rear with AP Racing, more news ....... when there is some.

If you want any further details then contact Either:
Ben

Steve Prockter

Stef.......I read with interest you comments about the AP brake set up, not least because I too was running new brakes on Saturday. I thought is might be useful to post some comments reflecting my experience with these as follows:

BRAKES...Fronts new (a week old) Scoobysport Brembos Group A Kit, rears standard MY99.

BRAKE PADS..New standard Brembos pads, rear standard pads done about 2500 miles.

TYRES...Part worn 17" P Zero's (205/45)

CAR.......MY99, PPP, Leda C and Brembos (group A).

DISTANCE AND TRACK TIMES.......I clocked 192 miles on my car odometer, and I recorded on Video about 1 hours worth of track time mounted in the car, which has enabled me to work out my best lap time with clear track taken from the video playback. I also caught one of the big "offs" of the day on video, as I was the following car. The time seems a pretty important factor when coming to evaluation so the best time I clocked on the video was 1 minute 31. I would like to think that there were some quicker laps off footage, but it is surprising how few laps were achieved without traffic.

BRAKE FEEL/FADE.....First out the pits the brakes didn't seem to have much initial bite braking through Craner Curves or the Old Hairpin, until some heat had built up and by Mcleans the brakes felt razor sharp. In fact the hotter the brakes got the better they seemed to perform. The only point on the track where I was able to hit the ABS was into Coppice on initial application. It was possible to brake into Redgate at the end of the blue pitlane exit hatching with ease. My longest single stint was 9 laps, and I was always forced to retire owing to the tyres over heating, the brakes never once felt like fading and even after several laps, eye watering deaccleration was achievable corner after corner. I was more concerned about breaking the bulk head with repeated hard application of the brakes than the brakes themselves ever giving up. In fact on several occasion when I was sure the brakes couldn't possibly haul me up any quicker an extra hard stab increased retardation beyond the point where you might imagine the tyres to be able to cope.

NOISE....I never expected the brakes to make any noise as such, but this was apparent when the brakes were hot, and you can detect the sense of the pads rubbing over the groves in the disc, a little bit like the sensation of driving over the rumble strips on a motorway, but to a lesser extent. Performance never seemed to be compromised at any point despite this, and the noise had a kind of high tech touring car type feel to it. It may be that with Pagid Pads things might be different if anyone knows different....

WEAR....The post track inspection has revealed that 4mm pad depth is left on the front pads and about 5mm on the rear. The front discs don't seem to have worn at all to the eye other than the surface is more scratched up with radial lines created by the pads. The tyres which started with about 4mm on the front and 3mm on the rear are now ready for replacement. I did seem to get more wear on the left that the right. The edges on the tyres are still totally intact (11,000 miles). Thats Scoobysport Leda for you.

For anybody able to read this far without falling asleep this is the end (P.S I am not on commission either).

Steve

Stef

Steve.

Interesting to read your views on what is considered to be the current 'king' of Impreza braking systems.
As you feel that 'lap time is a pretty important factor when coming to evaluation', allow me to add my comparison.
You have a MY99 with PPP, Leda C & Brembos.
Best time: 1 min 31 secs.
I have a MY98 with standard everything bar exhaust/filter and the AP kit.
Best time: 1 min 26 secs.Average (of 3): 1 min 28 secs.
Interesting.
We could of course continue forever with the 'which brakes are better' debate, but it's down to each individual's choice. That's what competition is all about. Both kits are immensely more powerful than the standard poo jobbies, and I'm sure everyone will be happy with whichever kit they buy. I've only driven an AP equipped car, so that's all I can comment on.
Basing it on your comparison of lap times though..........

Stef.

PS Mike. Rear AP vented twin-pots? Yummy! If you need a test pilot again....




[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 23-11-1999).]

Anders

Now Steph, as you are post lobotomy i.e. your fear circuits were cut out in that dreadful conservatory selling accident!

It is not appropriate to compare your super-star status lap times with mere mortals!

I like the Brembo stuff, I think it is great that Benny and his gang are able to bring to the market an effective, safe and reliable alternative that will not blow up in your face!

Anders

I turned up late to spectate as I needed a lie in!

I thought Darren Soothill was using my ticket, when I bumped into him mid afternoon he said he had bought another persons ticket and so I ventured out.

I did not see the accidents.


I remain extremely impressed with Stef's car control.

At nw time did I feel frightend, exhilarated yes!

I drive like a old lady when there are other cars arround and boot it when there no other cars to "collect", if I ever make a mistake.

I have been able to learn the handling charecteristics of my 22B (and now Mr Squires' ) on circuits safely.

This has proved invaluable in many fast road driving situations. A previous 16 years of front wheel drive "no performance" cars required that I relearnt how to drive quickly.

Pushing standard road brakes to the limmit naturally leads to brake fade, so the individuals with any sense stop to cool down.

Personally my tyres "go off" first as I am not smooth, I never go on the grass or kerbs as I a not bothered about shaving a few seconds off "my time".

When I went out with Stef, he was showing me the benfits of weight transference, something that Pete Croney has always shown me in his Scooby Sorted car. Pete is a smoother driver than Stef, but Stef enjoys letting his back slide round in a noisier fashion.

What is wrong with this if he is in control?

What exactly went wrong on the day to cause you to feel sufficient disquiet to write your piece?

As I have already said I missed the accidents arriving mid afternoon.

Bajie

I thought the idea of track days was to take you and your car to its maximum in a 'safe' environment.
I for one drive too fast, ie over the speed limit. Is this due to me deliberately speeding or the fact that the car does not seem to be going that fast?
When on track days while you are given the chance to go faster, I would suspect you are also told to be considerate of other drivers.
I'm fast in a straight line, but I'm sure someone you gets a better line and knows the limit of his/her car better will pass me which may have been the case when Stef overtook the Evo VI.
You can get track day insurance but as yet I don't know exactly what it covers you for.
As for brakes I have upgraded pads and yes they are good for the road. But on track days a lot of people seem to be suffering from brake fade. I for one would not like to experience this.

Darren Soothill

Please Please Please dont feel that trackdays are racing days or that you are in anymore danger than you would be on a normal road if you drive as though you are on a road!

On a road you wouldnt drive a small number of feet off the rear bumper of the car in front and you wouldnt dive down the inside of someone else into a corner.

If you think about what the dangers are then you dont have a problem.

In the whole day I only had issues with 2 cars one of these was because of his lack of rear observance and he didnt see me behind him for nearly a lap! And the second time was actually involved with the first time in that someone thought I was slowing down but I was actually following the car above and overtook going into the esses.

This incident was reported and words where had with the driver in question.

During the day I didnt have any cars pass me except when on cold tyres or slowing down but neither did I have any spins or offs of any sort.

Having seen the brake pads on Stefs car I would be concerned about the rate of pad wear on them and also the fact that they needed to add extra tubing to the setup to feed cold air to the brakes and this is on a standard UK car which is not carrying as much speed down the straights hence being able to brake later or running on slicks and being able to get more force into the brakes.

I am very very happy with the setup of the Brembos its perhaps just my personality that doesnt get me to rave on about the brakes in the same way that Stef has! Also I came from a 4 pot setup with Pagid pads which means the difference between them is somewhat reduced.

I also realise that the AP setup is under development and the pads could be replaced by the Pagid ones which are also being suggested by Prodrive as an upgrade to the prodrive setup for the guys at Listers.

Darren

[This message has been edited by Darren Soothill (edited 23-11-1999).]

Benny Boy

The pads on Stef's car were road pads. We had a set of Carbon Metallic pads that AP suggested we used for the track.

We wanted to see how the car would perform on standard pads and the results speak for themselves. He wore two thirds of pads in two tanks of fuel. This might explain the apparent wear rate.

The ducting was STef's idea after he had seen it on the STi 4 5dr with slicks and so he wanted it!! AP had mentioned it might be required and Stef just wanted it anyway.

Temperature was not an issue with the system and prior to the ducting, the temperature sensitive paint showed that the kit did not exceed its capacities.

Everyone must remember that the testing Stef did was more extreme thany anybody else would do on the track let alone on the road.

The bottom line is that if you you want to do a track day and lap all day stopping for fuel and allowing tyres to cool, there are options in the AP and brembo kits.

Which one you have depends on what flicks your switch!

Kind regards

Benny

malique

What trackdays are supposed to be about can hardly be explained by someone who doesn't do them.

Dont mind the Dweeb StePH. GO stePH GO! I'm right behind you! *as is everyone else on the track it seems*

Craig H

I think Mr Webb has missed the point totally. I, like most, would much rather have a relatively safe off on track and drive sanely on roads. If the limits are reached for whatever reason, then I feel my (limited) track experience would either help me get out of it, or avoid it in the first place.
I don't see how track days can make you anything but a better driver. And have fun in the process.

DavidLewis

Paul W.

Before the Cadwell AGM, I pretty much agreed with your posted comments regarding putting my Scooby on the track. But at Cadwell, after a ride with Stef which, although making me more concerned about the stresses placed on the car, I thoroughly enjoyed and then after a debate about the safety side of things with Pete Croney, I slowly came around to thinking that it was something that I had to try for myself, then make an opinion. (gasp for breath )

Again thanks to Pete, I managed to blag a place at Donnington. My first action was to wait and let all those anxious to get out go first and watch how a track day works. This was an inspired decision as it happens as the first major off was within 3 laps.

Once I did venture out, it wasn't long before I was confident enough to start pushing. Behaviour on the track (whenever I was on it) was excellent. Nobody ever hassled me to pull over (although this was one factor I was paying extreeme attention to) and when closing in on slower cars, they all pulled over for me bar a few Sti's that seemed to hold me up in corners but have enough 'grunt' on the straights to stay well ahead.

Now to the point. You cant drive a car like ours on the road as fast as you can on the track. Its too dangerous. And if you cant drive a Scooby fast, then why buy one?

The track, if you are sensible, is the safest place to get to know your Scooby. I put mine in the gravel trap . I wont make that mistake again. If I had made that same mistake on the road, my car would be a write-off and who knows, I might not be here. Instead, all I've got is 2 scratched up alloys.

I'm now hooked. Pete knew I would be. And the next trackday will never be too quick in coming.

Try it, you may, like me, change your mind

[This message has been edited by DavidLewis (edited 23-11-1999).]

Stef

Thanks guys.

Mr Webb.
I consider myself to be a very courteous driver on track, and it wasn't me driving up behind people flashing my headlights!!!
Just for your information, I wasn't timing myself and didn't ask anyone to time me. Some people were and it was they who gave me my times. I had intended to time myself from video footage, like Steve did, and I have now done this. I do not believe this invalidates my insurance, but thank you for being so concerned.
Secondly, I do not go on track days to drive 'cleanly'. I can do this for free on the road. The track, for me anyway, is a place that I can SAFELY push my car to limits unreachable on the public highway, and have huge amounts of fun doing it. I enjoy getting the back end out, and in the past I've lost it and gone off. I have learned something each time, and it hopefully won't happen again. Never though have I put any other cars in danger. Occasionally, someone may indicate right to move over, but then remain on the 'racing' line (may I call it that?). This is obviously down to experience, but still no incidents have risen from it.
I enjoy taking passengers as much as I hope they enjoy coming out with me, perhaps you should have indulged yourself?
I do not 'race' other cars either. I simply drive my car as fast and hard as I think I can, and in doing so I'm inevitably going to catch other cars. I can't deny that I sometimes set a 'target', but it adds a little something extra to the fun. Having never driven on track you wouldn't know though would you?
I know not everyone pushes themselves or their cars as hard as myself and some others do, and that's fine. I think most people enjoy themselves however they drive. Some antics on Saturday were not desirable, but I would not like to think that anyone had a problem with me.
Anyway, I did not intend an 'I'm faster than you' posting. I simply responded to Steve's statement that lap times were a fair indication of brake performance.
Oh, and one last thing, isn't that what the kerbs are there for?

Darren.
As Benny said, the ducting was my idea although the guys at AP said to try it halfway through the day if I kept the road pads in, which I did. I just wanted to see if it made a difference, which it didn't!!
My pads were 2/3 worn by the end, but should still easily get me through the winter.

This is not intended to be a slanging match between brakes. I am simply expressing my opinion on the performance of a new brake set that I was asked to test. Anyone else with any other brake kit is able to do exactly the same. That's one of the purposes for which this BBS exists.
If anyone has a problem with me in the future though, I would ask they e-mail me direct to save possible embarassment. Alternatively, editing messages sometimes helps.
Thank you.

Stef.
PS Anders. "What exactly went wrong on the day for you to feel sufficient disquiet to write you piece?". You have got a way with words you know!! LOL.
Incidentally, I didn't want to compare my track times with anyone, but if 'mere mortals' wish to do so with me.......
[

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 23-11-1999).]

Mike Rainbird

Dear All,
I can see where Mr Webb is coming from - he is concerned about idiots "taking out" him and his car. However, I would suggest that these "type" of people are hot-heads who would be as unsafe on the road as on the track (and although it is a sweeping generalisation), probably have no idea of car control, racing line or more importantly do not know their own or the car's limits. However, I would also say that it is out of ignorance and not deliberate malice or fore-thought.

Obviously not knowing any of this makes it easy for them to step over the fine line of staying on the track or falling off (or being a danger to others). However, what Mr Webb doesn't seem to grasp is that everyone has to start somewhere and these people can learn something by going on the track that could save their lives on the road as well as improve their driving and understanding of car control. Obviously it is the instructors' responsibility to identify the weaker, probably less experienced drivers (and people who report any unsafe driving would help this), so that they could be "educated" to improve their driving standards (I don't think most people set out on track days to be deliberately dangerous, but just tend to get the "red mist"!). From what I understand, there was alot of track day virgins out there, and having been out three times in three different cars, not once did I witness any discourteous or dangerous driving.

With regard to the "timing" factor, most of the time this was done by third parties unbeknown to the drivers until they came into the pits. And you can hardly take umbridge at those who timed their video footage afterwards either.....

I'm sure that those new to the "game" who started off erratic at the beginning of the day soon learned that smooth driving was rewarded with a HUGE sense of accomplishment and will be back again for more. Also on track driving is so much safer than trying to do the same on the road. I have yet to hear of a death on a track day, yet we hear several a day on the roads - surely if EVERYONE knew how to regain control of a car that has gone past it's limit of adhesion (for what-ever reason), then it would reduce road casualties considerably.....

Track days should be compulsory!

Best regards
Mike

Craig H

I think Mikes hit the nail on the head for once!
It can be concerning if you're on track and there's a few idiots spoiling. Best thing is make sure you're not out at the same time.
I think this doesn't tend to happen too much on SIDC days. It's if you're with the boy racers - RS's that sort of thing.
Sorry Mike, couldn't resist, it was getting to serious!

pwebb

Stef -
suggest you save your lap-timing and racing antics for go-kart events and suchlike - this is not what trackdays are about, plus very likely invalidates any insurance you may have.
As a neutral observer/passenger on the day, I would say that there were a lot cleaner driven cars on the track than yours - some people evidently manage to drive without putting tyres over kerbs and on the grass.
Don't like the suggestion you were trying to 'race' other cars - or am I reading something in to the above that is not intended?

Alas I am more resolved than ever not to take my car out on a trackday with my fellow SIDC members - recent offs at Oulton/Donington and general attitude + behaviour on the day have been enough to dissuade me.

Maybe I am getting old/boring/whatever but I was not alone in being unimpressed with some of the behaviour on the day.

back on subject....people on this thread seem to be expecting rather too much from their 'road car' standard brakes - track events are extreme - standard brakes are good enough (just) for everyday use but I agree they are inadequate for demanding driving - horses for courses and all that.

cheers,

Paul W