Yex

I've been reading this thread for a while and would like to make a couple of points without people feeling like I am "fuddy".

Donington was my second track day in my Scooby and I am indeed now hooked. I felt, from a purely amateur viewpoint, that the general behaviour was well above average with only one major bone of contention from my inexperienced point of view. On certain occassions there were 5-6 car "trains" going around which were quite close together. This made me think that should one of them have an incident the others could quite easily become involved, hence multiplying any potention car damage quite quickly. However, when I saw these approaching me from behind I managed to pull over in time to let most of them past, those who did not get past the first time were let by ASAP and all drivers waved their thanks.

In defence of Steph, not that he needs it, his driving was good to watch. At one stage I was trying to time my lap so that I followed him down Craner Curves to the Old Hairpin, marvellous entertainment

The whole point of the day is to push your own car to what you believe it's / your limits to be is a safe environment. If you use your mirrors, judge when to pull out on the track, and let quicker drivers go past I found I could create a window where I could drive at my own speed without catching or being caught by others.

The track day is what YOU make of it, and is controlled by the track staff very strictly. I am sure a few "earbashings" were handed out on Saturday, but they were done quietly and those who received them heeded the warning.

Just thought I'd share that lot with you all

Yex

PS: Brake upgrade coming soon

pwebb

guys - first of all - sorry to have dragged this thread way off topic.

last few posts have boosted my confidence in fellow members (including steph) again -
written in a much more reassuring tone with none of the 'my cars faster than yours' bravado I was worried about.
Maybe you will yet see me on the track next year - I will be the one waiting till the red mist has evaporated and nursing an STI 5 (on crappy S-01 tyres) nervously around.

However, I don't accept the assertion that our car's 'road' limits can be learned on the track - what piffle - the surface, camber and general conditions on a track allow much higher speeds... try this on the road and you will be heading for trouble big-time! I think the reverse may be true - try a greasy mini - roundabout at just 30 mph and find out where the scooby's limits really are!

thanks for restoring my faith a little though - guess we are a lot more responsible than some other clubs I (could) mention!

cheers,

Paul W

PS - Steph - no personal attack intended, just worried about the tone that was coming accross (maybe incorrectly interpreted).

Craig H

Paul,
I don't think we were implying a race track is identical to being on road. Just that when something happens you learn how to deal with it, i.e, understeer, oversteer etc. It gives an idea of what would happen on road, whether you're doing 20mph or 70mph.
And get rid of your tyres when you can - they spoil your car big time.
Get on track, get some tuition - you'll love it.

Steve Prockter

Paul.......... I think this is the point:

Question: What is the real definition of a track?

Answer: A one way system without animals on the loose.

If these two generally existed along side each other we wouldn't need to attend trackdays, unfortunately for the most part they don't so we do. And when we do we want to know the following (because we have not been able to find out on the road).

How fast can I go?
Am I the quickest?
At what point do I need to think about hitting the ejector seat, and how do I avoid this thought popping into my mind?.
How hot is HOT?
When does everything blow up?
Is my car the coolest looking?

Also as we are investigating all of the above we want to be wetting ourselves with excitement.

ALL

I am delighted therefore that Stef has posted his times of which I am mightily impressed (sobbing into my boots with jealousy), as we now have a yard stick. I'm clearly just a crap driver, for God Sake I've got all the performance upgrades you can get, there can't be any other excuses.

More statistics from my video footage (for those of you who are interested):
Top speed Donnington straight 120 mph
Top speed into Redgate 105 mph
Top speed into Mcleans 105 mph
Top speed into Coppice 95 mph
Best speed through fastest section of Craner Curves 105mph
Didn't ever use second gear for any corners (3rd or 4th all lap),
Changed gear at about 6000 RPM (for the most part) except into Coppice (on the rev limiter) and at the end of Donnington straight.

I thought most people drove pretty courteously (sorry about the flash on the straight Howard, didn't see the other five cars holding you up oops).

Steve

[This message has been edited by Steve Prockter (edited 23-11-1999).]

Stef

Paul.
Glad that's sorted then!
I can understand how some people see my car going sideways, going over all the kerbs and then coming in with grass everywhere could jump to the conclusion that I was a very erratic driver who didn't give a hoot. I try very hard to remain aware of what cars are close to me, and would not normally attempt a slide if someone was right behind me.
Likewise, I always thank everyone that moves over, a small gesture which really can make someone feel that their actions were appreciated. How many times do you let someone out at a junction who doesn't acknowledge you, leaving you wishing you hadn't bothered?
SIDC trackdays are by far and away the best organised of all the ones I've been to, and the standard of track etiquette is just as good.
No aggressive tone is ever intended either in the way I drive or in anything I say. Obviously a mis-understanding.

Steve.
So you're the 'Phantom Flasher' then eh?
Interesting figures. I don't have anything like that for my laps, as Craner Curves is the only one I've ever bothered to check my speed through. 115 mph was my fastest, and it was at just under 120mph that I bottled out at went over the grass!!!
Like you, I remain in 3rd and 4th most of the time, although I do change into 2nd for the Esses.

By the way, I'm very happy with the brakes.

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 23-11-1999).]

adam99rs

I am here in the States, and just ordered the 4 piston, 330 (or maybe 328mm) Prodrive/Alcon setup that can be found on the P1 - I have heard good things, but anyone driven it yet? Our cars come wit h horrendous 2 pot brakes as found on the STi V2's and I thin 3's - they work well enough on the orad, but 2 stops from 100 to 0 nets you no brakes at all. Anyway, with the kind of times my car can now do, brakes were an absolute necessity. The setup comes with Pagid pads - any thoughts?

I really wanted the Brembos, but they were a bit more than I wanted to spend - I got the Alcon for $1800, inclduing front and rear Goodrich stalinless lines and the pads, as opposed to $2300 for the Brembos, exclusive of lines - I couldn't pass the deal up.

And last - anyone using the Cusco/Mine's lower arm bar? What about the STi or Cusco "fatter" rear links (not sway bar, I guess they aare trailing arms? - anyone? Any benefit?

NITO

Hi Steph,

I read with interest your article on the AP's. I was using the 330mm four pot AP conversion, and have to say that my day was plagued with brake fade. I think the grooved discs are the way to go, as I have cross drilled discs and am a little dissappointed with the brakes to say the least. I went to AP in Coventry too, where they recommended zx compound AP japan pads. These were fitted two weeks before Doningtin and after 2000 miles were already down to 3mm. This obviously didn't help brake fade at Donington. I have now covered about 3000 miles with those pads and they are well past their best. Previous to these pads I had mintex 1144 which were complete crap. I think I will give Pagid a try next time.

By the way I was driving a silver 5dr Prodrive car with STi badging on the rear, did you get any decent footage??

Best wishes,

Marino.

Stef

Marino.

The problem you encountered is, I believe, the exact reason why Scoobymania wanted to avoid cross-drilled discs and use grooved. I encountered absolutely no fade whatsoever all day, and still have 30% left on the pads, which should easily get me through the winter.
I think I was using ZX pads on track, but they may have been ZR's.
At least you know where to go to get new discs now though!
The bjective of the day was to evaluate the new kit and give my opinion on it, in the hope of course that if it was positive other people would show an interest. This seems to have succeeded, as several brake kits in both 16" and 17" guise have been shifted.
I hope all those that have bought/intend to buy the AP kit are as pleased with them as I am.
BTW, I don't actually have any footage of the day, which is why I'm on the scrounge myself!

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 24-11-1999).]

Mike Tuckwood

Stef was <B>'only'</B> using a fast road pad (AP Japan ZX's) and his ABS did not kick in once as far as I am aware the whole day!

We plan to run a track biased pad with Stef next time, Performance Friction Carbon Metallic or Pagid RS 4-2-1 and see how much
better that performs (and it will).

Mike.

NITO

Unfortunately Mike,
I can't use the friction performance carbon metallic pads on my AP discs as they are cross drilled. DO you think I need to change the discs for grooved ones, or just get some decent pagid pads!!

Mike Tuckwood

Nino, Hi.

There are far more factors involved in working out the solution to your current situation than could be covered in a simple reply on the BBS.

Pagid, Performance Friction, Mintex, Ap Etc. all have different and measurable characteristics, suitable for widely differing mechanical and dynamic applications.

Give me a ring at Scooby Mania on 0115 913 3199 or email me on:

johnfelstead

just to give you all a comparison.

1 min 26 is a mega time with standard power.

I manage to do 1 min 28, 2 up in my saphire cossie. My cossie has 350BHP but is running standard size brakes, with some aftermarket 8 groove disks front and rear and ferrodo DS2000 pads.

The brakes on my impreza compared to the cossie are absolute crap, how more impreza's are not written off on the road because of poor brakes is beyond me. Maybe they are!

to give some speed reference i hit 135MPH before braking into the pit straight chicane, so you can see my times are coming from superior top speed, i recon you would be hard pushed to go quicker through the corners, so the brakes must be absolutely awesome on the AP conversion.

Its a pitty subaru dont fit the same spec of brakes standard as was fitted on the 2WD cossie as the car would be so much better.

Clarkey

Stef was clearly taking Craner MUCH faster than everyone else - it takes real ***** at 95mph, let alone 115mph. This had nothing do brakes, just guts.

This was my second track day, and I driving at MY pace, and no one else's. I took the approach of pulling over whenever a faster car appeared in my mirror - I made no effort to stay ahead. This increased my enjoyment, and hopefully that of others. If only the Corrado and Audi S3 had been as courteous.



[This message has been edited by Clarkey (edited 26-11-1999).]

MorayMackenzie

Stef,

Contact Anders, he had some good footage of laps by PC in a 22B and you in a WRC, sorry MY98! You were demonstrating very impressive car control through the footage, which didn't include any spins!

Moray

Stef

John.
I really cannot stress how much of a difference this kit makes. I am still in awe of the fact that I bettered my time by 8 secs! Amazing.

Moray.
I've asked Anders to send me a copy, so I'm looking forward to seeing it.

I went back to AP this morning for an inspection, and everyone was hunky dory. They were very pleased with the performance of the discs, they only lost 0.07mm in width!!!
They were even happier when they found out that I'd done around 100 laps!
I have now got some road pads in, and they are actually using EBC Green Stuff!!!!!
They reckon EBC pads are very good, and recommend green for road use only. They haven't yet tested red or yellow, but told me I should change to red for track use.
If they're good enough for AP.......

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 28-11-1999).]

Mike Rainbird

Stef,
Please keep me posted about the EBC Greenstuff, as these were what was on the back of my car when I did the last track day. Brand new (250miles) down to the metal in ONE twenty minute session.....

They left loads of dust on the wheels (back) and yet the fronts had used only a few mill of pad. I have never used EBC since....
Thanks
Mike

Mike Tuckwood

I have just obtained the wear measurements for Stef's 'activities' at Donington.

Front disc, wear from new, <I>(some of which would be 'runing in' and expected}</I>.

Disc wear .07mm (2.5 thousands of an inch)

There was approx 2mm of pad material left on the pads which were in excellent condition.

This was as result of somewhere in the region of 100 laps, almost non stop of Donington.


Mike R.

Stef now has EBC Greenstuff pads in the front, <B>for road use only!</B> Did you have your hanbrake on?

Mike.

Blow Dog

That is very impressive stuff Stef. Whilst on the track, I allowed you to overtake me (allowed? what the hell am I talking about?) so that I could follow you and your racing line so I could better my own driving by learning from you. It was impossible to try to match your braking though, after 2 corners of trying to, my brakes had smoke coming out of them and the pedals started to feel like trifle.

I use Group 'N' spec discs from Scoobysport and Mintex competition pads fitted at Scoobysport(Can't remember what type)and although my brakes were very competent during the first 3-5 laps, I had to come in straight after because of overheating on the pads and discs.

I was quite dissapointed with this brake set up, normal road use is excrutiating at times, living in London, I am always in gridlock and this results in the discs and pads never reaching their operating temperature so they ALWAYS grind and squeal. As a compromise, I expected them to perform miracles on the track, but they didn't. Admitedly, I was REALLY putting them to the test by braking quite late into the bends, I just dont feel that the £400.00 for the front set of discs was quite justified. I'm not saying that Pete overcharged me or anything, just that they weren't for me.

Now Stef, I was looking at a completely new brake kit and if I was to purchase your kit, is it as good off the track as it is on? For example, do they need to reach a sufficient operating temperature for them to work at best efficiency? Will they grind a lot if they constantly remain relatively cool? (ie. stuck in London traffic half the time) And finally, do you think that by not reaching their optimum operating temerature, you run the risk of wearing the pads out sooner due to glazing?

Thanks for the previous info and I must say, the brakes look real cool when driving. Because of the impreza alloy wheel design, it allows you to see the calipers right through the wheels, looks real nice.

Cem

PS. I have got to say that I thought all Impreza's on the track were very courteous, not one occasion did I find anyone pi.ssing me off. However, I have got to say 'bunch of ar.se' to the guys driving in the race works cars (i think it was the Talbot, or the Lancia). They obviously had a point to prove and by doing so, nearly put me off the track a couple of times because of some very dangerous overtaking manouvers they performed through the S's. I was really hoping that they would be black flagged, they overtook me on the righthand side and used the racing line too, so I had to brake very hard to avoid them and by doing so, put my car off balance and had to correct my stance quite violently. This happened TWICE and I looked for him in the pit lane as I felt a Schumacher attack coming on!

Poor driving I thought by what should have been experienced drivers.

Cem


[This message has been edited by Blow Dog (edited 27-11-1999).]

sunilp

Right, time to spice things up a bit!!!!

No disrespect to absolutely anyone but just trying to keep things exciting

Stef, you upgraded to the AP kit from std Subaru Brakes (i presume). You havent used any other manufacturers kit and think AP is the dogs danglies - i am sure it might well be but your opion is very biased!

I have the SS Brembo kit with std Brembo pads and can get my ABS to kick in whenever desired in the dry. Surely hitting the ABS is a fairly defintive measure of braking power/bite and i can and you cant....ner ner ne ner ner!!

Burn me baby!

Benny Boy

Sunil

It is very very hard to engage the ABS on any braking system on the track. The reason is down to the smooth surface.

A braking system is working less efficiently when the ABS is being used and so if it comes on very regularly for you, you may wish to have the ABS system looked at as you are not using the full capability of your system.

Kind regards

Ben

firefox

Howdy..

I havent got involved with this thread before.. and I wont again...

But I have to say that my ABS came on a few times...

Surely regarding one-off stopping power...your brakes are as good as your ABS system... My belief was that you jumped on the pedal to brake... the pads gripped onto the disks as hard as possible...trying to lock them.. but the ABS stops this.. what I would have thought, was that with better/larger brakes, the time for the ABS to cut in would be less than with crappy brakes ?

Yes uprated brakes will work better, before the ABS cuts in.. the trick is to brake hard enough to stop you.... but not that hard as to bring in the ABS..

The main differences with uprated brakes would be their endurance.... they should easily out perform (not fade, or wear) as much as standard ones...

For ABS to be coming in, you really have to stamp on the pedal.... As my passengers will tell, I was braking from 140+ down to about 20-30mph...I was braking hard!!

Sunil has a point about Steph going from standard to AP... but anyways..

Anyways.. I dont know anything about brakes, except they stop me... well, they better stop me!! lol

I'll say one thing.. Stef certainly set some quick times...

J.

Sam Elassar

hi there
I have been watching this thread with anticipation over the last few days I am really considering upgrading to maybe the AP kit now. However I have just been told that Tarox are making a wait for this.........TEN POT CALIPARS for the impreza to be released in Jan. I’ll try to see if they would let me try them first before buying. what is the chance of all these manufacturers having a second hand kit for you to try for few days before buying, if you are willing to pay for labour. at the end of the day they all cost around £1200 plus vat minimum. which is a lot of money for me, to get it wrong or to build an opinion based on someone else’s.

Sam

Stef

Cem.
On the road, the kit still performs much, much better than my standard brakes used too, and work well immediately. Certainly using the Green Stuff pads anyway, which is one of the benefits of them I understand. I get no dust, and no noise whatsoever, apart from the 'groove' noise whilst braking. It is some of the high performance fast road/track pads that require warming up I believe.

Sunilp.
You're already on fire, so I won't add much more fuel!
Why would you ever want your ABS to come on at will? As already explained, getting the ABS to kick in is NOT a test of a kits ability. I would in fact argue that the opposite is true. I only managed to get mine to come on a couple of times at Donno, and that was early on when it was damp.
Once it dried, I really did stamp on the pedal every time, and was amazed that the ABS never kicked in.
So therfore......ner ner, ner ner ner!!!!!
And you're right, I do have a biased opinion, but I'd like to think that I'm giving an accurate report based on the performance of the kit at Donno. As I've said before anyone with any other set up could have done what I've done, if they were as happy as I am!!

Sam.
Why?
Touring cars 'only' have water-cooled 8-pots and they use four pads per caliper!
How many pads would a ten-pot system have?
There's only so much you need to do. AP also do a large six-pot conversion with differing size pistons (moreso than the four-pot) and these calipers are HUGE!
Sounds like overkill if you ask me.

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 28-11-1999).]

sunilp

Aww.........i expected to cause more controversy than that!!!;0

Anyhow, just went to see "The World is Not Enough"....crap use of the Z8....but as for Denise Richards.....wow! (are they real??)

Lee

At Donington I was braking from 120MPH down to 20MPH and literally exerting every bit of force I could on the pedal.

I did not activate the ABS once.

MY99 4-pot brakes.

Stopping power was good, but fade was bad..

Mike Tuckwood

I have seen a caliper with ten pistons and it was the Tarox one. Looked like a marketing gimmick to me.

It makes no mechanical sense?

5 equal sized tiny pistons and there is NO WAY that would fit on an Impreza.

(Unless you know somebody who has a 20" wheel fitted).

Mike.

Sam Elassar

mike
thats very interesting. as i said i have been told that they will fit the impreza. but the person who told me could easily be wrong. however we will find out soon anyway, as they are going to be released in Jan. ok ok they may not be as good as the MIGHTY AP kit, but you have to admit that it must be good kit and if they could fit the impreza that will be an extra bonus. also i like the way 10pot sounds. at the end of the day it all boils down to value for money and performance. i am sure most of us work hard for our money and are not going to through it way on something that is not going to make much noticable difference. back box excluded, but off course

[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 29-11-1999).]

Stef

Sam.
Any money spent on any decent brake upgrade is money very well spent, that much I can assure you.

Stef.

Stef

Just a liitle note to let everyone know that the brakes are still performaing very, very well, and the EBC Green Stuff pads are coping well too.
I will be putting Yellow Stuff in for Donington though.
It was quite funny at the Motorsport Show a couple of weeks ago...I was chatting to the guys on the EBC stand, telling them about the Green Stuff, and how I wanted to use Yellows for track use.
"You won't need those!", he said. "Red Stuff will be more than able to cope. How many laps do you do?" he asked.
"Oh, about 100 odd" I replied.
They looked at each other..."Yellow Stuff!" they both said together.
I guess you had to be there.

Stef.

Mike Rainbird

Stef,
Who are you getting your EBC Yellow stuff through, how much and does EBC do it for the CP5200 calliper yet? (Can't have you having any advantage ).
Thanks
Mike