Dave T-S

Dennis
Yep, I agree too. But I know exactly what is in the PPP, have had feedback from those that have been in Prodrive's demonstrator, haven't coughed up any money up front, and trust Mike Wood 101%

As far as official feedback is concerned, after the waiting list with the MY01 WRX PPP the STi PPP will NOT be released until there are a number of kits in stock, and hyping up the product (tell the public very little, and let the interest build up on here - and it seems to have worked) plus make people put their names on waiting lists will give Prodrive an idea of how many kits are required up front.

[Edited by Dave T-S - 8/2/2002 7:40:26 PM]

Neil Smalley

Pooder


Andy, Agreed. I noticed the same thing while doing a test drive. It did seem to take ages to get going, and was a big shock compared to my PPP'd MY00.

After having an STI for 4000 odd miles now i'm convinced that it's a faster car than my old PPP MY00 and a lot more fun to drive(for me). The only reason i'm considering a PPP for the STI is to improve the <4K response time and not to make the car go faster. It's fast enough already.

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 8/3/2002 6:47:03 AM]

scoobycar60

IMHO I and a lot of other UKSTI owners think all this PPP lark on an STI is a bit of a con, the UK type version effectively costs more for less performance, the warrenty is v important to me as from personnal experience I know how much it costs to sort things out when scooby engines go bang.
The main competition for the new STI is the evo7, the scooby needs the PPP to be on anything like a level playing field with this in standard trim. Like the EVO7 "300" version you should be able to by the car with the 300 odd BHP hinted at without all this messing about, most of us bought the car with our hearts, not our heads and a couple of grand extra for the uprated version would not have put me off.
As for what if? senarios with respect to warranties and mods IMHO most after market warranties are not worth the paper they are printed on when things go badly wrong modified = no warranty
I know many respected tuners will bleat on and on about how wrong this is but face facts in the real world that is the score. Highly stressed little 2 litres will on occasion go bang and I want the peace of mind if I have played by IM's rules they will look after me.


[Edited by scoobycar60 - 8/3/2002 10:22:13 PM]

Dave T-S

scoobycar60



Wake up - nobody is forcing you to buy the STi.

Nobody is forcing you to buy the PPP for it either.

If you think an EVO7 is better, buy an EVO7.......

Oh, and the reason you can't get a UK STi with close to 300bhp from the factory is because it wouldn't pass EU Whole Vehicle Type Approval, or the Euro 3/4 emissions regs, so couldn't be sold in the UK, so you wouldn't have the 3 year warranty amongst other things.

You can, of course, import a JDM car....you pays your money etc.

[Edited by Dave T-S - 8/4/2002 8:32:00 AM]

Dave T-S

Dennis
Fair comment. And I wish I could post what I know, but I can't.

I just got a bit annoyed to get up and find about four threads seemingly knocking the PPP/Prodrive/IM, which I thought was a bit unfair

I will however mention to Mike Wood at Prodrive tomorrow that the natives are getting a bit restless

Re smilies, see here http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smilies.html for starters

[Edited by Dave T-S - 8/4/2002 1:29:02 PM]

Andrewza

Is is me or have they done this with every PPP? Too much to ask to walk into a dealer, ask about it, receive correct information, place an order and get a realistic installation date?

The dealers know it's coming, know it'll sell, but seem intent on stringing people along, I'd prefer an honest "We don't know" to "Oh 4-6 weeks sir"

[Edited by Andrewza - 8/4/2002 3:46:00 PM]

wacky.banana

Dave,

How did your converstaion with Mike today go then re restless natives (now lets see if this smiley malarky works)

WB

Blood & sand, it did! No holding me back now!

[Edited by wacky.banana - 8/5/2002 2:31:29 PM]

Dave T-S

Pete
Damn You know me better than I thought

Anyone want to buy a just run in STi, one careful owner?

PS - Re you knowing all about the STi PPP for some time, didn't you tell me a few weeks back it had been canned?

[Edited by Dave T-S - 8/6/2002 9:14:56 PM]

Dave T-S

I do actually find these PPP threads quite funny, but it is clear some people do not share my sense of humour It's interesting to step outside them and look inwards once in a while.

Yes, I probably have been doing a bit of a Pete Lewis, can't help it

The really funny thing is, as we are in the middle of moving house, budget wise I am not bothered if the PPP is another couple of months

Also, in the great scheme of things, I am probably a bit more bothered by the state of the health service, the fact that we are expecting to have 250,000 immigrants a year entering Britain, and the fact that our present government are a joke

Let's just keep it all in perspective guys.........

[Edited by Dave T-S - 8/6/2002 9:55:42 PM]

Neil Smalley

You can take Dave out of the muppet forum, but not the muppet forum out of Dave...



[Edited by Neil Smalley - 8/7/2002 9:21:14 AM]

Dave T-S

LOL at Neil (as always )

Something in the Essex water supply methinks......

[Edited by Dave T-S - 8/7/2002 10:36:48 AM]

wacky.banana

Been reading the various threads on this over the past few months. It strikes me as curious that not only is information from official sources seemingly hard to come by but STi owners are prepared to stump up funding for something that has yet to make it into the public domain or be tried and tested by that public.

This thread is not about slagging off those of you who have made the choice to purchase, nor have I got an axe to grind against Prodrive (or any other tuner for that matter).

My point is this: If I was buying a house (bad example but hear me out), I would NOT take the word of the seller that it was allright, and shell out tons of dosh, without seeing the evidence and/or getting it verified such that I was comfortable that I was getting exactly "what it says on the tin". Yet we think nothing of considering spending circa £2K on a product that we are led to believe delivers circa 300bhp (torque delivery figures unknown by me), and where it appears that information from official sources is pretty hard to come by.

If I was in the market for an upgrade such as this (I am but will be pursuing an alternative strategy when I have saved enough dosh in my piggy bank) I would, as a minimum, want to:

- See hard evidence.

- Try out the upgrade for myself on a demo car (as part of the buy/don't buy decision process).

- Get a guarantee that the application will work and deliver what it says on the tin on my own car before committing to buy.

- Ask for the option of my money back if I was not satified, ie if the upgrade did not deliver exactly as promised.

If I could not get a tuner to agree to any/all the above I would walk away and hold on to my hard earned cash.

I'm interested in CONSTRUCTIVE views on this subject. Question is: do we let the tuning community off the hook too lightly because we want to believe the power/torque mantras thrown at us?

Cheers

WB

Neil Smalley

WB

I agree.
I'm pretty sure I know whats in it and what the various outputs are. But I need to know for sure before parting(or even budgeting) any money for it.

Also i'm questioning the real need for it, in the real world. It's not as though the STI is slow is it.

One thing that does concern me, is that the dealers who fit the first one may not be as a experienced with the early ones as they are later on. There have, allegedly been a couple of examples of MY01 PPP fitting that was'nt quite optimal. Thus giving the car less power and torque than it should have. Put it like this, I would rather pay a 100 quid more and have prodrive do it and underwrite the work than be the first car a dealer has seen to have it fitted.

No slight on dealers of course, but I don't like being the first to try anything out.

Big Goon

I do have faith in Prodrive to deliver the goods, but after seeing a WRX PPP car fall way short of the mark at a P.E rolling road day I would like to see the benefits of STi PPP on paper as well as on the road.
I will be bombing my car up to P.E once my PPP work has been done to make sure I get what I paid for.

mutant_matt

WB,

I agree that I would never put down a deposit for something that is an unknown quantity. I also want to demo a car that had it before making up my mind.

However, if you commit to buying it, I wouldn't expect them to take it back if I subsequently decided I didn't want it.

Also, there is no way you could use a PR RR printout to argue that the upgrade is not as advertised, as there are too many variables involved in Dynos.

Matt

P.S. I've seen loads of PPP's on PE's rollers and none of them have been less then expected!

Andrewza

WB,
I pretty much asked this on one of the other threads, lots of people seem to have ordered and possibly put down cash without any actual official confirmation on what it'll get you.

General rumours including:

- new ECU
- some new exahust, possibly centre and backbox, though somebody said downpipe
- intercooler piping?

Award for most ludicrous rumour has to go to the person who suggested the prodrive wing for the non-prodrive version

and to be honest, I don't care what they change. Just give me some official figures dammit, BHP, Torque and more importantly WHERE?

I probably will buy it yes, but I would like to know what exactly it will get me and preferably have a test drive in a car with it on.

chrisp

The problem you guys have is that once its release everyone will want it, just like the MY01 PPP. So do you stick your name down and get one first or do you play it cool and have to wait months at the back of the queue.

So the rumour is 40bhp increase so thats about 25bhp/ton increase giving about 205bhp/ton its getting there, another 15bhp/ton and I might be tempted .

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Actually one of the main reasons I didn't buy an STI was because, below 4k revs, the engine felt gutless compared to my PPP-equipped MY00. Now, I know that the engine loosens up with age, but even so, I was expecting a greater spread of torque and better flexibility. Extracting the car's potential felt like hard work.

Previous PPPs have always focused on increasing driv(e?)ability and improving the spread of torque rather than just increasing the peak power output. That's exactly what the STI needs, IMHO.

I decided to stick with my car for now. If I feel the need for a replacement in a year or two then I'll definitely be looking for a PPP-equipped STI to replace it. If the PPP doesn't turn out to completely fix the engine's rev-happy nature, though, I'll get a TVR instead

Andy.

Andrewza

I know lets all just lynch Dave for knowing too much

Neil Smalley

Agreed about the <4K revs thing. However, in the scheme of things its NOT a slow car by any means.

Also the STI demands you drive correctly in that you should select the appropriate gear before the manuvere/corner rather than half way through and having to change up.

chrisp

He doesnt know how to spell or type though, he had to edit his last post to get rid of the typos .

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Where I noticed the problem most was around town - pulling away from lights, onto roundabouts, into gaps in traffic. Under those circumstances - first and second gear stuff - the STI was slow compared to my own car. Leaving the dealer and heading out of town, I actively preferred my MY00. I smiled to myself as I'd just saved ten grand (which I later blew on a Westfield, but that's another story!)

I've no doubt that, on the open road and with a selection of gears to choose from, that the STI is extremely rapid. It's just that its relatively narrow power band doesn't suit me too well, hence my comments about the PPP, which I'll be reading about with interest. I really wanted to like the STI, and I might do yet.

I'm sure Dave & Carolyn will be changing theirs in a year or two - could you guys fit a set of the new 7-spoke Prodrive wheels to the black car please? You might just get a buyer

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

I think if they had 500 PPP kits Today they'd would be sold out by September And if Mike Wood could make a 1000 or so by waving a magic wand he'd change his name to Paul Daniels LOL

Tony

Pooder

Neil
Are you having a go at me
Steve

Dave T-S

LOL - you lot are SO cruel to me

I'll get me rope........

STI MAN

So who's had to stump up cash for the PPP then? I asked the dealer to fit it to both the STi's and i've not been asked to pay anything up front.

Pooder

Niel
See my thread STI handling and you will understand my comment-no
offence meant.
People who are not impressed with this cars performance need to drive one with at least 4000 miles on it the difference between
1000 miles and 4000 miles is staggering-anyone else finding this??
Steve

ids

Steve,

I agree... mines now got 4500 on the clock and gets better and better. I only have three areas of complaint...

1) Brakes - Damn throw off some dust.... and find they either squeal or knock at slow speed.
2) Anoying rattle by my right ear....
3) Bloody crap OEM radio. Why the hell a 26K + car has such crap as standard is beyond me.

Anyone else have these (esepcially the brakes..) ?

The rest of the car is awesome and will be even better hopefully if Subaru ever release the PPP. The way they are going the new model will be out.

Ids

GDBSTi

Some news from South Africa on STi 7 PPP
Dyno results!!!!

Unfortunately still no rpm values

Minimum increases in torque = 26 lb ft and power 27 BHP using 93RON fuel (maximum grade fuel in Johannesburg!!!)

Also bear in mind our car is Australian Spec STi7's

wacky.banana

All,

Some very good responses here. I'll pick up on a few as follows:

Mutant Matt: I agree that there are a number of variables with rolling roads and therefore it might be difficult to prove that the conversion was not fit for purpose. However if you believe the rumours of a 40BHP increase on the 265 the car has got, I make that a 15% increase. Now no matter what the variables may be I would want to see the conversion outputs on my car to be within 10% of the advertised figure , else I would have a problem with it.

My humble view is that it is down to the tuning industry to prove to me, the paying customer, that I'm getting what I'm paying for, not the other way around (smiley here).

If I buy a gallon of petrol, I expect exactly that, not an excuse that because I bought it today, its slightly different in size to the same gallon I bought last week due to, say, atmospheric pressure (you get my drift, another smiley here)!

Andy C: Totally agree with you, the torque band needs moving down the rev range and/or a better spread of torque is required. Having ditched my centre cat and put a group N back box on I can't half tell the difference! BTW, you need to give the car plenty of welly when moving off, or in the circumstances you describe, else you are going nowhere fast. To be fair the car is a totally different drive to a classic scooby. It also gets better the more miles you put in.

Neil Smalley: Again I agree ,the car isn't slow, just needs more torque. With that extra torque there won't be the need to work the gearbox as much, which can be a pain in the butt when trying to make rapid progress on tight country lanes.

To widen the debate further, if you guys weren't tied to IM warranties, would you go for the PPP by choice or would you choose some other upgrade option? If the latter what would you go for?

The answers should make interesting reading, ie should prove by how much being tied in is driving your upgrade buying decisions (or not, as the case may be).

Cheers

WB