camk

Your all mad, when was the last time you head someone say ooohhh never warmed her up this morning and I've cracked a Piston Ring on any road car. Just start the thing and drive it, Subaru and all the other manufacturers test all this crap and at much more extreme conditions than you'll get in the UK. Just bloody get in and drive or is the whole engine made of Chocolate. So much for the infamous reliability, no wonder the owners wrap the cars in cotton wool.

Regards
Cammy

[This message has been edited by camk (edited 04 May 2001).]

DavidLewis

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stef:
<B>I've just had auto-start fitted to my alarm and it's a godsend!
15 mins before I leave I just push a little button and listen as CK 1 burbles into life.
The doors are still locked, the alarm is still armed, and the steering wheel lock is still in place.
Stef.[/quote]

But a bugger if you've got a Barrier Deadlock fitted

mutant_matt

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by camk:
<B>Your all mad, when was the last time you head someone say ooohhh never warmed her up this morning and I've cracked a Piston Ring on any road car. Just start the thing and drive it, Subaru and all the other manufacturers test all this crap and at much more extreme conditions than you'll get in the UK. Just bloody get in and drive or is the whole engine made of Chocolate. So much for the infamous reliability, no wonder the owners wrap the cars in cotton wool.[/quote]

Cammy, OK, the last time I heard this happening was, let me see.....a couple of months ago - what was the problem - MY98, crank went bang. The driver in question gets in his car and usually just starts it up and drives it (hard) from the off. He doesn't warm it down either - he's not done too many miles either so you figure it out.

It's not that the engines are made of chocolate, it's called the laws of physics and no amount of new technology is going to overcome that until we start making engines and oil out of something else.....It's not exclusive to Scoobies either, all cars need to be warmed up properly if you want long term reliability....turbo engines just need this kind of care even more. Of course, if you don't care about the car, don't have to pay the bills (company car) or don't plan on owning it more than say 1 year then I guess you can afford to ignore the good advice above.

Matt

mutant_matt

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stef:
<B>I've just had auto-start fitted to my alarm and it's a godsend!
15 mins before I leave I just push a little button and listen as CK 1 burbles into life.
The doors are still locked, the alarm is still armed, and the steering wheel lock is still in place.
Only a muppet would try and get into it still.
It runs for 15mins and then goes off anyway;
[/quote]

Stef, what happens if someone was to break in at this time? Would the alarm immobilise the engine? Also, when you get in, presumably you have to immobilise the alarm in the usual way, do you then have to "start" the car with the key also?

Just curious,

Matt

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Dave,

That's exactly what I thinking!! I suppose you can not use the Barrier Dealock and get a refused insurance claim!!!

Don't the alarm starting methods invalidate your Thatcham 1 criteria on your alarm??! Also isn't it illegal to leave the car running and unattented on a road?? (Obviously ok in a garage)

Andy

Gastro

I think Camk is spot on - just drive it straight away !!
You can do more damage/increase wear and tear by letting the engine warm up from cold on idle......'cos it takes longer and hence the engine is running for longer without optimal oil temperature etc.

Gastro

mutant_matt

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Andy Tang:
<B>Also isn't it illegal to leave the car running and unattended on a road?? (Obviously ok in a garage)[/quote]

Tango, in short, yes!!!

I've often wondered about this, imagine you get "pulled" on the motorway. You've been travelling at 70 which means that you've been on-boost (if only a bit) constantly. You're on the hard shoulder and the nice Police man walks up to your window:

COP: "Could you please turn your vehicle off and step out please"

YOU: "Sorry, but I can't turn it off as it will damage the engine/oil/turbo"

That's gonna impress him right??? - NOT!!!

What do you say?? "If you "authorise" me to get out whilst the engine is still running (and hence commit a crime??) I will step out...

Any thoughts? Stuart H?? Same problem with a Turbo Timer right??

Matt

[This message has been edited by mutant_matt (edited 04 May 2001).]

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

I believe it is also illegal to leave a car idling unattended...on a public highway probably only though.

Also will your alarm still try and start the car if your wife left it in gear?

I get in start the car, then find the stereo front and stick that in and take my coat off etc then drive off and keep below 3000rpm until water temp is normal.
Why is it that everyone wants to race me whilst I am having to keep it under 3000rpm though? never once fully warm do I get a challenge... perhaps they see the smoking exhaust and think "Quick challenge him now he is warming it up we might have a chance?"

I do the reverse when I stop, remove stereo front, wind up window, put on coat etc..
My wife hates me idling the car when we get home too... out of habit I end up doing it in her car to which doesn't even have a turbo... doh...
But it is for the best and she can moan all she likes but she'd be moaning even more at the engine repair bill I am sure.

ho ho JGM

Mad Max

Hi everyone...

As everyone knows by now (If you don't you haven't been listening ), my scooby will be delivered by the end of the month.

I'm not much of a mechanic, but I have enough basic knowledge to understand a few concepts like:

1) Idling the engine for some time after a "hard" run. It's logical, because the Turbo runs VERY hot, and when you stop the engine the oil punp stops working. This means that the oil around the Turbo might "fry", losing it's lubricant capabilities... + The turbo might get too hot, since it's not lubrified, and be damaged.

2) Now driving "hard" from cold... Logical, because the oil hasen't reached the temperature where it works best, and therefore it's not doing it's job yet. + Heat expands most matherials, and different parts of the engine expand at different speeds. If it warms up too fast, some component might expand too fast than the ones around it, and severely damage the engine.

Question ? How usefull is it to idle the engine for e little time from cold before going? Logic would say that it's good, but is it worth the effort ? I say this because I'm always late, and therefore I usually start the car, and drive right off... Slow, of course, because it's cold, but I don't idle it ... Advice ? Opinions ? What do YOU do ?

Thanks

Max

chuckster

Walk out the door, open it, start it, sort out the music, the shades, open window, perch arm on window, adjust hair in mirror, * drive off and keep the revs low for a while * , of course driving slowly to start allows people to look at me
Seriously I try to idle as long as possible, but like you don't leave it for minutes, so just keep things calm for a few miles.
Regards
Chuck
ps a few minutes off boost driving after a blast allows much better cooling than just pulling up and letting it idle for 5 mins.

[This message has been edited by chuckster (edited 04 May 2001).]

chiark

"Chuck speaks with reason" shocker!

I have the same dilemma after moving house. I have to join a verrry busy road at 40mph around 300 metres from my house - and it's a right turn to join, so I have to cross a lane of traffic... Gaps are miniscule, and does anyone let you out? (well, apart from one new Mondeo yesterday - thank you, my faith in humanity is restored)

Consequently, I let the car idle for 5 mins on the drive with me in/right next to it.

The water temp is "normal" by then, but oil pressure is still in the 90PSI range when idling (stone cold idle is 100PSI+, hot idle appears to be 35ish). Haven't wired up the oil temp gauge, so can't tell you what that's reading... Next service due next month so the sender will be fitted then!

Note that insurance companies take a dim view of cars stolen when idling unaccompanied, to the extent that they can and do refuse to pay out.

Dilemma. I suppose I could drive around the crescent 20 times...

brickboy

Typically, oil's got round all parts of the engine after 10 - 15 seconds of idling, even from stony cold, so you can move off safely then. As Chuckster said, start it then sort the rest out. Best to try and keep it away from high boost (ideally below about 3000rpm) until you've done a mile or two. I try to not exceed 3500 rpm / use big throttle until I've done five miles from cold.

Cooling down after a run, if like me you have to drive 2 miles at 30 or less to get to your house, then no problem. The biggest danger is caning it down a motorway, diving into the services and switching off straight away. Always give it a minute or so idling in those circumstances.

What *is* worth doing is always letting it settle to a steady idle for 10 seconds or so before switching off, under any circumstances. Annoys the sh*t out of my wife, but she puts up with it ;-)

Andy Porter

What about Auto start on your alarm ?
If you can add this, I would. I can start the car whilst eating my cornflakes, in the confidence that the doors are still locked
Andyp

Mad Max

Ok, thanks for the advice guys... That's exactly what I was thinking, and what I usually do... 15 Sec or so in the morning, never going over 3000 rpm for the first 3-4 km, no full throttle either... By then, I'm in traffic anyway, so it's useless... After crossing the bridge, I can OPEN UP, since I've been sitting in the car for the last 10 min to get to the damn bridge...

Always idle for a little while, especially after fast motorway drives... 1 min or so. If I get home slow, then I idle it less time, but try to let it stay at least 10-15 seconds anyway.

On weekends, I will let it idle a while longer... I have time to spare (no kids yet )

Hey, I don't get the "Start slow so people can see me" part... It's either woman that look at you (and they usually have no idea what you're driving) or men, and why the hell would you want them to look at you ... Ok, ok, I was joking... Do as you please.

Thanks for the advice anyway...

Max

24 days ... I hope

Mad Max

My car sleeps outside, and here in portugal you can guive NO EXCUSES for someone to break a window and take off with your pride and joy... I'm scared enough that I won't GET there on time the day the alarm goes off (And it takes me 30 seconds to get there...)
So, no start-up in the alarm... Defenatly !

Stef

I've just had auto-start fitted to my alarm and it's a godsend!
15 mins before I leave I just push a little button and listen as CK 1 burbles into life.
The doors are still locked, the alarm is still armed, and the steering wheel lock is still in place.
Only a muppet would try and get into it still.
It runs for 15mins and then goes off anyway;

Stef.

Mad Max

How does your insurance feel about that ?

What brand is your alarm ? How hard is that to fit ?(Professionalism isn't one of portuguese's best qualities

Max

Jza

Hang on a minute folks.

I thought the idea of "warming" the engine was so that the oil gets to the operating temperature and completely covers the engine internals. At least that was the idea with non-synthetic oil.

But we now pay £30 for our fully synthetic oil which i understand is good from the go - it doesnt need warming like old oil did. So theoretically you dont need to warm the car - and thats just something we do 'cause our dads told us to when we were kids?

Please correct me if im wrong (i still take it easy for a mile anyway) but arent fully synthetic oils not dependant on being warmed to function properly???

Jza

Mad Max

Even if that's true about oil (And I'm not saying it is or it's not), metal still expands with heat... Now, imagine the damage you could do it a piston expands faster than it's chamber ?

Take it slow, so that the entire engine warms smoothly :-)

bennetm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by chuckster:
<B>Walk out the door, open it, start it, sort out the music, the shades, open window, perch arm on window, adjust hair in mirror, * drive off and keep the revs low for a while * , of course driving slowly to start allows people to look at me
Seriously I try to idle as long as possible, but like you don't leave it for minutes, so just keep things calm for a few miles.
Regards
Chuck
ps a few minutes off boost driving after a blast allows much better cooling than just pulling up and letting it idle for 5 mins.

[This message has been edited by chuckster (edited 04 May 2001).][/quote]

If only I had a 22B.... Lucky bugger!

Dave T-S

My start up procedure:

Get in car.
Lock doors.
Start engine.
Drive off.
Drive leisurely cos i've got a 15 minute headstart on CK1 LOL

AlexM

Hi,

Warming the car up by idling is a bad idea.

The water vapour produced by combustion when the engine is cold mixes with combustion byproducts to produce a fairly strong acidic mixture which attacks the inside of your engine. Not sure, but I think it is Nitric Acid!.

You can reduce this to a minimum by starting the car and then driving off normally to bring the engine up to temperature as soon as possible. I don't mean thrashing it to warm it up quickly - simply that the engine will reach operating temperature much more quickly than by idling (2-3 mins vs. 10ish).

Idling for 15-20 secs to ensure that oil is fully circulated and that the pressure is stable before driving off is also an excellent idea. Start the engine and then do your seatbelt, radio, mirrors etc before pulling away.

P.S. Audi 5 Cylinder engines were well known for cracking the exhaust manifold if the driver was unsympathetic with the car when it was cold.. differentials in the expansion coefficients of different metals.

The same priciple applies wherever dissimilar metals are used together

P.P.S yes - synthetic oils do need to warm up too!.

Cheers,

Alex

Mad Max

Taking the p*ss at all of you guys... :-))

It's very professional to write down startup procedures... It can't hurt, since Airplane and space shuttle pilots do it ... (Sorry, couldn't resist ).

Ok, I think I got most of the juice out of this oranga... My conclusions (MINE, you don't have to agree).

1) Nobody seems to agrue that 1 min idle AFTER hard driving is the best you can do to your car. If you drive slow for about a minute getting home (Really, no pretending !) this has about the same effect... Idle 10 secs and you can stop.

2) Timmer startup and stop is ok, I guess, but the law doesn't like it AT ALL, therefore if you want to keep out of trouble, wake up early... What's 5 min ?

3) Here is the icky point: Startup... Yes, this was my main question . From what I gather, there might be some inconvenients of Idling too long from cold... If you're really carefull about your revs, you should be ok if you idle 15 secs (checklist time ) and drive away in a controlled manner (Not sideways controlled ).

Thanks for your help everyone... And please, don't go at it with eachother for too long... Of course that if once you HAVE to go fast from cold, it won't kill your engine... Same thing for stopping. This is a general behaviour we should have, not a life and death decision...

Max

camk

MutantMatt,
So one incident of a crank going in an MY98 proves that your car will fall apart if you do this, what about the possibility of a bad crank or poor maintenance.
My neighbour here works for Opel and part of his job is supervising destructive testing, The stories he tells me of what they do to cars and engines would make your hair grey relating to cold operating(-40oC engine start and full load for 5 minutes then stop, cool again to -40 and repeat for days on end). They strip it down and then measure the wear on each individual part. Jumping in and driving off is nothing in comparison, by your theory then people in cold countries wouldn't be able to even start their car as the tolerances would need to be so wide that once warm it'd be like a bag of spanners. I know from my time in Sweden that many outside car parks have electric attachments to heat the engine for you coming back, but people still park on the street. I don't doubt there is something in it relating to not going from 0 -120 out your driveway and letting it cool down on track days but running on idle for 10 minutes just to make it OK to drive. Even if it was only to clear the frost on the windows then it would make more sense. Plus its crap for the environment and your fuel economy.

Regards
Cammy

mutant_matt

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by camk:
<B>So one incident of a crank going in an MY98 proves that your car will fall apart if you do this, what about the possibility of a bad crank or poor maintenance.[/quote]

Cammy, I didn't say it proved anything - you just asked for an example which I gave you. I pointed out that the car in question is treated in a manor probably not conducive to long term health and possibly to back that up, it's had to have a new crank within two years of it's life with average mileage (and it's been properly maintained by a main dealer).....

I'm no expert and haven't pretended otherwise - I was just trying to point out that a little precaution is IMHO a good idea. Your neighbour via his job was obviously "abusing" engines in relative terms until (presumably) they started to break. How much abuse an engine will put up with and for how long is the fairly unknown factor - which is why I treat my car as best as possible to try and keep it healthy as long as possible.

Matt

sickboy

...plus running a car at idle to warm it up is about the worst thing you can do.

nasty acidic combustion products damaging the engine....

Get a life- get in and drive- "sympathetically" until it is at operating temp.

DOH!

Mad Max

Cammy, look at it this way: If your kid drops his ice-cream on the floor, you're still gonna tell him not to pick it up, even though 99.9% of the time all he'll get is a bunch of dust on it... He won't even be sick, but just in case, you won't let him eat that ice-cream... Can't harm to idle the car a few seconds (Ok, 10 min is overdoing it), and drive slow for the first 2-3 miles.

Andy Porter

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mutant_matt:
<B> Stef, what happens if someone was to break in at this time? Would the alarm immobilise the engine? Also, when you get in, presumably you have to immobilise the alarm in the usual way, do you then have to "start" the car with the key also?

Just curious,

Hi Matt,
The immobiliser is actually still on when auto start has started the car.
You have to unlock the car, then get in and turn the keys in the ignition to go anywhere.
If you tried to drive of :
A) The steering lock will cut in
b) If you touch the brake the car dies

It does not affect the Cat 1 status as the immobiliser is on until you get in....

My alarm is a Clifford, it was about £280 extra, which I thought was reasonable.

I have had some hilarious moments scaring nosey kids or old fogies

As for the illegal on the road bit, bothered.

Andyp

Matt [/quote]

n1ckr

My 2 cents worth.

I was told to treat warming up in a similar way to running an engine in.

When I ran my new cam in 2000 rpm was optimum, cams did'nt sit on lobes for too long, and not too much force on the ramps at that rpm, idle is nearly as bad as high rpm when it comes to running a cam in.

This is what I do.

Leave the engine at high tickover to warm up, then when the gauge starts to move, start driving at low rpm (l would say pre boost but my car is only a 205 GTi), then gradually allow higher rpm as the engine temp rises. Just remember not to let that turbo spool until the engine is warm, as they are more delicate than your engine.

Cooling is a case of the more time the better, but again, gradually, as I have seen engines left running after a thrash let go, because they have not had enough air flow to allow them to cool. Driving around in circles at 2000 rpm until the temps reach normal would be best.

[This message has been edited by n1ckr (edited 04 May 2001).]

camk

Matt/Max,
Agree on both your last points however if the kid drops the ice cream in the back seat before the engine is fully warmed up then its likely to have a bad effect on his health .

Cheers and All the Best
Cammy