LDA

hey all,

i'm new to the forum but know a few of you scooby drivers.

i'm trying to do a quick feasability check on a potential project i'd like to do over the winter.

this might sound a bit mad but soemone's got to do it or the world would be a boring place.

the information i need is the phisical dimentions of the flat 4 lump and box. basic w,h,l will do for now. also the wheel base and lengeth would be useful.
oh and also the distance from the front of the engine to the front drive shafts.

the project.
take this car
1992 alfa romeo 33 permanent 4 16v 1.7 flat 4.
stick the subaru flat 4 2.0 lump and box in the car and turn the boost up to about 280bhp.
the alfa running gear isnt up to much above 210bhp so i would like to swap the whole lot. i intend to use a normal low spec wrx that has been crashed. jap or uk spec not really fussed.

looking by eye the blocks are very similar sizes so i hope there wont be too many probs there. but the drive and prop shafts are going to be a pain i think.

thanks in advance for anyhelp and i'm open to any new ideas for the project.

Luke.

911

I would say this is very feasible.
Engine size is probably much the same, they are 2000cc afterall.
I think your issue will be:
Engine mounts
turbo /exhaust
driveshaft adaptation front and back
possibly shift linkage as i think the scooby box is probably longer.
Every wire connector you can think off.

As to sizes:

If you check the Scooby books you will find a photo of the running gear that once was shown at some motor show some where. Plan view of everything you want to measure.
As you want approx dimensions only, photcopy the pic as big as you can go. You know the wheel/tyres are 620mm diameter.
Use that size to 'scale' the engine size, trans dimensions etc and you can see if you are on the right track. May sound silly, but it will work!

Some years ago I spent (too much) time fitting V8's and Jag suspension into 1930's hot rods, you will be amazed at what can be made to fit.

Good luck!

911

LDA

thanks for that.
i'l go looking for the image now!

i knew the whole loom was going to be hard work but its not the first one i've done so fingers crossed i wont get it too wrong.

making the mounts for everything is going to be the hard part i think. suspension, engine, box, diffs etc. its all going to need custom welded parts. but as the cars are similar in size and shape i dont think its the hardest convertion ever.

i'm defo going to need a custom exhaust manifold and whole system but thats not really a problem.
hmm now just to find a bent scooby, pick the tree out the side of it and get welding

thanks again

L.

Pavlo

I don't think you will need a custom ex manifold, and the engine mounts are dead easy to cope with.

Dyney

Luke,
Where in Sussex are you?
I might be able to help

LDA

Burgess Hill, about 10 miles north of brighton.
been christmas shopping for a scooby today but didnt find one worth using as a doner car yet. either blown engines or blown everything and bent everything else from crashes

i'm also still on the lookout for an alfa cr as a base for the project. i dont want to cut my mint one up for some crazy engine transplant.

for all you that are not familier with the alfa 33, here is mine. its a 4wd 1.7 flat 4 16v quad cam. they are NA and produce around 137bhp as stock. they handle really well and the steering feedback is very impressive even with powersteering.


also on my searching around the net i've found i'm not the first person to stick a scooby lump in a 33. so now i know it can be done its just a matter of getting started i think.

L.

Dyney

Luke, I sent you a mail aftre I posted on the 3rd.

I'm in Horsham, if you need to take a few measurements and have a look over a scoob for potential problems let me know

LDA

ok so engine choosing time is upon me.


i have been told that the uk spec engines are much harder to tune up as they are lower power to start with. so i'm after a jap spec lump. but what one?

my target power is still only 280bhp. i think (please correct me if i'm wrong here) some of the jap spec lumps were 240hp anyway so another 40 shouldnt be too much of a problem for the engine.

any thing i need to look out for when listening to running scooby lumps? do they suffer from low oil pressure in old age? or anythign else?
are they interfearance heads? i.e. if i found a car with a snapped timing belt, will all the vlaves be shot too?

what other parts should be upgraded to run a safe 280hp? is the turbo ok at this power? how much more boost does it normally take to get this much power out of the scooby? can the pistons take it?

the normal filter, exhaust, intercooler, fuel pump and boost hike will be done. but have i missed something to be able to run a safe 280bhp?

also has anyone got any links to where i can get the RWD conversion kit for the scooby box? i know there is a now a kit to do this, i just need to find it.

Dyney,
thanks for your help in the back end of last year. i never did find my way to that garage in the middle of no where got lost, ran out of fuel and ran out of phone battery too. what a day.

cheers

L.

ScoobyDoo69

iTrader: (17)

i believe any turbo scooby engine is more than up to the job of 280bhp reliably. for most its as simple as air filter, decat, and remap. even the uk turbos can get this
this sounds like it will be an interesting project though, and i intend to be watching this one
good luck

ScoobyDoo69

David_Wallis

personally Id go with the uk engine for a 280bhp goal. and stick pre 96 to avoid alarm iimobiliser probs.. to convert to rwd if using the scoob box, just weld the centre diff up

Snapped cam belt will most likely be a bent valve or two.

LDA

so a pre 96 engine is best for less complications.

being new to the scoobys i'm not familiar with the tuning paths.
the chepest car i could get is a uk spec '95 wrx 4 door. its only a 2.0 turbo.

what parts would be the quickest route to 280hp-ish from the standard power?

also what is the standard power of a '95 uk spec wrx?

i'm trying to read as much of the forum as i can to learn more about the engine. but many of the posts are fixes for problems rather than just information.
is there somewhere where i can read more about the engine in detail? maybe a workshop manual.

i could get a slightly more expensive jap spec '95 wrx.

would this run more power?
would the more powerful engine (if it is) be able to handle a lighter tune up to 280hp than the lower powered uk engines?

is there a subaru bible type website? with all the info i could ever want. or am i already here and am just looking in the wrong place?

thanks for your help so far!!

L.

911

There are 2 or 3 books in a good book shop (ie Hudsons) on Impreza specs and these are worth investing in, but a good quick techie guide is to be found in Halfords!
Haynes do a Subaru Impreza guide which has a surprising amount of accurate detail, and for £14 is a good start.
Try searching 'books' on ebay or google on the subject too.
Graham.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

The SIDC FAQ is also worth looking at, it's a little out of date now, but should help: http://www.sidc.co.uk/faq.htm

With regards to power, 350 brake and 300+lbft are relatively easy to acheive with a UK engine and the right bolt on modifications. Sensible re-mapping and maintenance should see the engine last, I ran at these levels for 40k miles and a few years on my car without any reliability issues...well apart from the gearbox and clutch

LDA

thanks guys! most helpful.

i'm going to go book hunting on saturday i think.

top stuff. so 280hp should be fine on standard internals. just what i wanted to hear.
best get to the forsale section and find out how much spare gearboxes are. i have a feeling that i could chew through a few of them next year if i'm drifting the **** off them.

how do they normally fail? syncros? shafts? stripped teeth? or just selectors?

thanks

L.

DaveW

I was always under the impression that Subaru licensed (and then bought) the design of their engine from Alfa.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

All of the above! But 280 brake shouldn't pose any problems unless you're a real cheapskate on oils or very ham fisted

Syncros can wear if the wrong oil is used (too light) which can also kill the selector fork bushes.

Selector forks can snap if you're brutal, especially with an undamped quickshift (the standard gear stick shaft is set in rubber within a steel tube) Noramlly this is only 3rd/4th though, as 1st/2nd is steel and you rarely slam a box into 5th or reverse!

I've snapped the end of one of the selecotr rods which also killed the fork, but nothing else, despite running 350+ brake and 310+lbft through a standard 'box

3rd gear has a habit of stripping it's teeth on big power cars (over 300lbft)

If you do a lot of drag work and have a seriously powerful engine (over 450lbft) you might start snapping drive shafts and output shafts...step forward Andy Forrest/Pavlo

LDA

thats right dave, subaru did exactly that.
but alfa were too wimpy to stick a turbo on it and make it any bigger than 1.7.
turns out that the subaru lump drops more or less straight into the alfa engine bay. the alfa engine is tight to the chassis rails and so is the scooby lump but they both fit in there.

the reason i have chosen to go with the scooby power plant is that its ok at around 280ish bhp and the alfa engine is only 137 as standard. its possible to turbo the alfa lump but its not cheap or reliable afterwards.
also the alfa gearbox can only handle 210-220bhp. and the casing cracks at 300bhp or more.

tim,
i'm also a pulsar owner so i know all about broken gearboxes. done 2 myself. i had no idea the scooby one was just as bad.
so if i stick in a good high temp thick oil it should be ok.
are there any after market selector forks for the box? we had a set of hard steel ones made up for the pulsar as the 3/4th one kept snapping as its alloy.

lastly, how much do second hand boxes tend to go for? i had a look in the for sale section but couldnt find any prices due to most deals being done over PM's.

thanks guys!

Luke.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Erm, not exactly, I've run mine with Castrol Syntrax for quite a while without any issue, it's better than the standard oil, and relatively inexpensive to boot. A thicker oil isn't necessarily a good idea, Readline Heavy Duty Shockproof for example is not recommended in a subaru box, something to do with an oil way and the syncros IIRC.

Yes there are, but to be honest you won't need them unless you really are going mad on the power/torque front and are too brutal with the box...IIRC a steel 3rd/4th fork costs around 150+ quid, they were homologated for Group N and you can get them from Subaru/Prodrive I think.

If you really think your going to need a steel selector then you're probably at the stage where you're going to need a stronger box anyway (around 2k for the internals alone) or alternatively one of the newage Sti 6 speed boxes (starting at around 1.5k)

About 350 to 500 for a UK/WRX 5 speed box, more for an Sti 5 speed and around 1k for a 5 speed Sti box with the DCCD centre diff. The later (MY99 on) phase 2 gearboxes are slightly stronger than the earlier phase 1 gearboxes

To be perfectly honest we are talking worst case scenario here, you are very unlikely to have problems with a standard UK 5 speed at the power level (280 brake and corresponding torque) that you have been talking about so far.

My failures were 1) a warranty problem with 5th gear syncro and then 2) a snapped selector rod (probably not helped by the quickshift gear stick and the earlier syncro fault). Other than that I put 90k miles on my gearbox, and none of the gears broke despite my best efforts on track and the drag strip with the relatively high state of tune my engine was in.

princessyin

http://www.silverlakeautoparts.co.uk...s.aspx?ID=4040

http://www.silverlakeautoparts.co.uk...s.aspx?ID=3066

if thats any use?

LDA

thanks! i spotted them a couple of weeks ago. i've got to wait till the end of the month till i can spend any more cash. i'm hoping they will still be there!

p1 doner car would be cool. prolly not cheap tho even in a burnt out state.

L.

David_Wallis

well my gearbox is ok with cheap (And I mean cheap) gearbox oil in it.

And im probably putting 500+lbft and 600+bhp through it

David

LDA

thats some impressive power! well done!
looks like the gearbox will be ok after all

L.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

David, you are of course talking about a 6 speed, not a 5 speed though

princessyin

think you can phone up the guys their and ask them to hold it for you, but IIRC you might have to put down a deposit, should be a good donour, don't forget the ECU!

LDA

hey all, been a while since i last posted.

i'm just about at the doner car stage. found some perfect jap import cars for around £550 plus shipping. they are all crash damaged cars but none of them look too bad. a couple of them are slightly higher milage. 2 of them are over 85k miles, how well does an older ej20 take to mods? would i be pushing it too hard at that milage if i bumped the power up a bit?
not thinking loads, just want around 280ish.

now cos they are jap cars they will be mapped for 100ron fuel. i could get 99ron at tesco up the road but its easier to use optimax. how hard/easy is it to get the standard ecu remapped for the lower grade fuel?
also do they have a boost cut that would need sorting in order to run 250lbs/ft??

and lastly, what mods would be best for more torque?? is there a better inlet or exhaust manifold that might help or would it be easier to swap the turbo out for another one?

sorry for all the noob questions

cheers

L.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

you could get a different ecu to get a better match for the uk fuels. Depending on what year the import is would determine the corrosponding uk ecu. You could always go for an aftermarket ecu like the apexi power fc and have it customer mapped to the car with whatever mods you have. This will give you a nice power figure. The boost cut depends on the ecu used, as they have different levels programmed into them. Obviously with the power fc, it would remove this cut limit.

David_Wallis

remapping a 92 -96 ecu for any fuel isnt a problem.. 97 -98 are a pain in the ar$e

99+ are ecutek.. (aside from fitting a power fc)

David

LDA

thank you both. its a 1995 car so looks like a remap could be done from what you say. but then i do like the idea of a stand alone ecu to do the job. just adds to the cost i spose. prolly over a grand once mapped. not too bad but not a bargin basement price.

if only i knew how to map ecu's...


also.. gearboxes.
i'm messing big style with my one when it turns up. stripping hte front drive shafts out of it and making it a rear drive box only. theyhave a viscous front diff dont they? any tips on locking it out totally so its 100% rear drive.

i had 2 ideas. one was to crack open the V diff, dump the liquid and add some metal and well it all up..
the second idea was to take the diff to a machine shop and have them make up a small shaft to replace it.

were there any non viscous diffs for the front of the wrx as standard?

L.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

IIRC only some Sti's came with a Viscous front LSD, the UK and WRX models had an open front diff

MRT sell this part (scroll to the bottom of the page) to allow an Impreza gearbox to be converted to RWD

perky555

iTrader: (1)

aint wrx's 280bhp anyway?
use subaru gearbox with subaru inner cv joints and alfa outer joints, you'll need a custom driveshaft made up,(theres a company in NEWPORT near me that do them).
use the scooby rear diff too and have the shafts made up for the rear too.
i missed out on a CAT B wrx for 480 quid the other day, was abit short of cash at the time. have you tried jasemac on here? he could sort you the running gear out cheap.