delcbr

The next road tax renewal is going to be a hit on the wallet.........with the rise of fuel and road tax running a car is going to get dearer every year iam thinking of choosing a td of some sort.if i do an average mileage of 10k a year would running a diesel be cheaper for me? any links for info on this?

or do you have to do over a certain mileage before owning a diesel makes sense?

what quick diesels are out there?

stilover

Put it this way. The Government know the motorist is like a cash machine. When ever they want some more cash they go straight to the motorist.

The more people start swapping to Diesel cars, the more the Government will start raising duty on Diesel. What they lose in people not tanking up so much with petrol they'll claw back on the Diesel.

It wasn't to long ago that Diesel was far cheeper than Petrol. Now Diesel cars account for a larger share in new car sales, Diesel has become far more expensive. So although you are tanking up less, and getting more miles per tank, the difference in cash payed between petrol & Diesel is getting less and less.

Once the majority of people drive Diesel powerd cars, the Government will come up with new ways to raise tax. No doubt claiming that the soot coming out the back of Diesel cars is killing the planet. A Green Tax on Diesels is the only way to save the planet.

Anyway you look at it, this Government are hell bent on getting as much money out of the motorist as humanly possible. What do we do about it? Moan and get on with it.
The Government know this, so just do what the hell they like.

Blueblaster

Great! Another person starting to see the financial sense of diesel. I have said this before, but I'll say it again now because this is likely to be a popular thread.

The price of diesel is currently rising faster than petrol because the traditionally pro-petrol UK motorist is switching to diesel faster than the country's refining capacity can cope with. The price rise is simply a case of basic supply and demand economics.

Secondly, it is true that the government needs to generate a certain amount of revenue from petrol/diesel and if everyone switches to diesel then their income will be hit. However, more than 50% of new cars sold are now diesels and a large percentage of the remaining sales are small hatchbacks and other fuel efficient cars. Sales of thristy petrol engined cars are very small so the true cost to the government of a large additional switch to diesel should not be overestimated.

Now, when predicting massive tax increases on diesel you have to fully consider the consequences. Look what is happening is the shops at the moment. How much is your grocery bill rising at the moment. The answer, for those of you who don't do the shopping, is **** loads. People on lower incomes are really starting to struggle and even modest-income families are feeling the pinch. So what will happen if diesel taxes rocket? Apart from the upward pressure put on inflation by the higher cost of diesel there will also be a secondary increase caused by the rise in prices of goods delivered to shops using diesel powered vehicles. Those potatoes which have risen in price by 25% this year will go up even further. Looking slightly further into the future we would see people demanding pay rises to offset the rise in prices. The extra money sloshing around in the economy would futher increase inflation and we'd be into an economy-destroying cycle.

Now it's obvious that I have just compressed a year or two into one paragraph, but hopefully you still get the idea that the economy is very finely balanced and while it is easy to be sceptical about the government you have to remember that their hands are to a certain extent tied. So given we normally keep our cars for an average of three years you will almost certainly be better off by switching to diesel.

Now to look at your personal circumstances. 10,000 miles a year is probably the minimum mileage to make it worthwhile switching to diesel. The big thing that you have to remember about diesel is that you can both beat the manufacturers' claimed consumption and fall woefully short. I get 65mpg on my motorway run to work because I drive religiously for the best consumption. Other people will complain they only get 35-40mpg from the same car, but they will be driving enthusiastically and using the turbo all the time. It really depends on the kind of person you are. The driving I do would be boring whatever speed I travelled so I get a lot of pleasure out of saving money. I don't know what you drive at the moment, but even at the new inflated prices I just filled up having covered 640 miles for £51. Over the course of the year that really makes a impact on your current account and my road tax of £115 is much easier to stomach than the £400+ that some Scoobynetters will be paying.

All in all, you need to go into this with your eyes wide open. Big savings can be made (£3,500 per year in my case over my 05 STI), but you need to make an effort to get them.

dpb

Certainly not on anything newish or less than 10k miles a year id say and the if your unlucky you may blow a turbo or injectors which is costly also

( cos nearly all diesels are now turboed ..! )

RichardS2005

Dealer I spoke to reckoned that over 15k miles a year makes a diesel worthwhile, less than that and you don't make your money back after the cost of buying/price differential in fuel. Tax is less though....

Richard

Petem95

Diesel is almost 10p/litre more than petrol here, so about 10% more - but MPG is about 25-50% better, so it's cheaper to run a diesel still.

I do little over 10k miles per year, and got a TDi recently - main reason was performance. I've had it remapped from 140bhp to 185bhp, so its quick and still averages over 50mpg!

Blueblaster

Just one other point to remember. The comment by the last poster that they have remapped to 185bhp and they still get over 50mpg has to be considered with care. Lots of people make this claim so I am not picking on one person, but the fact that the car now has 185bhp has no bearing on how it is driven. If that car sits on the motorway at 65mph and the remapped engine is ticking over just below the point that the turbo kicks in then 50mpg+ is certainly possible. However, if you drive the car along B-roads in the manner that you would expect a remapped car to be driven then you are not going to get 50mpg+. You also have to remember (and this is not directed at any one person) a lot of people cannot do the maths to convert the litres at the pump to mpg or their "rounding up" is a little overgenerous. This is important because the difference between 45mpg and the oft claimed 50+ makes a lot of difference to the decision to make the switch in the first place.

So, you need to be prepared to drive differently. Yes, it is not exciting, but if you can learn to NEVER use the turbo, look ahead so you coast towards queues at traffic lights and roundabouts and generally minimise your breaking I reckon you should save £2000 a year in running costs if you are currently driving a 20mpg Subaru. To coin a phrase that another poster used, like poker, driving for maximum fuel economy is more exciting when you are playing for money so you might find you enjoy it.

Blueblaster

One more thing ...don't forget you won't just be saving money on petrol. I am going to get at least 30,000 miles (probably more) out of my 18" Michelins and probably 50,000 miles out of the brakes. My insurance is about 50% lower and obviously over 3 years you should save about £1000 in road tax. Because I get 60+mpg I save £3500 per year which means that I get all my depreciation for free .

Dracoro

Once you've all moved to diesel, GB will just up the road tax on them to petrol levels.

So you might save a little this year but the cost per litre is that much more. Factor in the extra purchase price of the diesel and higher running costs when they go wrong and also the mileage.

Point being, you have to do a fair number of miles to make the savings. Also, "sporty" diesels aren't *that* good on fuel compared to the run of the mill diesels, esp when you use WOT.

Blueblaster

Seems I'm doing all the pro-diesel posts on this thread.

My MY05 STI = 20mpg
My Civic diesel = 60mpg

Over 10,000 miles my STI would have used 500 gallons
Over 10,000 miles my Cvic will use 167 gallons
My Civic therefore uses 333 fewer gallons than the STI.
Superunleaded and diesel are the same price so 333 gallons x £5 = £1665 saved on petrol every 10,000 miles.
Road tax vs the Impreza is (about) £450 vs £115 = £335
Insurance is £300 cheaper (I am low risk with 10 years NCB)
So over 10,000 miles I would save £2300 excluding tyres and brakes.

Take a look at the poll where people stated how much they earn. £2300 is what the average Scoobynetter takes home in a month. And you can still have a smart looking car to be proud of sitting on the driveway.

There is nothing to suggest that the government is going to increase road tax on diesels. It goes against their green policies and they aren't going to want to upset the voters in the run up to a general election by convincing us to buy diesels and then cranking up the tax on them once we have.

You also have to remember that diesels have vastly better residuals than petrol cars and they will offset any higher purchase price. It is also misleading to say they cost more to repair when they go wrong. How much to fix a P1 engine that has self-destructed after 50,000 miles?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I'd wager that the costs involved in selling a car just to replace it with a diesel will more than outweigh any saving you might make elsewhere. It's not too difficult to put together a spreadsheet to work out what your total running costs are for both; if the saving on the diesel isn't significantly more than what you lose in depreciation, then it's not worth it.

In my case, I have a '96 STI which does about 24 mpg, and a BMW 330D which does about 35 - pretty poor for a diesel, but then again I bought the car more for the comfort, build quality and driving experience than to save money. I know quite a few scooby owners who have made this particular switch and are happier for it.

I do about 12,000 miles a year, which would work out at about 2300 litres of petrol in the scooby, or 1600 litres of diesel in the BMW. Last time I filled up it was £1.22 / litre, so with SUL and diesel being a similar price (and one that's only going to go up), that's £2800 vs £1950, a saving of £850 by driving the tractor all the time. (Some days I just fancy a go in the scooby, of course).

That amount, however, pales into insignificance compared to what it cost me to switch from the '05 STI that I was driving before, and what I've recently spent on repairs to the beemer. In my experience, buying and selling cars is always both an expensive and risky operation, and that needs to be factored in. It might be well known in scooby circles that, for example, the P1's engine has a habit of letting go - but it's equally well known that the 320D has a habit of ingesting the swirl flaps from the inlet manifold with similar results. Whilst MAF failure might be less problematic, a new fuel pump, injectors or turbo on a diesel car will easily empty your wallet for a month.

Really you need to sit down and do your own calculations. IMHO going from a 20mpg car to a 60mpg car is probably one extreme, and going from 24 to 35 mpg as in my case is around the other. The economics for you will most likely work out somewhere in between.

Blueblaster

Precisely. I would suggest you don't drive your beemer for economy. The economics only really stack up if you buy the right car and drive it the right way. If you think you can just buy a diesel and watch the money pile up then think again.

slim_boy_fat

To really save money you have to take the bus!!

Or get a bike licence and buy a Honda CG125, 120mpg

Henrik

iTrader: (5)

You know, after having lambasted you on another thread a couple of weeks back, I have to admit that you're right (yes, that hurt my ego A LOT )

I'll be driving about 15000 miles next year for commuting purposes, which if I do it in the scooby will cost around 485 quid a month (!!!) as opposed to 285 for my 1.4 clio (or 5840 vs 3425 a year). This is not including depreciation.

I made a quick spread sheet here http://www.bilar.co.uk/subaru/calcs/mileage-calc.xls where you can put in a yearly mileage, mpg, servicing etc and it will calculate the cost (not rocket science, I know).

It sucks, my commuting costs at the moment are 160 quid for a train ticket. When the office moves, this will not be a viable option.

Blueblaster

I wouldn't feel too bad - if someone doesn't have a go at me on this forum every day I feel like I have missed out.

When you start your new commute try travelling on the motorway at about 56mph. Do it for the whole tank and you'll be amazed at how much money you can save. If you have a modern car it seems that it adapts to your driving style and will give you better economy. I did Italy and back at Xmas travelling at 80mph. When I got home it took a couple of fill ups before the car readjusted to my normal snails pace and went back to giving me 65mpg. And it won't be as boring as you think because it will probably only take a few minutes longer to get to work, you'll be less stressed and you'll increasing your disposable income without having to do any extra work. Win, win, win!

c_maguire

"When you start your new commute try travelling on the motorway at about 56mph."

You cannot be serious, even the trucks don't go that slow. Drive at that speed and the trucks will overtake you (or sit right up your chuff intimidating you) and make life in the other lanes even more miserable for the rest of us.
Why not just go the whole hog, put some castors on your bed, rig it up to a suitable vacuum cleaner motor, and run the whole thing off solar panels fixed to the headboard. If it clouds over you'll be well placed to pull over and have a kip, if you haven't managed to fall asleep already.
Kevin

dpb

Surely constant 76 on cruise in 6th isnt going to cost more than a couple mpgs addditionally

tends to **** people off when they have to overtake cos its taking an age to get past Mr 56 mph man but thats their problem

- mixing it with the lorries is too much like hard work imo

Bakerman

It all boils down to how you drive.

My wifes company 100bhp Astra TD gets me around 55mpg in normal driving (and by normal I mean low revs, use of the overrun etc) whereas she gets 45mpg as she drives it like a petrol (i.e. higher up the rev range). As soon as you sniff the turbo then consumption is hit hard, however if you are not in the mood and can drive sensibly and use your momentum which doesn't mean slowly necessarily you can make big savings. The larger then engine is e.g. 330d then it is always going to use a larger amount of fuel than say a 1700cc even if both are just pootling as clearly a 3litre is still a large engine. For me if I were buying a private motor I would buy something like a 17td Corsa which has a small enough engine to be very economical when not using the turbo a lot but still has enough zip if you want to.

I get more of a buzz getting high mpg without going too slowly than going fast nowadays (have bikes to get over it) and you would be suprised how little time you actually make up whizzing around everywhere.

Incidentally on a 25 mile back road blat I do regularly with the wife, if I give her Astra what for I get mid teens mpg. Steady 85ish gets low 50s.

dpb

Mid teens

markymark34

fuel costs really wear you down. Filling up my STI on a weekly basis really started to annoy me as did 18mpg but the 35mpg i was getting from my 330d was fantastic! Problem being that an 04 330d was loosing a lot more money each year than my 03 STI but still it felt so much better only having to fill up every 2 weeks or so.

I love people who claim to be getting 60mpg (no offense to poster in this thread). I have experience with lots of diesels 1.9 bora - 46mpg
1.8 focus TDCD - 42mpg
320d - 38mpg

I only ever once got over 50 and thats when i had to sit at 50mph as someone was following me in a micra.

i would love to know is it more cost efficient to buy a Golf GTI vrs Golf GTTDI with the price of diesel going the way it is?

dome

I'm in the market for a new car for about a grand. My new job will have me doing 60 miles a day on motorways/dual carriageways. I was thinking of a saab 9000 aero, 225bhp but will do 30+ mpg. Other thought was something economical like a passat diesel estate(need something big to lug bikes about)

Based on that spreadsheet and the average mpg's(aero 30, passat 45) and it works out, based on fuel costs only doing 12k a year, at:

Aero 2000 a year
Passat 1400 a year

So, the question is, is 600 quid a year worth paying to get a far nicer, faster, comfier car I think so Off aero shopping now, cheers for the spreadsheet

Blueblaster

Actually the difference is MASSIVE. My best mpg on the run to work (35 miles of almost all motorway) is 73mpg. If I was to do the same journey at 76mph I'd be lucky to get 50mpg and that would be dependent on how often the traffic slowed in the outside lane forcing me to brake. In fact, thinking about it, I wouldn't get 50mpg...more like 45mpg.

Now you can argue that 45mpg is still good and you'd be right. But, it's above 50mpg that the £s really start to add up. For example:

10,000 miles @45mpg = £1111
10,000 miles @55mpg = £909
10,000 miles @65mpg = £769

So the difference per 10,000 miles between 56mph and 76mph is £342. Now that doesn't sound much on it's own, but it has to be taken in context. This is an additional saving on top of the extra 25mpg you're already getting over your Subaru and it costs you nothing. Only on very long journey's will slowing down by 10-15mph make any significant difference to your journey time. You also have to remember that all these savings are net of tax. In other words if you are a basic rate tax payer (20% plus 10% National Insurance = 30%) you would need to earn £489 to pay for the heavy right foot that has caused you to get 45mpg rather than 65mpg. That's a week's extra pay for your average Scoobynetter and it requires no extra work whatsoever.

c_maguire, thank you for my first abuse of the day. I know what I am talking about when it comes to fuel economy. What you have to remember is driving at 56mph in a diesel is very different to driving at the same speed in a performance car. The diesel will sit there quite happily trundling along while the sports car always wants to gallop away. My STI was particularly bad at this because the turbo used to kick in at almost the exact speed of traffic in the outside lane. I was constantly on and off boost.

And you would also be surprised about how often a lorry catches you up. Lorries very rarely travel at more than 60mph. That means they are closing you down at a rate of 4 miles per hour or 1 mile every 15 minutes. I get overtaken maybe twice a month. Any slower and I would be a problem, but 56mph works just fine for me and other road users. Unless you try it this is something you will just not appreciate.

I'll say it again because I sense the message is starting to get through. My diesel costs £3500 a year less to run than my STI. That's every year. £3500 is £4375 if you pay £20% tax and £5833 if you pay 40% and you'll save National Insurance contributions on top of that. Think what you could do with that money - how about taking a month off work and enjoying the same disposable income as you did last year? In fact, every 11 years you could take a complete year off work and be no worse off. All you have to do is drive differently!

Blueblaster

No offence taken, but you have to realise I get a bit obsessive about this. To get 60mpg+ you need to rethink the way you drive. Remember that episode of Top Gear where Clarkson took the Audi A8 diesel to Edinburgh and back on one tank. He said that he had learned to drive fast, but knew nothing about driving slowly. It is as much a skill as driving fast, it just doesn't look like it.

Blueblaster

That is one way to look at it. Alternatively you could get the Passat and the running costs would be low enough over 20 months to pay for the car. So in other words, go diesel and get the car for free.

dpb

Blueblaster i did actually get the 50 mpg on return to south france mondeo 130 at 76 .

Its diffucult to believe youlll get your 65 on any thing shorter /more trying.

blummy , ive just seen your 300 differnce - im sorry, i earn **** all but id rather go at 76

dome

True, although the chances of me keeping it that long would be slim, I tend to change every 6-9 months. Possibly sooner if I'm bored, which would happen with the passat. A good aero on the other hand won't lose money if it's looked after, they're getting rarer and can take big mileages no problem. Plus they handle well, go well and it's a nice place to be with nice seats, cruise control and all the toys. Also if diesel prices continue to climb the passat may be harder to sell on.

I guess I'm really just trying to talk myself into the Aero aren't I?? Unless someone knows of a better diesel hatch/estate than the passat, it's just one of the cars I've been looking at...

Blueblaster

Fair enough. Although that kind of trip is unique. I reckon you'll have spent almost the entire time cruising without being held up by other traffic. The morning commute usually involves a lot of stop-start and an initially cold engine. A cold engine gives significantly worse mpg and you will have a cold engine every morning and evening.

Interestingly, you rounded my £342 down to £300. This is a common trait of people who don't want to believe the numbers (not referring to you specifically). It is only when you make the change do you appreciate how much all the small numbers add up. My £3500 meant a free skiiing holiday in Canada for the family last year and 2 weeks in Peru this year.

It is essential to remember how much the average Scoobynetter earns. The guy who has just bought himself a new Ferrari isn't going to be bother about a few thousand quid a year but for someone on £25k it is really important.

I'm probably getting a little carried away now, but let's take it to an extreme. Assume a 40 year working career. If I saved £3,500 per year and put it into a pension I would have saved £140,000. With basic tax relief that would grow to £200,000. The money would also accrue interest. Let's assume that over 40 years our pension fund manager manages to double our money. So from age 20, if you just drive a different car in a different way you would have a pension fund of £400,000. That would probably generate an annual pension of £20,000. How many people on this site have a pension at all, let alone one that big?

I think I have progressed beyond boring and am actually starting to be quite informative.

vindaloo

In my diesel....

I find a compromise works best. Especially rush hour M40, M25, M4 or M3, M25, M4.

I try to tootle along some way behind a truck. If/when I get closer, assuming the traffic is flowing properly and not stop/start, I'll speed up to pass, then settle back a bit again afterwards.

Somewhere bwteen 65-75mph works if traffic conditions allow.

mg driver

sod whats cheaper ,im going to enjoy driving regardless of our government bum raping us ,you wont win either way ,the only winner is the chancellor.So tell the governmet to and drive what you want when you want ,lifes too short to waste it doing things you would sooner not do,if that means a few extra quid on petrol for a fun car then so be it

Blueblaster

Thank you for your contribution. Just a couple of points I'd like to challenge you on.

1. Is it possible to actually enjoy driving on the motorway in heavy traffic during the rush hour?
2. Giving less money to the chancellor and using the "free" money to create a financially secure retirement is actually a win for the motorist, is it not?
3. Life is indeed too short, but I can assure you that it will be a damn site shorter if you have to continue working beyond 60/65 simply because you weren't prepared to change the way you drive and pocket the significant savings that were the result.