Matteeboy

Currently very keen on ignoring fast cars and getting a Landy 90 Td5, budget of around £10-12k and want back seats.
Will be used for trialling, towing our boat and generally for beating up.

Anyone got one? Wife had them for years (took her test in one) and nothing beats them off road. Just need to find a good motor mechanic to look after it!

logiclee

TD5 is prone to stalling and feels week compared to the TD300 but other wise a good toy. I drive Defenders at work to get me about and inbetween sites, I've also owned a Series 2A and a Series3.

The only thing that stops me buying one besides the laughable driving position is the lack of grunt especially when towing, the TD5 is weedy.

I went for a Cherokee 2.8CRD auto which has a higher kerbweight than the 90, much higher power and torque from a modern common rail diesel with VGT turbo, 3.5T towing capacity and a better 4X4 setup.

The one big draw back with the Cherokee is ground clearance, it isn't anywhere near as good as a 90 without a serious suspension lift.

Depends how serious your off roading is going to be.

Cheers
Lee

TopBanana

Not so much Chelsea tractor as tractor!

Blademaster

I am on my 14th Discovery and 3rd Range rover but only 1 Defender.

I have for sale a Discovery TD5 Commercial that has been converted into a 5 seat car. Has black leather electric seats, climate control, auto box with cruise, roof rails, body moundings, tinted windows, adjustable tow bar, epsom green, 54 plate and 76k miles(i think) FSH (main dealer) for sale at £10500.

Cheaper and more refined than a Defender and tows fantastic.

Want a cheap car?

Brendan Hughes

https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...-pls-read.html

Dave Thornton

I was a Land Rover brand enthusiast, thinking that the Discovery was good and a Range Rover was worth aspiring to.

How wrong I was.

I now have a Mercedes ML430 - it's not perfect, but find me another vehicle that can go off road, seat 7, do 0-60 in 8 seconds and cost less than £7k. Oh, and 20% more economical than a LR V8.

German and Japanese cars are 'generally' the best bet.

Hol

iTrader: (1)

Buy a Forester.

Hol

iTrader: (1)

Apart from the off road bit

logiclee

An ML off road? You're having a laugh.

No low ratio, limited axle articulation, low wading depth. It faired that poorly in previous off road reviews that 4X4 magazine didn't even bother testing it for this years best family 4X4. The new model is available with off road pack and adjustable air suspension but it still wouldn't get round the course that the Discovery, Cherokee, Landcruiser, Touareg etc made with ease.

Cheers
Lee

Matteeboy

Yes but this will be used on farms and for trialling!
If we want comfort, we have the Astra.
This will be short range stuff.

I used to drive modded 110s (TD5s) as part of my job (Geotec engineer) and nothing (even a JCB) touched them off road.

They are suprisingly pricey but spotted a very nice one not too far away.

logiclee

How heavy is the boat and trailer?

The 90 has a fairly light kerbweight for an 4X4 and the TD5 with only 122bhp and 220lbft isn't the greatest tugger.

Cheers
Lee

Matteeboy

Lee -It's only dinky. In fact we have used a relatives Suzuki Jimny to tow it with no problems!
14'6" speed boat with a 60 - Boat is about 400kgs, trailer another 150-200ish (at a guess). At least if it's light, it'll go quicker!

We used to use a 90 TDi pick up (even lighter) to tow a 22ft Boston Whaler Outrage with two 115s - Must have weighed plenty.

Might look at chipping the engine but I'm not worried about it going fast.

logiclee

You will be fine then, I've had a couple of tonne on the back of a 110 TD5 and it's not pleasant on hills, would be downright dangerous on the A30.

Cheers
Lee

Matteeboy

We used to tow three tonne drilling rigs with the company 110 Td5s - Clutches lasted 8k max, gearboxes about 15k.
Also often towed full bowsers (about 1.5 tonnes) which were okay but a bit slow on the hills.

Those poor Landies got some serious abuse and were completely dead by about 60k miles!

Matteeboy

Just booked to see it.
V reg (2000), 31k miles, under warranty (3rd party), station wagon (so has back seats), sunroof, met dark blue, alloys and multiple extras.
Splendid!

stuh1981

The only land rover that will last is the Defender series. The money that Land Rover want for the Discovery and Range Rover is a total scandal. They are very unrealiable. Just look where they perform on the JD Power survey.

logiclee

You can now add the Freelander 2 to that list, a 2.2 Diesel HSE is £31000. How can they justify that, it only has a 4 cylinder Ford engine. A Jeep Patriot to similar spec with the VW 2.0 TDi is £18795. Even the rest of the Compact SUV crowd like the X-Trail, CRV etc are thousands cheaper. If off roading isn't important you can get an X3 with the awesome 3.0D engine for similar money.

LandRover certainly expect a premium price for the green oval, the top spec Range Rover is now over £100k

Cheers
Lee

Devildog

Matt

Did you buy it?

For that money you'd get a good 3.2 Shogun with climate, alloys, etc.

Decent off road credentials and much better on road. Higher towing capacity IIRC and more fuel efficient too.

All you have to do is get over your prejudice

Matteeboy

Devil - Nope. It was totally mint and the mileage was right but overpriced for the age. The guy (who has been trying to sell it for ages) is being silly on negotiation.
Seen a couple of others around that are newer and better specced.

I would never ever get a Shogun. I liked the early boxy shape (Dad had one, tuned up by BBR) but I cannot stand the newer ones (current or previous) one bit.

It will be used for proper green laning and trials as well as boat towing and general hard work (slinging outboards in the back, wetsuits, wet dog, etc so a Defender fits the bill. If we want comfort, we use the Astra.

I would have a Jimny over a Shogun - at least they have a proper low range gear option!

Devildog

lol

Shogun's have 2/4/4 low - I take it you mean the fact that you can only have low range and locked centre diff?

Having said that, I'm struggling to figure out when that would be an issue?

Matteeboy

Devil - Are you honestly telling me that a rather comfy Shogun like yours would get anywhere near a Defender off road? Yes I know Shoguns are one of the more capable 4x4s but to me, a 4x4 is either a workhorse made to take serious stick, or a performance car.

I just don't "get" the "comfy" 4x4 bit but then I'd never use it on long journeys where a Defender would rattle anyones teeth out - I used to drive them long distance (to far off Geotec jobs) and they weren't good on the Mway but amazing once you got there.
A Landcruiser Amazon (properly green laned a VX 4.2TD - astonishingly good) would be my comfy 4x4 choice if I really had to have one.

I've green laned a Jimny too and although very daft looking and tiny with a weedy engine, they are utterly brilliant off road.

Devildog

With the right tyres and a skilled off road driver, yes, perhaps surprisingly, it probably would come pretty close.

It's abilities off road are most certainly beyond mine, and I've had defenders in pretty extreme situations. No question, its every bit as good (if not better in some circumstances) than the Landcruiser.

Green laning is a proverbial piece of pi55 for a shogun

It may have an integrated ladder frame chassis, rather than separate, and independent suspension which provides for more limited axle articulation, but its still very much a proper 4x4 in both strength of construction (truck like) and intended use. No doubt about its abilities to take some serious stick, whilst keeping its occupants pleasantly chilled at the same time

To be honest Matt, if you remove the Defender from the equasion, everything else thats not a soft roader/suv like the Rav4's, Freelanders, CRV's, etc would class as a "comfy" 4x4.

As for he workhorse bit, just look to the middle east. Landcruisers and to a lesser extent Shoguns are the workhorse of choice.

If you lived where I do, you'd know of many good reasons to own a Shogun/Landcruiser/Pathfinder/Discovery, where you want the compromise of reasonable on road ability together with good off road ability. Something a Defender doesn't provide.

Although, I will concede, that a Defender with the right kit is undoubtably one of the coolest, classless and fit for purpose vehicles on planet earth.

logiclee

Well the skilled drivers at 4X4 magazine didn't think so at this years family 4X4 of the year trials. The Shoguns departure angle is very poor as is the axle articulation, break over angle and side slope ability are below average, it failed the hill climb and struggled around the obstacle course. It finished that far down the list for off road ability it's been eliminated from next years event.
Only the SsangYong Rexton and Nissan Pathfinder finished below it.

Cheers
Lee

Devildog

Lee, interesting - LWB I presume? And on what tyres?

SWB (on which my comments are based) has significantly better departure angle and break over for a start.

logiclee

LWB as it was a family 4X4 trial so all vehicles had to be 5 door.

It was on all terrain tyres in dry weather, the RR Sport made it up the incline on low profile road tyres, the Jeep Commander made it up on tickover!!

The RTI (Ramp Trave Index) was poor meaning the Shogun easily lifts a wheel and looses traction which hampered it around the Tong obstacle course rather than the lack of traction from the tyres.

Cheers
Lee

Matteeboy

Logiclee - Interesting. Might have to grab a copy of that.
The 90 is a lot better than the 110 (and is a lot lighter too) off road, yet the 110s we used for work were pretty amazing. When the JCBs were getting stuck and needing to use their shovels to push themselves out, the 110s kept on going.

Devil - Green lanes around here are very severe in places - just about manageable by a decent tractor. It felt very odd burning down them in a rather luxury LC Amazon, which really are amazing off road although massively dated engine-wise.

lozgti

I love our X trail....which I appreciate is probably just a big estate car really.

Feels rock solid,goes well (2.5 petrol and not too thirsty).Presume it would struggle even on gravel though.

Reminds me,need to get the sticker for the back window that says 'people carriers pollute more ' for the enviro nutters

Devildog

No doubt about it, the Amazon is quite some beast

Matteeboy

We got "upgraded" to an X Trail (top end one with SatNav and leather!) when our Seat hire car broke down. I was really impressed by it. Didn't push it too hard off road but the build quality, comfort levels and drive were all good. Wouldn't get one but I now look at them with respect.

Anyone really pushed a Forester? Had a 24 hour test drive of an XT - Great on road (really fun upsetting reps!) but not sure how they'd cope off road. MPG prohibitive though unfortunately. I averaged 18mpg not driving it too hard.

logiclee

Go as far as an Impreza on stilts

No low range, no diff locks, limited ground clearance. I would say getting off a wet grass field and forestry gravel roads would be as much as it would handle.

I also like the X-Trail but again no low range, seems the majority of the compact SUV sector dont bother with low range as most people don't use them off road.

Low range is critical for serious off road because slow speed gives more control and a three to one transfer box will give three times the engine torque at the wheels.

Two short low ratio vids on a Jeep Cherokee (Liberty in the USA)

YouTube - Jeep Liberty off road

YouTube - Jeep Liberty on the Moab Rim trail

Cheers
Lee