8.5K - Elise or Caterham?
14 May 2006, 02:06 PM
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8.5K - Elise or Caterham?
Hi there,
I'm considering buying either a Lotus Elise or a Caterham se7en for approx. 8.5K. The car will be a second vehicle (third if you count my motorbike!) and will only be used for fun at the weekends and during the long summer days.
I've had a Caterham and a Westfield before and really enjoyed them. The Caterham / Westfield is more extreme than the Elise although not necessarily faster point to point. The Elise will be far more practical and comfortable and will likely see more use.
The Elise seems better value for money although I'm slightly concerned about the running costs of the Lotus. Servicing, insurance and repairs will cost more for an Elise especially bearing in mind the mileage of a car in this price bracket.
The Caterham appeals as it’s so simple and focused. I love the sound of a x-flow with twin webbers. Downsides are the very stiff, and sometimes jarring ride, tiny cockpit (although this could also been seen as a plus point!), the ali body takes forever to polish and the hood ain't always waterproof. (although the hood on the Elise isn’t always waterproof either !!)
As this will be a second car I'm keen to keep the running costs to a minimum. The car will do around 4K miles a year.
The car will be kept outside during the summer months.
Any advice welcomed.
Martin.
I'm considering buying either a Lotus Elise or a Caterham se7en for approx. 8.5K. The car will be a second vehicle (third if you count my motorbike!) and will only be used for fun at the weekends and during the long summer days.
I've had a Caterham and a Westfield before and really enjoyed them. The Caterham / Westfield is more extreme than the Elise although not necessarily faster point to point. The Elise will be far more practical and comfortable and will likely see more use.
The Elise seems better value for money although I'm slightly concerned about the running costs of the Lotus. Servicing, insurance and repairs will cost more for an Elise especially bearing in mind the mileage of a car in this price bracket.
The Caterham appeals as it’s so simple and focused. I love the sound of a x-flow with twin webbers. Downsides are the very stiff, and sometimes jarring ride, tiny cockpit (although this could also been seen as a plus point!), the ali body takes forever to polish and the hood ain't always waterproof. (although the hood on the Elise isn’t always waterproof either !!)
As this will be a second car I'm keen to keep the running costs to a minimum. The car will do around 4K miles a year.
The car will be kept outside during the summer months.
Any advice welcomed.
Martin.
14 May 2006, 06:19 PM
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There is not much in it between the type of seven you will get for that money and the type of elise you will get, IYSWIM.
At the most you will be able to get a crossflow or vx 8 valve, which both produce less than 120bhp in standard form. The elise however has the K series (that later Caterhams have) and has much nicer charicteristics (for me anyway) and has quite a lot of potential. Modifications on crossflows often include big valve heads and steel bottom end, so can be expensive. Quite easy on the k series to swap out the cams, port the head and stick an Emerald ECU on it, for an extra 20bhp.
Its also a very bad time of the year to buy, prices will be high and there will be plenty of buyers around. If you could wait another 5 or 6 months you could probably get a better car for the same money. October - December is the best time to buy. You could probably get an ex-race Caterham (road legal) for about 10k, with 6speed box and k series engine.
Also worth considering what kind of car you want, they are very different animals, the Caterham tends to understeer a lot and suffers from its very high Cd. 90-100mph is going to be the end of your fun in a x-flow / vx 8v.
However, they handle very well and there is plenty of scope to set the car up on a flat floor etc etc. The elise, its going to be a bit quicker in acceleration and will be more pokey at 100+. However the handling is quite on the oversteer side, and IME they can be a bit tail happy at high speeds. I have driven lots of them (on track) and I am always on the ball in fast sweeping corners.
If I had 8.5k right now I would probably go for the elise, but its a close one.
Check out www.blatchat.com and www.seventorque.com
BTK
At the most you will be able to get a crossflow or vx 8 valve, which both produce less than 120bhp in standard form. The elise however has the K series (that later Caterhams have) and has much nicer charicteristics (for me anyway) and has quite a lot of potential. Modifications on crossflows often include big valve heads and steel bottom end, so can be expensive. Quite easy on the k series to swap out the cams, port the head and stick an Emerald ECU on it, for an extra 20bhp.
Its also a very bad time of the year to buy, prices will be high and there will be plenty of buyers around. If you could wait another 5 or 6 months you could probably get a better car for the same money. October - December is the best time to buy. You could probably get an ex-race Caterham (road legal) for about 10k, with 6speed box and k series engine.
Also worth considering what kind of car you want, they are very different animals, the Caterham tends to understeer a lot and suffers from its very high Cd. 90-100mph is going to be the end of your fun in a x-flow / vx 8v.
However, they handle very well and there is plenty of scope to set the car up on a flat floor etc etc. The elise, its going to be a bit quicker in acceleration and will be more pokey at 100+. However the handling is quite on the oversteer side, and IME they can be a bit tail happy at high speeds. I have driven lots of them (on track) and I am always on the ball in fast sweeping corners.
If I had 8.5k right now I would probably go for the elise, but its a close one.
Check out www.blatchat.com and www.seventorque.com
BTK
14 May 2006, 06:28 PM
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Been in both cars, the Cat is more skin of the teeth type of a ride, the Elese is a lot more composed. Personaly i would go for an Elise, they have best suspension set up i have ever come across, you really can use it on road and track!
14 May 2006, 06:51 PM
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Examples: (right mouse save as)
Elise high speed lift off oversteer (ok its a 340R but you get the drift)
http://www.jimbocam.com/elvington/v9...-1039-340r.mpg
And again
http://www.jimbocam.com/donington/v6...6-bigslide.mpg
And just for balance here is an elise (with Type R engine..) doing a bit of gooning. Have driven this car and its brilliant!
http://www.jimbocam.com/elvington/vA...5goon1-vcd.mpg
Elise high speed lift off oversteer (ok its a 340R but you get the drift)
http://www.jimbocam.com/elvington/v9...-1039-340r.mpg
And again
http://www.jimbocam.com/donington/v6...6-bigslide.mpg
And just for balance here is an elise (with Type R engine..) doing a bit of gooning. Have driven this car and its brilliant!
http://www.jimbocam.com/elvington/vA...5goon1-vcd.mpg
14 May 2006, 07:08 PM
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Good initial post and links there BTK. The guy in the 2nd clip must have had God on his side, and the car in the third clip must have had God at the wheel. Superb balance, particularly the last double apex. 
14 May 2006, 09:29 PM
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An elise at 8.5k will probably be quiet tired and need parts replacing.
Suspension, bushes and steering racks can wear and you will probably be looking at around a 8 year old car. Budget on replacing these, or look for a car with these items replaced at around 10 ~ 11k.
Find the right car and you wont stop smilling
Suspension, bushes and steering racks can wear and you will probably be looking at around a 8 year old car. Budget on replacing these, or look for a car with these items replaced at around 10 ~ 11k.
Find the right car and you wont stop smilling
14 May 2006, 09:56 PM
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I agree, 10k can buy a very nice elise.
Re the driver in the last clip, he is very, very good. I reckon he can give Tiff a good run for his money. His name is Jonny and a lot of people who do track days will know who he is... a kind of Stigg figure
Re the driver in the last clip, he is very, very good. I reckon he can give Tiff a good run for his money. His name is Jonny and a lot of people who do track days will know who he is... a kind of Stigg figure
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15 May 2006, 11:49 AM
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I got my Elise around 2 months ago. A bit 
with the comments about 8.5k buys a tired Elise.
My Elise is a T 99. cream leather, cd player,driving lights, alloy winders, new tyres, full Lotus history with recent service, 11 month MOT and tax 36k mileage. In fact perfect in everyway apart from the few stonechips at the front which they all will have.
How much was this car? 8.5k
Don't know much about Cats, but I love the Elise. I use mine as a day to day and it's always left outside. I purchased a 60 quid shower cap that I cover it with every night, mainly as extra protection against heavy rain and cats (for some reason they love sleeping on the roofs). My roof doesn't leak at all on it's own in heavy rain though.
The Elise is a very cheeky fun car, it'll do 40 mpg combined and 49 extra urban, all on NUL. It's not a straight line drag car speed wise, but it's very surefooted and rewarding to drive.
Servicing is not that expensive if carried out by a specialist. Expect around a hundred quid for the cheapest and 450-500 quid for a 'c' service (cambelt). Cambelt ie every 4 years, so buy wisely with one recently completed and you've saved that already. A lot of sellers I find forgo spending on a C service and claim it hasn't met the required mileage for a change (45k), avoid these cars. In fact any evidence of skimping on servicing or other pennypinching, then don't bother even going to look.
2 main faults with the Elise, the steering rack and HGF (head gasket failure). The steering rack you're looking at a few hundred quid, the HGF around 500 quid. Not a concern for me coming from Impreza ownership, so relatively speaking these are overall pretty minor issues. Check the oil cap etc for mayo. When you do buy one, keep an eye on the coolant. It should be around the min level when cold, and raise up a bit when hot. Erratic temperature rises and falls on the stack (digital readings on dash) is a sign of HGF too.
Check the clutch cable isn't red plastic, but braided metal. Apparently gears can be difficult to select in hot conditions with the red plastic, cheap fix if it isn't. Pick up the mats/carpet in the front and check for corroded floor as there was an issue with carpet 'sweating' and corroding the floor. IIRC this is a Lotus fix if the car is under 8 years old.
Signs of fabric wear on the sills are quite common due to people clambering in and out. Exhaust and filter upgrades are fairly common, as are S2 suspension and better pads. Ask has the car been onto a track and be prepared for blank looks and shrugging of shoulders. Even if it has been tracked the Elise stands up pretty well to track driving and the parts that do fail aren't that expensive to replace.
If it was me, I'd only want a car with every old MOT, and, services recorded in stamped lotus book and receipts along with every other bill. Mine has bills for everything including tyres. I'm a bit **** like that anyway, but it's very useful with confirming mileage and it'll be masses easier to sell on. The vin plate is basically laminated paper stuck to something under the front clam. there is a stamped vin behind a wheel on the offside IIRC, but you may have to remove the rear wheel to read it. The boot release is behind the drivers door, a bit of T plastic that you pull out, always check it works. The bonnet release has the same plastic to pull downwards on the right hand side under the dash (above accelerator pedal), the bonnet itself is lifted 'back to front' not like lifting a normal bonnet.
Repairs? Well it's basically a rover engine/gearbox in a lightweight fibreglass body (2 clams) on an aliminium boxed chassis. Do some damage to a clam and it's usually a new clam.
As I say I know almost nothing about a Cat. It doesn't appeal to me as I want a day to day car with a degree of praticality. There is a boot in the Elise enough for several shopping bags, also behing the seats there is a shelf with cargo nets and behind the seats themselves.
Look on pistonheads, Ebay and Autotrader. There are loads of them for sale so plenty of choice. Make sure youre happy with the colour and spec and the history of the car and you'll never look back! 10k plus and you're in 111 territory.
with the comments about 8.5k buys a tired Elise.My Elise is a T 99. cream leather, cd player,driving lights, alloy winders, new tyres, full Lotus history with recent service, 11 month MOT and tax 36k mileage. In fact perfect in everyway apart from the few stonechips at the front which they all will have.
How much was this car? 8.5k
Don't know much about Cats, but I love the Elise. I use mine as a day to day and it's always left outside. I purchased a 60 quid shower cap that I cover it with every night, mainly as extra protection against heavy rain and cats (for some reason they love sleeping on the roofs). My roof doesn't leak at all on it's own in heavy rain though.
The Elise is a very cheeky fun car, it'll do 40 mpg combined and 49 extra urban, all on NUL. It's not a straight line drag car speed wise, but it's very surefooted and rewarding to drive.
Servicing is not that expensive if carried out by a specialist. Expect around a hundred quid for the cheapest and 450-500 quid for a 'c' service (cambelt). Cambelt ie every 4 years, so buy wisely with one recently completed and you've saved that already. A lot of sellers I find forgo spending on a C service and claim it hasn't met the required mileage for a change (45k), avoid these cars. In fact any evidence of skimping on servicing or other pennypinching, then don't bother even going to look.
2 main faults with the Elise, the steering rack and HGF (head gasket failure). The steering rack you're looking at a few hundred quid, the HGF around 500 quid. Not a concern for me coming from Impreza ownership, so relatively speaking these are overall pretty minor issues. Check the oil cap etc for mayo. When you do buy one, keep an eye on the coolant. It should be around the min level when cold, and raise up a bit when hot. Erratic temperature rises and falls on the stack (digital readings on dash) is a sign of HGF too.
Check the clutch cable isn't red plastic, but braided metal. Apparently gears can be difficult to select in hot conditions with the red plastic, cheap fix if it isn't. Pick up the mats/carpet in the front and check for corroded floor as there was an issue with carpet 'sweating' and corroding the floor. IIRC this is a Lotus fix if the car is under 8 years old.
Signs of fabric wear on the sills are quite common due to people clambering in and out. Exhaust and filter upgrades are fairly common, as are S2 suspension and better pads. Ask has the car been onto a track and be prepared for blank looks and shrugging of shoulders. Even if it has been tracked the Elise stands up pretty well to track driving and the parts that do fail aren't that expensive to replace.
If it was me, I'd only want a car with every old MOT, and, services recorded in stamped lotus book and receipts along with every other bill. Mine has bills for everything including tyres. I'm a bit **** like that anyway, but it's very useful with confirming mileage and it'll be masses easier to sell on. The vin plate is basically laminated paper stuck to something under the front clam. there is a stamped vin behind a wheel on the offside IIRC, but you may have to remove the rear wheel to read it. The boot release is behind the drivers door, a bit of T plastic that you pull out, always check it works. The bonnet release has the same plastic to pull downwards on the right hand side under the dash (above accelerator pedal), the bonnet itself is lifted 'back to front' not like lifting a normal bonnet.
Repairs? Well it's basically a rover engine/gearbox in a lightweight fibreglass body (2 clams) on an aliminium boxed chassis. Do some damage to a clam and it's usually a new clam.
As I say I know almost nothing about a Cat. It doesn't appeal to me as I want a day to day car with a degree of praticality. There is a boot in the Elise enough for several shopping bags, also behing the seats there is a shelf with cargo nets and behind the seats themselves.
Look on pistonheads, Ebay and Autotrader. There are loads of them for sale so plenty of choice. Make sure youre happy with the colour and spec and the history of the car and you'll never look back! 10k plus and you're in 111 territory.
Last edited by scoobynutta555; 15 May 2006 at 11:52 AM.
15 May 2006, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by billythekid
That is spectacular !
15 May 2006, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by scoobynutta555
I got my Elise around 2 months ago. A bit with the comments about 8.5k buys a tired Elise.
with the comments about 8.5k buys a tired Elise.
There are plenty of good cars around, but i also know people who have bought cars at this price only to find just down the road that parts need replacing. This is not a major issue, but it would be wise to budget for this eventuality.
The cars are cheap to run when compared with a scooby. Fuel being the biggest saving
I just came back from a drive into france last week covering 1800 miles and averaging 37mpg
lowlander..
Its worth registering with SELOC and MLOC car forums.
You will find loads of useful information and cars for sale with a known history.
Oh, and this gives me the chance to stick up a piccie of my elise taken in the pyrenees last year
Good luck with the hunting.
15 May 2006, 05:29 PM
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Lowlander
Very difficult choice. They are very different cars to drive and reward in different ways. If the 4k miles is road mileage I'd go for an elise, its slightly easier to live with, but no less fun to drive. However the running costs for the elise will almost certainly be higher, even using specialists.
If you are factoring track work into the equasions then I'd lean towards a 7, personaly I prefer the handling charecteristics of a front engine rwd layout to that of the mid engine rwd layout.
As you know the roof on the 7 is a PITA, the elise is simple by comparison, but still takes a few mins. If your leaving it outside then a shower cape is an essential option for the elise.
I've had both, an R500 and a Series 1 Sport160, whilst I still have photos of the 7 on my desktop, the car I miss most is the elise.
Very difficult choice. They are very different cars to drive and reward in different ways. If the 4k miles is road mileage I'd go for an elise, its slightly easier to live with, but no less fun to drive. However the running costs for the elise will almost certainly be higher, even using specialists.
If you are factoring track work into the equasions then I'd lean towards a 7, personaly I prefer the handling charecteristics of a front engine rwd layout to that of the mid engine rwd layout.
As you know the roof on the 7 is a PITA, the elise is simple by comparison, but still takes a few mins. If your leaving it outside then a shower cape is an essential option for the elise.
I've had both, an R500 and a Series 1 Sport160, whilst I still have photos of the 7 on my desktop, the car I miss most is the elise.
15 May 2006, 05:42 PM
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Hi there,
Thanks for all the advice.
I'm certainly leaning towards the Elise as the estimated 4K miles a year will all be done on the road. The Elise is more practical than the seven, there are lots to choose from and I'm in no rush to buy so can wait for the right car. The bonus of 35-40mpg is also very appealing. Probably th best approach is to save a little bit more, wait for the right car and buy a nice example for 8.5K-9.0K and keep 1K in the bank for servicing and running costs over a year.
The Elise looks great in some colours but my favourite is grey metallic (although I'm sure thats not its proper name), with Azure blue and dark metallic red coming close second.
The seven is a huge bundle fo fun and I loved driving mine. Time for something a bit different, a bit more modern, a bit more practical, a bit softer but just as much fun. Time for an Elise I think!
Thanks again.
Martin.
Thanks for all the advice.
I'm certainly leaning towards the Elise as the estimated 4K miles a year will all be done on the road. The Elise is more practical than the seven, there are lots to choose from and I'm in no rush to buy so can wait for the right car. The bonus of 35-40mpg is also very appealing. Probably th best approach is to save a little bit more, wait for the right car and buy a nice example for 8.5K-9.0K and keep 1K in the bank for servicing and running costs over a year.
The Elise looks great in some colours but my favourite is grey metallic (although I'm sure thats not its proper name), with Azure blue and dark metallic red coming close second.
The seven is a huge bundle fo fun and I loved driving mine. Time for something a bit different, a bit more modern, a bit more practical, a bit softer but just as much fun. Time for an Elise I think!
Thanks again.
Martin.
16 May 2006, 09:22 AM
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Hey mate, id definately recomend the elise, i had one for 2 years before i moved out, so unfortunately had to sell for something with a bigger boot
During my ownership, it was faultless!, never missed a beat! People do slate the engine, but personally im a big fan. running costs were pretty reasonable, insurance, fuel, tyres etc..... The only downside is like someone said, the stone chips, but try not to look on the downside of it, coz they are so easy to cover up an accident, if theres a lot of stone chips then you know for sure that its ligit and hasnt had a clam changed to cover up a crash. Now im back home and driving
Good luck with finding a good one mate, if you anywhere near beds/herts il be more than happy to come and help you find a nice example.
jay
During my ownership, it was faultless!, never missed a beat! People do slate the engine, but personally im a big fan. running costs were pretty reasonable, insurance, fuel, tyres etc..... The only downside is like someone said, the stone chips, but try not to look on the downside of it, coz they are so easy to cover up an accident, if theres a lot of stone chips then you know for sure that its ligit and hasnt had a clam changed to cover up a crash. Now im back home and driving
Good luck with finding a good one mate, if you anywhere near beds/herts il be more than happy to come and help you find a nice example.
jay
17 May 2006, 09:17 AM
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With the usage you describe, i think you'd get more ouf of an elise. I've had a few caterhams and an elise is a much better chouce for a road/fun oriented toy. If it was track work you were more interested in, then the choice may be different. I find the caterham's too hardcore for the road.
track-monkey.co.uk
track-monkey.co.uk
18 May 2006, 08:32 PM
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You could buy my Elise...
...http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=514258
Also on ebay - ends saturday @ 9pm
ewan
...http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=514258
Also on ebay - ends saturday @ 9pm
ewan
18 May 2006, 08:52 PM
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A lot of bollocks on this thread
For a 2nd car of the kind you describe, forget the Elise, forget the Caterham and get a Westfield. £8.5 will get you a beauty.
End of story. No matter how 'nice' the Elise is, it's compromised.
For a 2nd car of the kind you describe, forget the Elise, forget the Caterham and get a Westfield. £8.5 will get you a beauty.
End of story. No matter how 'nice' the Elise is, it's compromised.
19 May 2006, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MooseRacer
A lot of bollocks on this thread
For a 2nd car of the kind you describe, forget the Elise, forget the Caterham and get a Westfield. £8.5 will get you a beauty.
End of story. No matter how 'nice' the Elise is, it's compromised.
For a 2nd car of the kind you describe, forget the Elise, forget the Caterham and get a Westfield. £8.5 will get you a beauty.
End of story. No matter how 'nice' the Elise is, it's compromised.
The guy wants to use it as a road car, so as a 2nd car for the road an elise is a far better proposition.
19 May 2006, 02:21 PM
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For running costs you can't beat a VX engined Westfield, insurance is £150 for a 3k mileage (0 NCB, my full NCB is on the Subaru), servicing is very easy and parts are cheap.
for 8.5k you will find a very good low mileage example that will be reliable, wheras the Elise for 8.5k will usually be tired.
I think the hood may be the sticking point if its intended to be kept outside, especially security wise - not forgetting the locks on the bonnets are useless.
My westy is up for sale very soon (no bias then!) but it doesn't have a hood, it has a tonneau cover for when its rarely parked outside, which is more weatherproof than a hood!
BTW £9k would buy mine, 13k miles 1999 SEIW with SDB tuned 208BHP VX engine, road springs etc, let me know if you fancy a go to perswade your mind!
for 8.5k you will find a very good low mileage example that will be reliable, wheras the Elise for 8.5k will usually be tired.
I think the hood may be the sticking point if its intended to be kept outside, especially security wise - not forgetting the locks on the bonnets are useless.
My westy is up for sale very soon (no bias then!) but it doesn't have a hood, it has a tonneau cover for when its rarely parked outside, which is more weatherproof than a hood!
BTW £9k would buy mine, 13k miles 1999 SEIW with SDB tuned 208BHP VX engine, road springs etc, let me know if you fancy a go to perswade your mind!
19 May 2006, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sport160
DOH and a Westfield isn't ???
The guy wants to use it as a road car, so as a 2nd car for the road an elise is a far better proposition.
The guy wants to use it as a road car, so as a 2nd car for the road an elise is a far better proposition.
Why is an Elise a far better proposition as a 2nd road car? Because it has a roof? Or is it the mighty K series power plant? But we are both biased (judging by your username)
20 May 2006, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MooseRacer
We'll have to agree to disagree Why is an Elise a far better proposition as a 2nd road car? Because it has a roof? Or is it the mighty K series power plant?
But we are both biased (judging by your username)
Why is an Elise a far better proposition as a 2nd road car? Because it has a roof? Or is it the mighty K series power plant? But we are both biased (judging by your username)
Also no particular fan of the K series, its Ok in std form but has serious limitation in terms of reliability when you start to tune it.IMHO the elise is a great little package, is fun to drive, has steering feel to die for and handling that is fantastic (in the dry and in term of what you should exploit on the road). The added benefit of a roof that works, windows, heater, a little more comfort and things like that do make it a better road car, plus it can be used every day.
As a 2nd track/road car a westy (or caterham) is probably the more fun car, the rwd/front engine set up in much more exploitable and £ for £ you are likely to get more power.
Just because the elise is slightly less pure than a 7 derived car, doesn't make it any less creditable IMO. Horses for courses but I think you need to be a more comitted enthusiast to own a westy over an elise, especially when its only for road use.
Rgds
PS
Since this has turned into a show and tell
http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...rent=No481.jpg
http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...=Elise160s.jpg
20 May 2006, 07:19 PM
#29
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2 very nice cars
My first post(s) were blatant baiting, my personal choice would be (and indeed is) the caterfield, but simply because the compromises don't bother me in a 2nd car. Incidentally I have never known people get out of your way on the motorway quite as quickly as they do when a seven appears at the bottom of their rear view mirror, I often go shopping in mine, and don't baulk at long journeys in it either.
The Elise is a cracking car, and one day an Exige will be sitting on my dirveway (hopefully a mk2 lol)
My first post(s) were blatant baiting, my personal choice would be (and indeed is) the caterfield, but simply because the compromises don't bother me in a 2nd car. Incidentally I have never known people get out of your way on the motorway quite as quickly as they do when a seven appears at the bottom of their rear view mirror, I often go shopping in mine, and don't baulk at long journeys in it either.
The Elise is a cracking car, and one day an Exige will be sitting on my dirveway (hopefully a mk2 lol)