Edcase

Right, for those of you who haven't been following the saga of what car to buy next...

The situation is this:

I only have space for one car.
I go mountainbiking. And snowboarding. A lot. Often abroad. This means transporting lots of bulky / dirty gear. And people.

However I am also a total petrolhead. I like to drive fast, especially on b-roads and on track. I *need* a quick, good handling car. Preferably with a nice interior and a little kudos.

Money isn't really a factor but as always, the less I spend on the car the more I can spend elsewhere

Of course, anything which matches the above criteria isn't going to be cheap.

So I had decided pretty much on a 30k mile RS6, until some bright spark suggested the import-only Forester STi. And now I'm confused.

Here's the skinny:

Audi RS6, 25-40k miles at least 1 year warranty left, £35,000.

Pro's:

Almost hysterically fast in a straight line
Fantastic motorway performance
Great interior and build
Great spec level
LOTS of luggage space
Done most of its depreciation
Audi image
Rarity / stealth
Auto box with paddle shift (good for me as I suffer tendonitis in my arms)

Con's:

10mpg (the way I'm likely to drive it)
Expensive servicing
Not the greatest when the road gets twisty / bumpy
Too heavy for serious track work (eats brakes and tyres)
Extending warranty will be pricey
Ground clearance going fully loaded up into mountain 'car parks'
IMHO it's starting to look dated

Forester Sti, Brand new circa £30k with the options I would want

Pro's:

Brand new, with 3 year warranty
Fantastic b-road performance, probably not far behind RS6 up to 100mph
Perfect for the bikes etc.
Rarity and Stealth
Cheaper to run, insure etc. than Audi
5k cheaper to buy initially
Better ground clearance
Plenty of modding options ()
Still a hoot on the occasional trackday
I don't have to spend ages shopping around for the right model 2nd hand
I don't have to give ar$ey Audi dealers the time of day

Con's:

Depreciation / resaleability
Interior / trim level ok but miles behind the Audi
Some may question the image (I would likely remove the sti badging and go fo black paint)
Not exactly the prettiest car in the world, but then, its basically an SUV what do you expect! (I actually don't mind it, and the other half actually likes it more than the RS6 )

Anyone care to share any experience or insight? Anything I've missed on the pro's and con's?

Naturally I will be taking test drives etc. over the next week or two

cheers

Ed

KiwiGTI

I'm not a fan of Audis personally, I think the image is very boring these days. The 2 cars are almost too different to compare really.

5th gear have an STI forester on tonight (Monday) so it may be worth watching.

stevem2k

Check the rear seat legroom in both - especially if you are tall and are going to be carrying passengers long distances.

Iain Lit/David Hendry carry a few pre-owned STi's that would save you a chunk of depreciation and maybe have some goodies already in place. 12months old and it would still have balance of warranty etc.


HTH

Steve

(slightly biased )

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

I've always been a fan of performance Audis, but I have to say a pre-registered or low mileage secondhand Forester STI would be my choice!

DaveMiddleton

I recently bought my first RS6(saloon) and agree with most of your comments. I would recommend the Forester from your requirements.
However car does far better than 10mpg driven fast (except probably on track). I had mine re-mapped to 515 BHP with a Milltek exhaust so like to drive quickly and I am tending to average about 16-17mpg. This is 3 mpg better than my previous 993TT, so I am happy.
Other one comment is that a stock RS6 will hit 100mph in circa 11.5 seconds with no great drama. Not much will come close . My bhp per ton is now exactly that of the new M5 (but with 4 wheel drive for those snowy days in Scotland).

big MO

Dave - 16-17???? Would hope for more. Mines doing that now in stock. Was hoping for 20 or over after the MRC treatment.

Ed - Both cars have their good and bad - you've outlined all those, bar the fact that 6's can be tuned to 600 horses with sufficient pesos. I chose the 6 for Q car reasons and wanting to sleep at nights over the STI. However, not putting the STI down, it is a cracking car tho. 6's are forever keeping me on brown alert!!!!!

Petem95

I actually quite like the Forester Sti - a bit quirky, and wouldnt get a 1st, let alone 2nd glace from most people - yet theyre surprisingly quick!

But come on, RS6 it has to be! Few have the means to get behind the wheel of one of these. You could give most Ferraris a run for their money - the image is much more business-like than the Forester, and runnings costs over a few years could well work out cheaper than the Forester if you factor in depreciation.

Mog

Everyone is talking about depreciation being the main downside to the Forester, I would have to disagree, the rarity of the car is keeping prices up and resaleability is only a prob if you do it privately as most people will tend to go to Iain or David because of their experience and stock.

I have had a couple of RS4's and looked at the RS6 when I sold my last one but went with the Forester and I'm on my second now....in black.

Mog

YHPM

Skittles

The RS6 and Forrester are in totally different leagues! Its like you can buy a new BMW 320d for the same money as a second hand M3 - with tonw would you pick?

PS I have tracked the RS6 three times now - its heavy but the wear is the same (tyres and brakes) as my E46 M3 - i.e. two track days plus 20k miles for new boots and pads.

I seriously doubt you will be getting 10mpg average. By way of comparison I got 7-8mpg (instant reading) at 170mph with the accelerator fully pressed in Germany last year.

I get c.15-18mpg for normal London driving and mid 20s for motorway @85-95mph.

PPS - you should add "lipstick-red interior" as a con against the Audi ;-)

occyvrs

Mercedes offers 349 horsepower in its E55 AMG? BMW will give you 394 with the M5? (old m5) Then Audi will produce 480. And so we get the RS6, a two-ton beast powered by a schmoozed-over version of the 4.2-litre 5-valve V8 used in the S8, featuring two turbochargers with twin air-to-air intercoolers, modified cylinder heads for better cooling, sodium-filled exhaust valves and freer-flowing intake and exhaust. Once out of their stables, the 480 horses pass through a 5-speed automatic transmission as featured on the A8 W12 , which incorporates shift paddles behind the steering wheel, the closest thing that will ever be offered to a fully manual transmission. There is quattro awd (the car is built by Quattro GmbH for Pete's sake!) which routes the power down to the 255/35ZR18 tires. Audi's glorious overkill (at least until the RS6 is outdone by the next contestant) will leave your mouth watering: 0-60 mph in 4.6 seconds and 0-125 (I'm sure this little tidbit of information will come in very handy in your daily commute) in 17.8. So, yes, it's faster than the M5! 174mph max nice!!!!

i mean i love the scoob but u know that one day ull drive past one and think damm that v8 just sounds lush age old problem with so many nice cars

plus how many do u really see day to day think ive seen 2 around this way in the past 5 years damm ive seen more supercars than these about but damm they look stunnging in person

Edcase

Oh, nice one! What a coincidence! Not up against an RS6 is it?

Should be very interesting.

Edcase

Thanks for all the input guys, I think now its going to be down to the hands-on approach

At the moment, purely subjectively, the Forester is ahead by the nose. My blue sky thinking is...get the Forester now, then be first on the list for the new RS6 Avant next year.

Bartop

Nope - head to head against a UK Impreza Sti - should be very interesting

Edcase

Well, I'm off to Audi Crawley at 2.30pm to test a misano red rs6 Avant with 30k on the clock

Might as well get that one out of the way first!

Steve vRS

Surely the Forester is too soft with loads of body roll for track days.

Steve

Deep Singh

Will you be able to get the Forester fixed easily if something goes wrong abroad? Or will they all scratch their heads and say wtf is that?

ps money maybe no object but be warned the new RS6 will come in close to £70k

Mog

There's always the Audi S6 with the V10 from the Lambo although slighty diluted and changed......

Mog

Edcase

Well, looks like I'm going to be the proud owner of a Misano Red 2003 RS6 Avant on Wednesday

First some considered impressions:

Looks fantastic in the metal. I always smile internally when people say things like that about cars, but I have to say static pictures just do not do the thing justice. I studied it for a good long while whilst the salesman dispatched with his previous clients, and the thing is just so well proportioned, lines in all the right places, and especially in the Misano red it just looks very very purposeful and understatedly sexy. It's a car that appreciates being looked at with a considered eye rather than clawing them out the first time you catch sight of it.

Build quality and interior is frankly leagues ahead of my 2002 Passat, which itself is very nicely built. The suede headlining, the carbon inserts, the seats...it feels like the almost £70k car it is. Frankly the Forester may have come on somewhat, but its on another planet compared to this.

Driving position is also great, you feel like you are 'in the car' not on it, and its immensely adjustable helped by some of the best seats I have sat in. Nice small steering wheel also fits the bill, and all round visibility is excellent. I was immediately taken by the fact that from the drivers seat it actually felt smaller than my Passat!

Engine note is the first obvious sign outside of the flared arches and drilled discs that the car is something more than a family runabout. Deep and sonorous as only a V8 can be. This is a 'windows down' car without a doubt. The kind of car that you have to consciously stop yourself from revving every time you are stationary, especially next to bus stops (or next to boy racers at traffic lights )

Immediate impressions on pulling away are pinpoint steering (this car has the 19inch wheels with PZeros) and beautiful weighting for a car that weighs 2 tonnes. Also the tangible tractability of the engine and drivetrain even at docile town speeds.

Brakes are equally progressive, I really wasn't expecting much in the way of 'touchy feely' with the controls, but Audi has done an amazing job it has to be said.

Now for the less considered impressions:

Woooooooooooooooooooooooahhhhhhh. Wooohooooooooooooooooo! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh......aaaaaaaahhhhhhhh hh...........wooooooooooooowooooooooooo! FFfffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu............ckkkkkkkkkkk kkkk!
Woah.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiii..................hhhooooooooo hooooooohooooooooooooooooo!!!!!


So. Power is adequate. Overtaking generally happens before you've had a chance to think about doing it. Frankly, it's the fastest thing I've ever driven, and I would imagine (without taking time to look) it would kill the previous fastest thing I'd driven (a Ferrari 355) to 100mph. We had a lad in a E46 M3 pull right next to us at the lights on the Gatwick junction of the M23 ready to head back on the mway to Crawley and he took one look at me, smiled right at me as if to say 'don't worry, I'm not even going to bother trying' before we both pulled away like a pair of grannies (right up until I nailed it on the slip road ).

On the way back down we came up behind a modded red RX8, who purposefully slowed and moved into the middle lane just to see/hear me thrust past him. I've never driven anything which has been shown so much respect on the road by other 'performance' car owners. I experienced it more times in a 45 minute test drive today than in 2 years of Scooby ownership.

Downsides?

Acceleration after 110mph to 120mph wasn't *quite* as fast as I expected, although naturally I didn't get to test that to the nth degree as we weren't on the private road for long

Also, I think I was kind of losing my objectivity by that point.

Gearbox also needs a bit of getting used to. The constant change-downs could get tiring and are hardly subtle, but to be honest i will likely get the 510bhp remap and gearbox remap which limits change downs and uses the extra torque instead.

Tramlining was notiecable on the b-roads, although with 19's and wide / low profile rubber that is to be expected and to be fair the multilink suspension did a pretty good job limiting the effects.

On-limit handling was also better than expected. Controlling the momentum seems to be the name of the game by keeping things smooth and balanced. It actually felt a little like a 2 tonne subaru, with initial understeer countered by light lifting of the throttle to unweight the outer rear. The esp was noticeable and unwanted...although I assume it can be turned off.

The car also does the best job of masking the numbers on the speedo of any car I've driven. On one stretch of private road very similar to a typical UK country b-road we were carrying well into 3-figures without even batting an eyelid. Even in the Subaru I would have been in 'fighter pilot mode', but we were wafting along, chatting and generally pretty relaxed.

One other thing I did notice was a surprising level of wind and road noise on the Mway, I guess largely again due to the big tyres. Still, surprising for a 'luxury' car. And cruising at 100mph / 3k rpm was returning around 25mpg which is better than expected.

So what about the Forester?

Well, I guess it's actually a case of 'so what?' about the Forester. As someone else said earlier, for the same kind of money, how can you take the Sti over the RS? Simply, you can't.

Unfortunately as it was 3.45 by the time we had finished up, the guy in finance couldn't see me in time, but after a call tomorrow morning, providing all goes well, she will be mine. Oh yes, she will be mine.

Oh, one thing I had to laugh at was the £3k trade in for my 2001 passat tdi pd130 sport. What's funnier is that I'll probably let them have it for that as I don't really have the time or inclination to sell privately

Anyone want a tdi bargain at £4k cash?

Edcase

Question for Dave Middleton. Can you describe the difference the remap has made? Headline performance figures, noise levels, objective seat of the pants performance, mpg and cost? Also did you get thte gearbox done at the same time? Did it affect your insurance much?

Finally, is the Misano red a good, bad or indifferent colour when it comes to resale time? (Black leather interior btw )

thanks
Ed

Mog

I've got to sat I loved the attention my Missano red RS4 got but do you want that, and as the RS6 is more "grown up" red is not the best colour for resale as most want the discrete colours.
As you say the build quality is fantastic but the only downside I had was the barge like or floateness around the corners.......but still enjoy.

Regards
Clive

Edcase

Clive - all good points, and yes I forgot to mention the 'floatyness' although it didn't feel like it was ever out of control or about to have an accident.

Regarding the red....well, I've never had a red car before for that very reason, my plan was always to wait until I could afford a Ferrari! Well, now I can afford one it doesn't currently fit in with my lifestyle and....well, let's be totally honest, I do like a *smidgen* of attention on the road. Having spent the time since I have been back home looking at other used RS6's I'm starting to think the grey looks a little too much like my Passat

Edited to add I will still watch 5th gear tonight with more than a passing interest...

occyvrs

good man im sooooo jealous i hope to have one by the time im 30!!!!

Edcase

I'm 30....just! My aim was always to have owned a Ferrari by the time I was 30 but the last 3 years have been spent putting every hour and every penny into the business, and now given I live in central London and only have one garage space, the RS6 is the car which comes closest in the aggregate to fulfilling my wide and varied wants and needs. Of course I'd love to have a prancing horse or even an M3 CSL in the garage, but I would quickly resent the limitations it will undoubtedly put on my lifestyle more than I actually enjoy the car. 5 years ago, it would have been CSL all the way. The exotica will come, as and when I have the right mix of circumstances to make ownership more of a pleasure than a pain.

JTaylor

Not read any other comments but.... RS6 by absolutely miles!!!

Edited to add: just read posts. Well done Ed, I'll let Jonesy know tonight.

big MO

Well done mate. Misano is very sexy. Welcome to the fold.

JTaylor

Skittles

Woo Hoo, the right choice. Congratulations mate...

Edcase

Pics of said car. The Misano red is actually deeper than it looks in the pics.

http://www.supercar.co.uk/UsedCarIma...idth=78&Height
http://www.supercar.co.uk/UsedCarIma...idth=78&Height
http://www.supercar.co.uk/UsedCarIma...idth=78&Height

Jim, if I sign on the dotted line on Weds I will be down at the next possible weekend for the drive, in which case I will doubtless pop in and see Jonesy. Will let you know. Did you decide on the Elise in the end?

DaveMiddleton

Remap is definitely noticeable and it will pull 140 plus on any straight . It goes past a friend's E46 M3 like it was a mini. Noise level with the Milltek is marginally up inside the car ( I can now hear the V8). too early to know objectively about MPG. Yes, I got gearbox re mapped also.
Mine is Mugello blue with silver leather, but I have seen a Misano red estate and thought it looked great. Fabulous everyday motor.

GCollier

Congrats on the car! The comments you've made show you're pretty clued up on the car already - all I'd add is that the car is simply even better to own than ever comes across in a test drive. I've had my RS6 for 16 months now and I still can't think of anything I'd swap it for.

I don't think red is the best colour for resale, probably silver is followed by the other dark colours (excluding green). I can't help but thinking that this is mainly due to the sheep-like "exec car must be dark metallic syndrome" though, as misano red does look stunning in the flesh. Anyway audi dealers definitely buy in red RS6's so I wouldn't worry too much.

Gary.