J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I seem to be hearing a lot about German motors being unreliable, recently my father in laws C class estate has been with the dealer for a month on and off for a couple of problems but mainly the aircon, now fixed but they cocked other things up in the process, they gave him a Smart car and he isnt amused. Mates Passat is a bag of poo apparently, always needing warranty work so he wont be buying another VW, Our Sharan requires a new Dashboard as it has cracked at 10,000 miles and its going to need its third set of anti roll bar links.

Have also read the results of a Which survey where Rover products do better reliability wise, the German stuff never does that well in JD Power either.


So anybody else thinking the same ?

tiggers

My mate runs a garage and services all sorts of vehicles usually after they have come out of warranty (3 years old and older).

He says that in his experience the build quality of German marques has diminished greatly in the last five years with VW, Mercedes and BMW all being shadows of their former selves.

Interestingly enough he ranks most of the Japanese firms as still being the best, but reckons Subaru's build quality is getting suspect in certain areas despite the fact he actually owns a Scooby.

tiggers.

Midmotorsteve

I agree last 7-8 years the quality of the cars has fallen dramatically. A 1990 - 1992 Merc, BMW, VW/Audi were built like tanks that will go on forever. Get a 1996 on car Merc in particularly and it'll be back and fore to the garage forevermore, electrical faults mostly. True of other manufactures as well i think, quality used to mean last forever solid cars, now it seems to just mean looks nice & have a million and 1 uselss gadgets. I think they design them with a workable life of 3 years these days, once out of warrantee the dealers don't want to know about trade in etc. If over 3 years they are shipped off to car supermarkets and disowned.

CLSII

I bought an A Class. I know it's only a baby Merc but I can quite happily say it was the worse car I have ever had. The list of things that went wrong with it was ridiculous to say it was brand new. The attitude of the garage where I had it serviced was also appalling. They treated me like dirt.

Needless to say I bought japanese after this and have never (touchwood) had a problem at all.

Another family member was so disgusted with the way they where treated when their £25,000 second hand Merc had a series of problems they got rid of it and bought a Toyota.

Some neighbours also traded their Mercs in for Hondas because they were sick of the dealership and numerous niggles with the cars reliability.

I always thought I'd buy a Mercedes later on in life but I look at them as an inferior brand now. They seem to have lost their cast iron quality image.

CLSII

logiclee

Wifes uncle has had Mercs since the early 80's. He says things have gone massively down hill since the early 90's.

He had a 95 M reg 300D and he says that was the last well bult quality car he's had.
After that he bought an E300TD which was a pile of crap, the dealer didn't want to know and after a court battle with Merc UK he had it replaced with another car that still rattled and failed to start in cold weather.
Fed up with Merc he bought a BMW 530D Tourer which again was problem ridden and he even had the rear suspension collapse in France on booze cruise. (Before he had loaded it up)
Fed up with BMW he went back to Merc and bought a new Merc E320CDi Estate last September. So far it's been back to the dealers four times, three for small trim issues then last Month the Auto box exploded on the M5. He uses a dealer 30 miles away as he's fallen out with the three local Merc dealers.

His next car will not be German.

Cheers
Lee

mynickers

Nearly always Jap cars that come top in J D Power survey, based on 23,641 owners and their experience..

http://www.whatcar.com/News_SpecialR...&EL_ID=3060984

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Wow, wasnt trying to be contreversial (much) but expected a bit of a minor flaming but it seems so far that others are indeed having the same problems with german cars.

Funny how things turn round, have never once heard a bad thing about Lexus and a recent problem a Jaguar owning freind had was dealt with in such a positive manner by the dealer that I couldnt comprehend the level of service provided.

I wonder if the problems with German cars can be charted against the way their economy has gone, i.e. used to be built to a standard and now are built to a price, I remember when a Merc was a top of the line posh car, now every 'executive' style Barratt house has a couple outside.

Or is it that cars are just getting to complex ?

J4CKO, looking for vindication regarding the purchase of a Fiat Coupe !

Bobby Peru

Problems?

Have had 18 German cars over the last 5 years and never had a problem with any.

Petem95

My old man always runs Audi's and theyre amazingly reliable. Got 250k out of his old Audi 80 - only major thing needed was clutch at 180k.

He changed that for an A4 which he still has - thats now on 160k with no major faults at all.

Agree they probably arent as good as they once were - Mk2 Golf design spec was to last 12years, Mk3 was only designed to last 8...

Midmotorsteve

18 in the last 5 years, is that cause your afraid to keep them for more than 4 months incase they fall apart??

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I think the explaination with the downfall of the German marques is down to the increased complexity.

Back in the mid 80's mercs were tanks and Beamers and VAG's weren't far off either. There was less to go wrong with them, they had really basic EFi, mechanical autoboxes, no DSC/ASC traction control, basic ABS, a bog standard Blaupunkt and nothing much else.

These days there is alot more to them, the tourers have self levelling suspension (bear in mind in the 80's jag XJ40 first had it...but abondoned it as it was too complex unreliable and lets not talk of citreon shall we ). Engines use Niaksil plated bores, which fell foul to high sulphur fuel. Auto Gearboxes depended on electronic sensors, actuator and controllers to change gear as opposed to pressure controlled valves. Engines use fly by wire throttle, individual coil packs, and distributorless ignition, CAN bus. Then theres the climate control - all electronic, no mechanically controlled flaps. I could go on and on listing what these cars have that they didn't 15-20 years ago.

There is just far more to go wrong on them now. Most german Marques are executive marques, so have alot more toys. Japanease cars generally aren't, with the only exception of Lexus. Bear in mind the likes of Range Rover and Jaguar are equally problamatic, so it's not just the German marques. That's why the corolla is high on the JD power survey - it is a low spec car, there literally isn't as much to go wrong on it.

It's no excuse for them not to sort it, but I think it certainly explains alot.

H7

That, and not all "German" cars are made in Germany now. Mercedes-Benz, for example, makes some cars in Spain and in the US and quality control is definitely more suspect outwith the German manufacturing plants.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

That is true too...some VW's are also spanish built too

what would scooby do

A few months ago I owned a 1990 Merc 300E 24V, for a 14 year old car it was superb, very comfy, very tight and no rattles.. amazing really..

mass production now means you get mopre lemons etc

Manda_po

What is/are "mopre lemons"?

imlach

Well, recently had a 1989 Merc 230E 4dr saloon, which I sold to a friend, and now on a 1991 Merc 230TE estate. Both are tanks However, they just keep going & going, without much in the way of maintenance.......

My estate hardly creaks at all. Central locking is all done using a vacumm system - so no electronics to go wrong for example.....just perishing of rubber airlines over decades I guess....

Unfortunate it doesn't have aircon, as that'll probably be why I have to change it soon....shame. Was thinking of a newer E-Class, but know too many who have had late 90's models with problems....

gsm1

The only German vehicle I have owned was a '88 VW Transporter Van and it was a solid piece of kit. From experience with friends and family who have owned german motors, especially recent models, I think the reliability is overrated.

what would scooby do

silent P - now get back to the hutch

what would scooby do

Also the 2000 SLK 320 and 2001 CLK 430 where perfect, no issues at all..

krisby

My 1990 BMW 525i is going ok, its at that stage where maintenace is necessary, eg fuel pump shat itself recently and the TPS needs adjusting at the next service, but apart from that very reliable, 180,000k and still feels mint. IMO the E34 Bimmer as the best and most reliable, and ageless shape and no hint of ****e quality. Its got thing to go wrong like a digital onboard computer, AC, central locking and those german titbits like auto window closing (when you lock the car).

As for Jap cars not being as advanced as german cars? I daresay a mid 90s Jap exec mob has as much in it as a BMW or Merc. My other car, a 1995 Mitsubishi Diamante has all you could want, 5 speed auto and tiptronic, and computer controlled (no levers all cable from the gear stick), auto climate control, electric seats, digital trip computers, backlit dash, foot operated parking brake, CD/cassette desk as standard (though I replaced mine with a pioneer version) and the stock speakers are amazing quality, no visible external aerial either, mines hidden in the rear windscreen, airbags, TC, ASC, the list goes on.

Perhaps today jap cars are not quite up there as you don't often see the large LCD screen to control all sorts of the car, but then hear in NZ, I would pay $NZ45k (£15k) for an AWD Diamante with all the bells and whistles, and about $NZ100k for the base model 5 Series beemer.

Though a Ford Falcon XR8 (5.4L V8)or XR6 (4L straight 6) do have those multimedia/AC/etc screens starting at $50000.

So I would not blame the technology, if they can't build it reliably, they should not build it at all. It would seem that whilst Jap build quality has got better, and the gadgets as standard increases, the german marques have declined. But then I have neve been a fan of Merc anyway, (for the retired generation IMO) and the new bangle bimmers are horrible to look at.

Thats enough about that, I want to talk about Subarus...

Mmmmm

5 BMWs in a row, poor soft paint on two (scratch too easily), no other problems at all

2 porkers no problems

3 mercs,
ML very short ownership no probs,
Previous s class front suspension subframe replaced,
Current car, has had to be jumped started several times , has had two new batteries, automatic wipers broken twice, Command sat nav system often does not detect the phone or CD, fake airbag faults, seat belt locks and won't unfurl.

ScoobyDoo555

Tiggers wrote would your mate care to elaborate?

Dan

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

The paint thing strikes a chord, My father in law refused a Smart car for the last dealer visit to fix the stereo so for his impertinence they saddled him with a 1.6 Vaneo, I dont know whose idea this thing was but what an ugly ******, anyway it mnaged to drag itself the mile or so to the shops and back so it didnt break down but the paint was crap, orange peel effect.

Dont get me wrong I like German cars and have owned several but I think Ali B hit the nail on the head with the complexity thing.

tiggers

He is of the opinion that if you look at things like the interiors, suspension, some body panels etc. while there is no doubt they look better or perform to higher specifications than earlier cars they will not last as long simply due to not being of the same quality.

Having owned 4 Scoobs I tend to agree with him. Build quality and faults have definitely got worse the newer the cars have got. My 1997 model never rattled and nothing ever went wrong with it. It's a pity the same can't be said of my 03 STI which has been back to the dealers twice already for faults and has rattled since the day we got it.

tiggers.

Kevin Groat

Owned a E30 318i (89 car) for 5 years, no major probs.
Replaced it with an E36 325 TDS SE, purchased 3 yrs old and 40 k miles. In the next 18 months it broke 3 coil springs, collapsed both rear swinging arm bushes, needed both front track control ball joints replaced as well as both rear shock absorber top bushes. Phoned dealer to order rear swing arm bushes and explained I wasn't sure if that was the prob as I hadn't removed the arm yet to be told it will be the bushes, they all do that......At the same time I had the BMW TDS, I also ran a 6 year old Subaru 1.6 dl estate, bought with 40 k miles on it for £500. Ran it for 4 years, never serviced it at all and it never needed a thing - Hence an sti v3 replaced the BMW and it's never missed a beat in 5 years. German cars - you can keep em.....mind you, still hanker after a 911 turbo

pslewis

Brother-in-Law has just bought a new Merc. worst buy of his life ..... the thing is, German cars rely on their percieved quality to get buyers - lose that and lose everything!

Lexus are getting it spot-on, everytime.

The Japanese cars are taking their time to become percieved as quality items - but they will get there.

BMW, Merc and VW/Audi have real big problems .... they are now a by-word for piles of crap!

Pete

MGJohn

Having said all that, there's one Merk I'd really like to have warts and all... you can keep the rest. That Merk? ... the 300SL ... 1955 Vintage with the Gull Wing doors .. .. visual automotive perfection in this observer's eyes and not equalled by anything since although the first of the Jaguar E-types came close. It's noteworthy that both the E-Type and the 300SL had true competition thoroughbred backgrounds.

The later open 300SL tourers with conventional doors are quite nice too. Mercedes-Benz 'peaked' with those fabulous 1950s 300SLs and sadly, visually and from other aspects it appears the three pointed star has rolled downhill ever since.... modern Merks with their namby-pamby toys just arn't the same but, lots of punters still like them.

MGJohn

More seriously, BMW, Mercedes and Audi have over the last decade or so built cars to offer the punters at "Ford" prices. That I'm convinced would have something to do with it.Twenty years ago, a neighbour told me he had a new Mercedes on order and had recently been imformed by the dealership that "the chassis has been laid" . He was serious and believed all that stuff. Many still do. That's how myths are born.

Funny old game people and cars...