BoxerFlat4

Right, easy enough question : over the next few months, the Impreza will almost certainly be going, to be replaced by something german. I've narrowed it down to between the Audi S4 and BMW M3 : I'll be keeping it at least 3-4 years, and probably selling my soul in order to purchase it. Priorities are :-

. Should be reliable
. Should be relaxed to drive when I want it to be.
. Should be fun to drive when I want it to be.

Currently leaning more towards the Audi, although the better residuals on the M3 mean financially it would be the better choice. Also a little concerned about what I've heard regarding Audi after-sales care, or apparant lack of it. Only real issue I've got with the Beemer is that too many tossers drive them where I am (Cheshire), and it's only got 2WD and 2 doors : potentially starting a family in the above time period, so the greater practicality and safety of 4WD and 4 doors would be handy.

Thoughts ? Comments ? Opinions ?

[Edited by BoxerFlat4 - 1/3/2004 5:35:56 PM]

AllanB

I've always found VAG group cars rather underwhelming to drive. Sort of lifeless steering and switch on or off brakes. Build quality should be top notch though.

I knw a couple of people with M3s and they have had terrible trouble and very poor service from BMW.

I'd probaly go the M3 route as its a real drivers car but its not an easy one.

Legacy B4 ?

AllanB

richmilly

A4 Avant much more practical than M3 coupe
And long term residuals will be better

chaos.

Does the S4 sound anything like as good as the M3?
I think it looks too much like the standard A4,,
boring.

cha0s

Jeff Wiltshire

The new V8 S4 is a very nice car, it's comfortable, very quick and understated but is not a real compeditor to the M3....The new RS4 which is likely to be the 4.2 V8 with Twin Turbos and 450BHP will be Audi's answer to the M3 CSL (the car is likely to come in under 1300Kg apparently).

AmD have had over 400BHP from the 4.2 V8 S4 with a exhaust and remap...

There will always be more M3s sold than S4s so I'm not sure about the residuals....and then there is always the 'Bling' image of the M3. Buy a S4 Avant manual in a dark colour or Nagoro Blue and you'll be looking at a residual value of 50-55% after 3 years judging buy the previous model.

The downside to the S4 is the fuel consumption 18-20 mph ....Have a look at www.rs246.com and ask owners of the new S4 what they think.

Flat 4x4

How about an old shape RS4 Avant ?

I was at Mottram Hall over the New Year, and amidst all the BMWs. Mercs, Porsche Cayennes etc, I still like the purposeful but understated looks of a black RS4 !

If I was spending the sort of money you are contemplating, I don't care what people say about 'pure handling RWD', I would buy a 4WD car any day. I would put up with being boring by being able to put all the power down all the time and have generally higher reserves in unexpectedly tricky conditions...

Deep Singh

Flat, I'm sort of in a similar situation. Also consider the C32 AMG. I drove one and was very impressed, I preferred it to the M3 but I have'nt as yet driven the S4. I found the M3 to be very much a drivers car but because of that not different enough to my modded STi7(apart from the badge kudos of course). The C32 gives that extra comfort, space and rarity value. Defo worth a look.

BoxerFlat4

Thanks for the replies !

Deep Singh - I had considered the Mercedes, but wasn't convinced it met my needs. Plus equipment levels on most Mercedes are pretty slim, which meant bumping up the price beyond what I really wanted to spend. Might have another look, though.

Jeff Wiltshire - Agree about the RS4, but I suspect price wise it would be have to be more than £40K, which is my spending limit. I'd love one of the RS models, but the price is simply beyond my means. I've already been lurking on www.rs246.com for a couple of days, plan on asking some questions soon. Seems both Audi and BMW customer service can leave alot to be desired, and from what I can gather Audi's supply chain for parts isn't up to speed regarding the S4 yet.

As far as the residuals, the figures I've seen reckon after 3 years the M3 is worth 55%, where the S4 only 45-50% (not much, but they make a difference to the PCP payments, I can tell you !). I kinda like the stealthy appeal of the S4 but am worried that I might be a bit "underwhelmed" by it.

Incidentally, found the Top Gear M3 vs S4 test with Clarkson : interestingly, in a pure straight line fight the M3 won, but around the circuit with Stig the S4 was almost a second faster !

Keep the comments coming, guys.

oreA

Just to pick up on one point you've made there BoxerFlat4, the C32 AMG (unlike other Mercs) comes loaded. As standard you get rain sensing wipers, auto-headlights, auto-courtesy headlights, electric driver and passenger seats both with memory (also includes steering column), heated seats, Bose, 6CD, centre armrest, auto-dimming rear view mirror, auto dimming drivers side mirror, auto-dipping passenger mirror & more. IIRC none of these are standard on the S4, dunno about the M3.

You also might want to read this review, it's really positive about both the C32 & S4, the M3 isn't included because it doesn't fit the bill (i.e. 2 dr coupe, not 4 dr family etc)

Silver Bullets

Happy shopping.

[Edited by oreA - 1/4/2004 3:11:01 PM]

Bobby Peru

Don't forget the e46 3-series is due to be replaced in 2005, current A4 not 'till 2007+

mutant_matt

I assume you are talking about an E46 M3? If so, IMHO, there is no comparison. The M3 is a fantastic car in pretty much every way and I am sure if you were to drive both, you'd agree. The only think wrong with the M3 IMHO is a) the price (), b) the steering is not very "talkative". The other trouble with the M3 is the amount of toys you are tempted to load it up with and spend loads of money

M3, proper drivers car IMHO though I'm not sure I'd have the SMG.

Matt

Jeff Wiltshire

The other issue with the M3 is the image of course.....

BoxerFlat4

lol - I agree with the image problem, where I am a M3 is usually driven by somebody who couldn't even spell "oversteer", let alone explain it. Which is a shame, because I'm sure it's a very good car : the rarity and subtly of the S4 is growing on me, and the practicality of having 5 doors and 4WD is important to me.

Has anybody got any experience with the Audi triptronic gearbox : is it any good ? ( I know all about the M3 system, someone I know had one of the first SMG M3, and I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole ).

chaos.

Why is that
I think its much more of a 'drivers car' with that kind of trans.

Scoobs_4ever

I've just changed from a Scoob to a Tiptronic A4 2.5 V6 TDi quattro. I know its quite an S4 but I am more than happy with the new car.

I can only guess what an M3 is like but I can comment on the A4 part.

The only bad thing I can say is that the A4 does seem to detach the driver from the road - you dont get the feedback like in the Scoob - the power steering 'dulls' any sensation of loss of grip.

On the other hand, I can corner as fast as I did in the Scoob and can overtake comfortably as and when. I know I'm biased but I prefer the looks of the Audi, especially with the quattro body kit which should be standard on the S4. I think the Audi looks more descrete.

The tiptronic is taking me some time to get used to it. Damn thing always wants to shift down coming upto roundabouts or mid-corner. The way out of this is to leave the thing in cruise control! I would say the tiptronic is more suited to relaxed driving than the quick stuff. In manual mode the gear changes are very smooth, but the car will do gear changes going up the box when you hit the rev limit. Going down the gear box is similar, when you reach the slowest speed for the gear the car will change the gear.

The ride is hard-ish but so much smoother than the Scoob and you don't make as much noise, mind you that was probably the decat more than anything. The inerior is soooooo much better than a Scoob but I think better than any 3 Series. Build quality is excellent but I'm sure the M3 would be the same.

Overall, I would say the Audi is a smooth, relaxing, stylish and quick enough drive.

What would you do with the extra 1 second the M3 gives you around a race track? Get to work 1 second quicker?

Andy.

Jeff Wiltshire

I've driven the new S4 with the Semi-Auto box with the paddles and I've also driven the manual. I prefer the manual for the pure driving aspect but when your sitting in a traffic queue or driving around town the semi-auto would be a nice to have....

I think the resale on the manual will be higher than the tip. If you want to maximise your residual value get a Manual Avant in the dark mettalic blue and load it with the toys....

mutant_matt

Jeff and chaps,

Yes I understand about the image but at the end of the day, don't we mostly buy a car that suits our criteria that is good to drive. If I worried about image, I'd get rid of the Scoob Let people think what they like about the M3, YOU know it's a great car and isn't that what it's about?

My comments about the SMG are based on the SMG2 and I would say it's a very impressive bit of kit. The only thing is, I still like the satisfaction you get when you do a perfectly timed heal and toe downchange, something the SMG robs you of, as it does it perfectly for you. I also haven't driven the SMG1 so I don't know what it's like having to use the stick to change, but the SMG2 with the steering wheel paddles is very good and I would have to drive the manual and the SMG2 back to back to decide. I also like the fact that you can put it in fully auto mode when you are tired/stuck in a jam etc and I bet it ROCKS on track days!

Matt

chaos.

I think the SMG ROCKS! Its so rapid, fast and beautiful..

ahh....

Thats why I want an M3

Spudgun VI

has to be the m3. when audi bring out the new rs4 (whenever that is) then i'll have a look at one, but till then im keeping my e46 m3. ive modded plenty of jap cars over the last few years, and achieved big bhp etc with all of 'em, yet the m3 i have now (although far less bhp) is a far better allrounder in just about every way.
for 38k ive got an m3 in technoviolet, with smg, tv and satnav, heated leather, the list goes on. i could take an evo/scooby etc, spend 20k on it, and although i'd have more bhp, would i have such a good allround car as an m3? hmmm, i honestly dont think so.

its understated, yet imho, its one of the most beautiful cars in production. it doesnt attract the plebs like an evo/scooby does, yet the women love it
it relaxes me if i only want to bimble home, yet thrills if i wanna be a hooligan. the brakes are fab, it grips like a good 'un, and the engine sounds and goes fantastic,and the interior shames most other cars.
the service ive had from my bmw dealer is superb, and its a lot less to insure than all the modded jap cars ive had.

i cannot fault the e46 m3 with smg in any way. i absolutely love it

oreA

Quote "i cannot fault the e46 m3 with smg in any way"

It lacks 2 doors.
It costs £38k and yet you see 'em everywhere.

Spudgun VI

thats why i said "i" cannot fault it, not nobody can fault it. i cannot, yet you can. each to their own.
and you see them 'everywhere' because a lot of people agree with my opinion.

Jeff Wiltshire

My only experience of the new M3 was following one driven by a guy I know at a recent Oulton Park track day....It seemed to perform well enough on the track but to my surprise it didn't pull away at all from my S4. The track was damp to start and I was able to move away from him with some easy and as the track dryed out this became more difficult but at no point was the M3 pulling on my MY99 S4 even when it was bone dry. We where both using Michelin Pilot Sports and his M3 has SMG. My S4 has standard suspension at the moment which didn't help....

Bobby Peru

With 400bhp, what did you expect??!!

oreA

My reference to "it lacks two doors" relates to BoxerFlat4's initial comment "..potentially starting a family in the above time period, so the greater practicality and safety of 4WD and 4 doors would be handy"

And my reference to "you see them everywhere" relates to BoxerFlat4's other comment at the start of the thread "Only real issue I've got with the Beemer is that too many tossers drive them where I am"

BoxerFlat4

Plenty busy in here tonight ...

Lots of feedback, all of it appreciated. Also, I think we all need to remember it's horses for courses, what suits one driver won't suit another. I fully appreciate the M3's abilities : just because some people who drive M3's are idiots, doesn't mean all M3 drivers are idiots. It annoys me a little though, seeing a performance vehicle being driven badly and incompetently by idiots. Hey ho, what are you to do, eh ?

Scoobs_4ever - Thanks for the mention re: Tiptronic box, made interesting reading. My dilemna is that communting makes up alot of my normal driving, hence my interest in the tip-box. Seems to me that you saying the best way of driving it is to leave it in manual mode, and shift as you wish ? As far as the "feedback" issue re: steering, in some ways I am almost looking for that, as sometimes I feel the Impreza gives you too much information when you simply want to bumble along.

Jeff Wiltshire - The spec you've mentioned is very close to my own thoughts , although I had considered Nogaro Blue and red.

oreA - the comment "..potentially starting a family in the above time period, so the greater practicality and safety of 4WD and 4 doors would be handy" probably indicates that I'm already trying to figure out how to justfy the expense to the other half ! Especially as we're getting married this year.

As ever, much appreciated. I think the only way I can resolve this is to personally try them both out.

Jeff Wiltshire

I thought that with the transmission loses and his suspension it would be closer than it was.....

Nogaro or Red I would think will be '2nd' string colours for a resale....Silver (Avus) or dark metalic blue (Mugello ?) are likely to maximise resale.
Looks great!

With a Milltek exhaust and a remap it's 400BHP and a noise like a NASCAR from the V8



Too subtle ?

[Edited by Jeff Wiltshire - 1/5/2004 6:06:41 AM]

NOZZER

Spudgun,
Im also looking at a M3, did you buy yours through a dealer? And you like the SMG? How different is it to your evo?
Ive got a P1 at the mo and i drove a dealers m3 conv saturday, was impressed, wouldn't get the soft top though.

workshy_fopp

You can get £2700 off the Audi list price, making it about £33,500, and just over a grand off the BM if you go through a car broker. Both UK main dealer supplied.

Deep Singh

Let me just state first that I think the M3 is a great car. All those who have one have spent their money well. However as OreA points out it is not without issues ie

1) Common(relatively of course)
2)I found the engine note intrusive and not pleasant.
3)Though interior is nicer than a Scoob its not luxurious. Its also quite cramped and I'm only 6foot.
4) Boot is very small ie at least 25% smaller than my Scoob.
5) Being a coupe the doors weigh a bloody ton! ( ok I'm nitpicking now!)

Anyway good luck with whatever car you decide to buy.

Spudgun VI

hi nozzer
i loved my evo, i really did. yet for some strange reason i havent really missed it
hand on heart, i just think the m3's THAT good. wished i'd bought this kind of car a few years back and saved a fortune modding jap cars. i think the m3's in a different league. only my opinion, and its not worth much, but its my honest one

oh, and i for one think the smg's the dogs b0ll0cks. no more snatchy heavy clutches for me, auto mode when i cant be ar5ed, paddles/gearshift when i can be. best of both worlds. wonderful bit of kit!